Liverpool FC Forum

[Feeney]

Can we win the League Title this season?

Quite a contentious question, which no doubt will have been asked in many households and bars in LFC land.

Personally, I have my doubts that we can stay toe to toe over the course of a season. Chelsea have just bought 2 of the top 5 players in the world (Ronaldhino, Henry, Shevchenko, Ballack and Kaka IMO) and bolstered the remaining side with Kalou, Mikel and probably, soon to be Ashley Cole (who, admittedly, can't defend, but in a side like Chelsea's, it won't matter).

We also, have made signings, but at the moment, I have more reservations than excitement. In Bellamy, I think we have a player that has real quality who has an eye for goal, but not an exceptional one.

Gonsalez has flattered to deceive in the pre-season games so far (IMO, having seen first hand against Crewe, he was very poor) and I think this season will be more transitional for him than spectacular.

Pennant. Firstly, we paid far too much for him and I think we've been (on cost) done over like a kipper. My first reaction to his signing was that we have signed a big fish in a relagated pond who's got a criminal conviction. In any other business, that would constitute a huge risk for any employer and I don't see why that is different now. He can get crosses in which is certainly something we were lacking when Crouch was on the field but I do feel that he won't be used as an out n out winger to supply crosses all day.

With the players Rafa has signed, I can see us going back to the formation he started with last year - 4-2-3-1. Rafa wants to envelop teams with wave after wave of attacks to really kill games - in England, a game isn't over until it's at least 3-0 - and he wants to fend off any sort of retaliation from an opponent until the result is beyond doubt.

Chelsea over the last 2 years in the league have been simply unstoppable. They have exuded brilliance at times and grinded out results when required. However, I would say one chink  is visable.

Their reliability on Frank Lampard  - namely, his goals.

The signing of Ballack could have an unsettling effect on Lampard and as we have seen with Lampard and Gerrard in the England team, playing 2 players of a similar style nulifies the teams effectiveness by a huge amount. Lampard could find this season more difficult with the signing of Ballack and while i'm sure Ballack will score goals, I don't believe he will have the effectiveness or respect of opposing players as Lampard in the Prem.

Shevchenko, however, will carry on where he left off - scoring goals. No doubt.

So, back to my original question - Can we win the League Title this season? 

Honestly, I wll say YES - but I do believe it will only happen if luck is on our side with regard to unsettled players, hopefully injuries to key players (no serious, I stress as I wouldn't wish that on anyone) and majority of our new signings settling in and performing brilliantly.

Not much to ask, but what do you think? 

[Bad Bob]

Can we win the League Title this season?

Quite a contentious question, which no doubt will have been asked in many households and bars in LFC land.

Personally, I have my doubts that we can stay toe to toe over the course of a season. Chelsea have just bought 2 of the top 5 players in the world (Ronaldhino, Henry, Shevchenko, Ballack and Kaka IMO) and bolstered the remaining side with Kalou, Mikel and probably, soon to be Ashley Cole (who, admittedly, can't defend, but in a side like Chelsea's, it won't matter).

We also, have made signings, but at the moment, I have more reservations than excitement. In Bellamy, I think we have a player that has real quality who has an eye for goal, but not an exceptional one.

Gonsalez has flattered to deceive in the pre-season games so far (IMO, having seen first hand against Crewe, he was very poor) and I think this season will be more transitional for him than spectacular.

Pennant. Firstly, we paid far too much for him and I think we've been (on cost) done over like a kipper. My first reaction to his signing was that we have signed a big fish in a relagated pond who's got a criminal conviction. In any other business, that would constitute a huge risk for any employer and I don't see why that is different now. He can get crosses in which is certainly something we were lacking when Crouch was on the field but I do feel that he won't be used as an out n out winger to supply crosses all day.

With the players Rafa has signed, I can see us going back to the formation he started with last year - 4-2-3-1. Rafa wants to envelop teams with wave after wave of attacks to really kill games - in England, a game isn't over until it's at least 3-0 - and he wants to fend off any sort of retaliation from an opponent until the result is beyond doubt.

Chelsea over the last 2 years in the league have been simply unstoppable. They have exuded brilliance at times and grinded out results when required. However, I would say one chink  is visable.

Their reliability on Frank Lampard  - namely, his goals.

The signing of Ballack could have an unsettling effect on Lampard and as we have seen with Lampard and Gerrard in the England team, playing 2 players of a similar style nulifies the teams effectiveness by a huge amount. Lampard could find this season more difficult with the signing of Ballack and while i'm sure Ballack will score goals, I don't believe he will have the effectiveness or respect of opposing players as Lampard in the Prem.

Shevchenko, however, will carry on where he left off - scoring goals. No doubt.

So, back to my original question - Can we win the League Title this season? 

Honestly, I wll say YES - but I do believe it will only happen if luck is on our side with regard to unsettled players, hopefully injuries to key players (no serious, I stress as I wouldn't wish that on anyone) and majority of our new signings settling in and performing brilliantly.

Not much to ask, but what do you think? 

You raise some interesting points, mate...

To answer the big question first: yes, I think we've got a shot but it won't be easy and it will require an entire season's worth of effort.  No early season or mid-winter blips this campaign if we want to push Chelsea.

The keys for me:

1) A very strong start to get the winning habit established and to keep pace with Chelsea, whom we must presume will be out of the blocks quickly as well

2) Avoiding significant injuries to key players (the likes of Gerrard, Alonso, Sissoko, Carragher, Finnan, Reina).  We were very fortunate last season with injuries--long may that continue

3) Doing much better against Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal in league games this season.  Our form against our main competitors let us down last season.  Forget the title implications for a second: had we won that game against the Mancs at OT, for instance, we'd only be sweating the Charity Shield on the back of those 3 friendly losses rather than a vital CL qualifier.

If these three things go our way, we'll be there or there abouts this season, IMO.

Now, to some of your other comments...

First, I presume you are talking top 5 players in the world, Steven Gerrard excluded?  I just can't see Ballack in that list ahead of him.  Matter of fact, I have a hard time with Ballack in there period.  I may be in the minority here but I find Ballack long on pout and short on impact.  I personally think he'll have an indifferent campaign with Chelsea and will primarily, as you say, serve to unsettle Lampard and the existing Chelsea midfield shape.  His signing really doesn't worry me.

Now, Shevchenko on the other hand is indeed cause for concern--particularly since Jose's making lots of noise about playing plenty of 4-4-2 this time round.  Switching up a system that works is risky but Sheva's the kind of forward that can smooth the learning curve and get the new set-up ticking over.  If he settles quickly and starts scoring like he's capable of, we may see a lot fewer of Chelsea's infamous 1-0 grind-em-out results, which can only be bad news for our title chances.  Let's hope England doesn't suit him!

On our new boys, I see where you're coming from but I have more optimism, I guess.  I think Bellamy's ready to take the step up to the big time--both in terms of attitude and in terms of impact on the pitch.  He may not have set the scoring table alight in the past but I think he'll really do the business for us up front.

As for Gonzales, I can't disagree that he's had a poor pre-season by all accounts (even Rafa's).  He will take some time to settle, it seems.  But, we have options down the left so it's not like we're pinning all of our hopes on the kid.  He'll have the time he needs to come to grips with the English game.  Hopefully it won't take the whole season! 

I will disagree with you that we paid "far" too much for Pennant, however.  Sure, he was over-priced but all English talent is.  Like Bellamy, though, I think the gamble's worth it.  The lad is clearly a talented footballer and I think Rafa has enough about him as a man manager to get the best from the kid.  Throw in the influence of senior players like Fowler and I hold out hope that he'll mature into a decent kid and a damn good player.  Given some of the silly money that was being asked for unproven (in England) foreign talent like Alves or Simao, I'll take my chances on bit of a scally who's got lots of promise and is already comfortable in the league.   

Also, I'm a bit confused why you don't think he'll be used as an out-and-out winger?  I'd think that's what he'll be exclusively used for in games where we want to play a straightforward 4-4-2 with width and pace to stretch limited opposition.  In games the require a bit more tactical guile, I suspect we'll see more of Gerrard in that part of the pitch--especially if we play...

4-2-3-1.  I totally agree with you about seeing plenty of that formation this season.  Rafa now has the personnel (well, we could still use a striker who can be really comfortable in a lone role up top) to make this formation work and with lots of exciting and quite unpredictable permutations (in terms of subs or players swapping wings in the course of play etc).  If we can start to dominate teams--in terms of goals not just possession!--with this formation this season I actually think that 4-4-2 will become a much rarer sight under Rafa.

[laza]

I would say we have a good chance of putting a decent challenge for the title. Though realistically we will needs some favours from other teams to help us get there. Chelseas Gold plated Rouble team will be the benchmark but team of superstars doesnt necessarily equate to superstar team ala Real Madrid.


On Pennant issue, I think your being a little harsh about price, while he wouldnt have been my choice. I thought the money paid isnt too bad considering the English factor.
Also remembering that Rafa has been frustrated for the last couple of seasons looking for a right sided player with several deals falling through. With our obvious need for some quality in that area, I thought the price wasnt too bad at all

[SouthCoastShankly]

I would say we have a good chance of putting a decent challenge for the title. Though realistically we will needs some favours from other teams to help us get there. Chelseas Gold plated Rouble team will be the benchmark but team of superstars doesnt necessarily equate to superstar team ala Real Madrid.


On Pennant issue, I think your being a little harsh about price, while he wouldnt have been my choice. I thought the money paid isnt too bad considering the English factor.
Also remembering that Rafa has been frustrated for the last couple of seasons looking for a right sided player with several deals falling through. With our obvious need for some quality in that area, I thought the price wasnt too bad at all

I disagree, as teams go I don't rate Madrid anymore. Barca and Chelsea are better and have better players.

I too am ok with the Pennant price, considering the infalted price of buying british nowadays, i think we have made a good deal out of Pennant. Especially when you consider what he offers to the team.

As for a title challenge, I will be surprised if we mount a serious title challenge this year. I expect a similar season to last. The problem being that new signings do not gel with the team instantly, time is needed, therefore I think the start of the season will be rocky. Pre-season hasn't helped, what was intended to be a walk in the park, in comparison to other premiership teams pre-seasons, has turned out to be a bit of a nightmare.

Being whipped 5-0 prior to a crucial champions league qualifier is hardly the best preparation.

I hope i'm wrong and we fire on all cylinders from the start but i'm skeptical we will.

[Rafa D]

I being who I am, is the erternal optimist. I would say we would win the title even if we lost our first 10 games, its a flaw I have possessed all my life. However this year I really do think we have a great chance of Stevie lifting that trophy at the end of the year.

  Last year we finished  points behind Chelsea, 9 points is not a lot compared to the 35+ points the year before. It shows just how much we are progressing as a team under Senor Benitez. The stat that shows how much progress we have made is that if we would of beat Chelsea home and away we would of finished above them. I feel with the additions that we have made we a re in a much better position to challenge Chelsea and the rest for our 19th title.

Pennant and Bellamy are good signings in my opinion, there both proven in the Premiership,both British - I don't believe we had enough British players in the squad last year,  and both very very quick.

  The season ahead looks very very promising and hopefully in May we will be reaping the rewards.

Good Luck Lads!

[RUSHIE#9]

I HOPE we'll win the league but the pessamist in me still says we are a couple of players short of realistically pushing for that top spot. I do fully believe though that we've got enough to take 2nd comfortably with about 6pts to chelski. The monstrocity that is chelski have brought in some massive signings this summer but the only one that gives me cause for concern is Shevchenko. We may all be jumping to the conclusion that he will automatically go straight to the top of the goalscoring chart but the premiership is a totally different proposition to serie a.
Our summer transfer activity has been good in IMO, Rafa has addressed the problem areas of the team and has filled them well. Pennant IS a good signing and although the price is about 1.5 million too much we do have a quality RW (at last). Bellamy has got some fire in his belly that i believe we have been missing upfront in the past couple of seasons and utilised along side GOD's experience and crouchie's knock downs and ball holding ability could prove very effective.
This season though we MUST (as has already been said) take points off of MAN U, ARSEHOLENAL & CHEATSKI; to move up from third to second or first we can't rely on other teams to take points off of these three for us. It doesn't take a genius to realise that we'll be in a much healthier position points wise if we take points off of them and they take points off of each other.
Another significant development this summer that we need to make sure we put ourselves in a position to take full advantage of is the few cracks that are starting to develop in chelski's squad. The players are starting to cotton on to the fact that there are too many of them to fit into the 11 on field positions regularly and the more big names that they sign the more chance there is of disharmony within the squad. That is all mere speculation though.

If we aren't going to win the championship this season then i'll happily take second and making chelski spend the last few games of the season really sweating on clinching the title (maybe???)

[flipmode]

I think with the upmost commitment and disipline we can win it or at least be runner up by a few points.....

Judging by a few debuts last night after they have settled more, looks like Bellamy is going to latch on those killer balls, and pennent wanted the ball and caused hassle.

[Scottbot]

Good thread.

To answer the question your question as honestly as i can. I think the title is a possibility but hand on heart, i don't think we will win it this year. I would be delighted just to be involved in the race and fully expect the club to be there or there-abouts this time out.

Obviously we need a good start. Away trips to Chelsea and Goodison in our first few games plus a home rematch with West-Ham could be the making or breaking of our season (as crazy as that sounds).

The arrivals of Bellamy, Gonzalez and Pennant are ideal because they add a bit of pace to what was a fairly pedestrian team last year. Expect to see more goals scored on the counter-attack this season. Having two genuine wingers on each flank for the 1st time in years will add a new dimension to the team particularly when we are chasing the game against teams sitting deep. I think one of the biggest positives from last season is that the team got into the habbit of winning games ugly. For the 1st time since 2001/02 you expected Liverpool to beat the likes of Man.City, Portsmouth and Charlton so obviously more of the same is needed.

I do have a few concerns (or questions) going into the season. Firstly;

Can Rafa make his 4-5-1 work? We had a lot of success playing 4-4-2 last season, was that just a stop-gap untill Rafa got the right personnel? Like St.Mick, i don't believe we have anyone in the squad who can really play as a lone front man. Can Kuyt (when/if he finally arrives) do the job? Only time will tell.

where will Stevie play this year? I like him on right and would like to see him play at least 50% of the games in that position.

How will the left side shape up? Kewell had a decent season last time out but is injured. Gonzalez will need some time to find his feet and i don't think Zenden is the answer. It may be that Riise is asked to spend more time in midfield early in the season. 

As for our rivals;

It's hard to see Chelsea not carrying on where they left off last season but with it being post-World Cup we might see a few surprise results early season involving all of the big four teams. So much depends on the mind-set oposition teams take into a game with Chelsea. They are an incredibly functional team (i don't know how Maureen can criticise Rafa's tactics?) who score a ridiculous amount of goals from set-pieces yet there seems to be a real fear factor among the smaller teams around the league. I'm interested to see how Chelsea set up this year. I'm lost on why Maureen is scrapping his 4-5-1 (although i'm sure he'll still use it) in favour of a 4-4-2. If Makalele plays it means asking Lampard or Ballack to play in one of the wide areas (suits me!)

The Mancs will be stronger this year. Their weakness last year was the middle of the park and Rab.C has strengthened this area. Carrick cost stupid money but he is a player i like and he will only improve, Senna (if he signes) is a player i rate highly and they will have the likes of Scholes and Heinze back this season. They are still a striker short though and i think that selling Horse will cost them dearly. they have also come to rely too much on Rooney (as we do with Gerrard) and a long-term injury to him could derail their season.

Arsenal are a bit of an enigma for me at the moment. Absolutely fantastic to watch and capable of putting 3/4 goals past any team in the world on their day. So many talented young players. Fabregas, Eboue, Toure, Senderos, Van-Persie etc, this team will be awseome in a couple of years. It could be awesome right now but Wenger (who reportadely has plenty of funds) seems so reluctanct to bring in the experience they probably need to go out and win the title this season. Losing Bergkamp, Campbell, Pires and Cole and possibly Reyes would hit any team hard. I still think they may struggle with the physical teams again this season. It all depends on where Wenger spends his money in the next few weeks.

[Cool Hand Luke]

We made astonishing progress last season and maybe we looked a bit better than we really are. We pretty much had a full first team squad to choose from after November, it was an unusual situation to have so little injuries.

The players we have bought will improve us, but this is more to fact that the options we previously had were either low quality or non-existent. Rafa’s manouvourability in the transfer market has been limited because of the size of our squad and wage bill, we are still trying to get rid of players that have no future at Liverpool.

I said when Rafa arrived that it will probably take Rafa 3 seasons to assemble a squad that he will be happy with, and I stand by that. Some of the players we have bought have been more of a case of settling for the best we can do right now rather than thinking which players will help us challenge for the title.

I think this season will be about making a race of the situation and have Chelsea looking over their shoulder at least until 30 games. A season of consolidating our position as an 80+ points league team and a last 16 Champions League team, I still expect Chelsea to win the league but keeping them worried for most of the season will be the key. I feel we are just ahead of Man Utd and Arsenal at the moment, but 1 or 2 quality signing each and they will be on par with us.

I predict that come the end of the next season we will have come second with a points total of over 80 and thus securing an automatic Champions League spot, we would have sold the last of the Cisses, Diaos, Kirklands, etc, our squad will be more balanced and integrated than it has been for over a decade, and Rafa will be plotting the signing that will help us win the league with more wages and money to play with without worrying about having to get rid of dead wood.

I think maybe this season it will be a bit early for us to challenge. The 07/08 season will be the season when we will be challenging for the title.

[coddy]

Good Thread to start.

IMO i think we could win it this year but consistency is the key. We could have won it last season if it wasnt for the poor January that we had. Chelsea's new buys do not concern one bit. The chance is there the team just need to believe and play like they do believe.

[woof woof !]

Although the new players have still to bed in and the "new" team need to gel I believe we have a squad capable of winning the title .For us to win it however does imo depend on three major factors .

1. As Laza alluded to , we need other teams to get stuck in and take points off Chelsea .Many of the premiership clubs whilst fancying their chances against an unpredictable Liverpool have adopted a damage limitation mentality when playing Chelsea , we need every club to give it a right go when playing the current champions , a couple of points shaved here and there could make all the difference.

2. Formation
I honestly don't know what Rafa sees as his "best" formation . Obviously tactics change according to particular circumstances but every team has to have a basic favoured formation . Surely we have to have the confidence to play what suits us, instead of constantly reacting to what the oppositon may do , let them worry about us for a change .
Having said all of that , what is Rafa's favoured formation? . Like many other I don't think 4-5-1 is our best option if we are really seeking to win a game .Since the loss of Owen I don't think we have had a forward who is really capable of playing a lone striker role effectively. Also when we look at some key (?) members of our attacking personnel , Crouch ,Bellamy,Fowler,Garcia, Gerrard, Pennant, Gonzalez, Kewell . Surely that suggests sticking two up front with some of the others providing quality supply ? . 4-4-2 would seem to be the obvious template but again that raises the "who do we leave out in midfield" question.
Perhaps as one or two other posters have mentioned Rafa could explore a 3-5-2 option ?
Whatever Rafa decides on there's no doubt that the formation he chooses and making best use of the players we have available will be absolutely crucial to any success we may have this season . Perhaps more so than ever before ,as he now actually has real options to choose from.

3. Luck .
Every team needs it . A penalty not given , a ball just inches wide , a linesmans flag, the squad stays relatively injury free . All of these things can change a teams season for better or for worse .No matter how well other teams do against our rivals or how expertly Rafa juggles his tactics we'll always need a bit of luck .

If all of the above works out , yes , we can win the title , this season

[stmichael]

The short answer is "yes", providing we steer clear of major injuries and have a bit of luck along the way. As far as I'm concerned, this is the best squad we've had in terms of quality and strength in depth since the late 80's-early 90's. The mere fact that we're discussing at length whether the likes of Alonso are an automatic choice in the first eleven this season is confirmation of that.

[alessandromagno]

It's possible, if everything goes right for us (especially the luck factor already spoken about). I am concerned that we need to get in a prolific striker that is comfortable playing alone up front: could be Kuyt or Klose. If we don't get anyone to play that role then I foresee us dropping too many points by not killing games off to win the PL. I think a new striker is THAT important. Pongolle is good, but it seems he doesn't really have Rafa's confidence--and that will undermine any player's confidence!

[stmichael]

We still need a striker. I think Bellamy has and will do exceptionally well. Whether he flicks the selfdestructive switch a couple of times remains to be seen, but aslong as he continues in his current vein on the pitch, we have a real player on our hands. He'll get a few goals, but his importance will be in creating just as much as finding the back of the net. We're still in the same situation though. We have one natural finisher at the club. An aging, paceless, injury prone Robbie Fowler. Crouch and Bellamy look as though they will continue to be good foils, but for who? Unless we get a Kuyt or a Klose in, then I feel their unselfishness will eventually turn to frustration for the fans.

This one player will be the difference between competing over the course of the season, or eventually becoming an also ran. Arsenal have Henry, Chelsea have Shevchenko, class will usually tell over time.

The rest of the squad seems FINALLY complete, no gaping holes and an abundance of options across the rest of the pitch, particularly in defence and midfield. Great stuff, it's been by and large and excellent summer.

As for Chelsea, people seem to have overlooked the fact that Crespo, Gudjohnsen and Duff have left. Kalou and Sheva need to be bedded in, while the loss of backup option Carlton Cole, means that Mourinho's assertions that he'll adopt a more classic 442 approach this season are a bit flawed.

In essence they have two out and out strikers now in Drogba and Shevchenko, while Cole, Robben and Kalou provide the rest of the attacking threat.. hmmm, for all their quality, take away one of Shevchenko or Drogba for any length of time, and I think we might see them struggle. It's a big 'if' though.

Also, add the fact that three attacking players have gone, and a reshaping of the attack is due, this could spell an indifferent start for Chelsea. That's before we touch on their lack of match fitness..

A decision to only play three friendlies and hardly a sniff of action for the World Cup lads might see them make a start that undone Liverpool's aspirations last season. Longterm though towards the end of the season it might see them fresher than their rivals. It's a gamble of titanic proportions by Mourinho though, we all saw how much it effected us not being able to prepare for the season. It hit us at the key moments of the campaign, the start and the period after Christmas when fitness (or a lack of) often catches up with the least prepared teams..

So all is not cut and dry either way, there's reason enough to believe Chelsea might be hampered by a bit more misfortune this time round, though with the squad they have it's theirs to lose. While its safe to say, Liverpool havent looked this good in a longtime, though it's important we keep our feet on the ground. A potential banana-skin starter at Sheff United, with that horrible cnut Warnock, and THAT away leg qualifier to get out the way, could see our world turned upside down in the space of a week.

It's early days and lets remember that eh? It's essential we stay focused and don't go into the season thinking we have the upperhand.

[JBG]

If we make a good start to the season I think we can win the league, but us winning would involve Chelsea losing about 4 games, at least.

We can do it, albeit its unlikely.