Liverpool FC Forum

[andy_g]

its alarming to see that we have gone from having one of the best defences in the league to now having one which looks decidedly shakey all too often. a defence that has not only conceded goals but on occasions gifted them. the centre pairings of carra and skrtel or agger looks sound enough bearing in mind that agger is as rusty as whats left of the titanic. even the biggest doubters must know he'll get better with a couple more games under his belt. we saw the class he can bring going forward today a few times.

i'm sure there are people with various opinions about why we're conceding more. i know that stu, for example, doubts our ability to deal with aerial balls because we lack a strong header of the ball. i'm not too sure this is the reason myself. its true we lack a dominant aerial player when sami isn't playing but that was also the case when we had such an excellent record in the league a couple of seasons ago.

the problem as far as i can see it is the fullbacks. the old back four of finnan, carra, sami/agger and riise was far better than what we have now. as much as we might have got frustrated at riise last season there is no doubt in my mind that we are missing him now. i've been trying to give dossena the benefit of the doubt for a while but i think i've made my mind up that he is a donkey, and not even a very intelligent one at that. arbeloa is better and i quite like him as a player but i still feel that finnan was much lot better player.

i'm wondering whether this lack of quality at fullback is affecting the performances in the middle of defence. we seem to be getting all out of shape when people attack down our flanks and a lot of teams seem to be picking up on this.

maybe its just a case of too many changes at once. a complete change of fullbacks, the bedding in of skrtel (even though he has been excellent) and the bringing in of pelligrino as defensive coach with his own ideas and routines.

[kopite_1232002]

were pritty sound at the back,
im not going to hold it against agger for the first today but dosenna does worry me alot.
i think he is to fat slow and gives the ball away too much he was awfull today but i will give the lad time

[metalhead]

No, we aren't sound at the back at all, we have conceded really silly goals this season. our fullbacks are a real worry, Arbeloa and Dosenna aren't up to it to be honest, so we need new ones. We need a top center half, we really do, we need someone who can get the first header and knows how to distribute the ball, not hoofing it ala Carragher.

The reason we had the strongest defence a few years ago its because Hyppia was still at his best and our fullbacks weren't bad either, especially Finnan who was consistant as you stated andy

[Fowler_E7]

the fullback situation is a joke, only Aurelio is any good and he's injured half the time, id go as far as saying most of the top half teams have better fullbacks than us.

[metalhead]

the fullback situation is a joke, only Aurelio is any good and he's injured half the time, id go as far as saying most of the top half teams have better fullbacks than us.

sad but true

[Bad Bob]

The first goal conceded today was a complete mare but I back Agger to shake that kind of rustiness (mental as much as physical) off and get back to what he's capable of.  Of much greater concern was the second goal.  Dossena was woeful in dealing with Valencia and Arbeloa was caught ball watching AGAIN.  Our fullbacks are a source of concern, no question in my mind about that.

[Number 9]

It has to be mentioned!
We have had too many "unLiverpool" like errors this season,young as it is not to bring it up.Im happy enough with Skrtel and Carra in the middle which Rafa seems to prefer but I cant understand why Hyypia is not getting more games!Arbeloa,I know some are critical but i feel he's usually steady enough!Rather than the defence performing badly i feel its silly individual mistakes that have been the problem mostly.But i guess its best to get them all out of the way now while we are still winning.Rafa will sort something out I feel,I sincerely hope that Pellegrino is not responsible,maybe he's over complicating things??I hope not,if he is he should be sacked without hesitation.We cannot keep conceding theses silly goals,if we do we will suffer later in the season!
A few silly comments made about Agger today,yeah it was a bad error but the usually impeccable Reina was at fault too,things like that happen from time to time and fortunately we got away with it.Aggers not world class but he's worth a place in the squad on merit.He'll find form and we may be needing him over the season!

As for Dossena,my minds made up now.I was giving him the benefit of the doubt for a while,time to adjust and all that to a new culture,style of play but those excuses dont wash for so many basic frailties.His minimum expectations are at very least to tackle players.Hes looked a fool on a few occassions,players running round him like a schoolboy,hes got away with it as others have covered his back.But today he was'nt so lucky.I cant see any positives about this player sadly and feel its not gonna work out.
I would be more than delighted if he proves me wrong and comes good,the signs are not promising though.Get fit soon Aurelio.

[kunilson]

there seems to be alot of unforced errors and slopiness that are creeping into our games but im not gonna worry about it yet.........simply because our defence is strong and always has been under rafa. it will sort itself out i reckon

[whylongball?]

Dossena looks lost with the ball. Can't pass can't attack
Arbeloa is inconsistent
imo Agger on the left would be much better once Skrtel comes back

[Owzat]

Dossena looks lost with the ball. Can't pass can't attack
Arbeloa is inconsistent
imo Agger on the left would be much better once Skrtel comes back

OMG, don't write anything that could be construed as writing Dossena off already or the numpties will be after you 

Our defence, as mentioned in another thread, has gone from one extreme to the other. FOUR clean sheets in the first five games, but just four goals, has turned to just TWO in the last eight games - thankfully our scoring form has picked up a bit, unfortunately that too is arguably down to having to come from behind due to defensive frailties.

The goals yesterday were down to poor decisions for the first - Reina shouldn't have played it to Agger, Agger shouldn't have tried to beat Zaki although it was an excellent rob by Zaki - and poor defending for the second - Dossena and Agger both challenged the crosser and he still got in the cross, Zaki was not closely marked. The second was a 'wonder goal', but a bit of proper defending at any stage and the ball a) wouldn't have been crossed, and/or b) Zaki wouldn't have had time and space to make the acrobatic shot.

Generally we can be very shoddy defensively, we do need to push forward and try to score more goals, if we cut out silly individual mistakes and improve defensively on set pieces and cutting out supply from the full-back areas, then pushing forward wouldn't cost us as much. It's not as if we don't have numbers back for most of the goals, there just aren't enough proper challenges made when it matters. I feel for Reina, he's not done much wrong yet his clean sheets are drying up rapidly - although why he decided to play the ball to Agger I'll never know, the last man right in front of goal, facing it with a tricky player - Wigan's best - rapidly approaching. Yes Agger should have done better, but he didn't exactly have all day to clear, pass or even decide whether to try and beat Zaki or hoof it. Keepers should play the ball into space, on the flanks preferably to their full-backs, and definitely not to the last man.

Hopefully Agger will settle alongside Carra, I suspect he was chosen ahead of Hyypia because Sami isn't available for our CL match and so time on the pitch was more beneficial for Agger and the team. Sadly our longstanding problems with LB seem to be set to continue, I'd prefer Aurelio but I'm not convinced he can stay injury free long enough to make that place his own. Is Degen anywhere near readiness? We could have played Arbeloa LB and Finnan RB if only we hadn't sold Finnan................

[bigmick]

Right. The defence, starting with Dossena.


Well I said three or four weeks back that I didn't think Dossena had it, and inevitably the thought police aided and abetted by a posse of numpties got in with the "it's too early to judge, give him time FFS ". Well now everyone has seemingly come to a similar conclusion, perhaps it's alright to talk about him now.

Fistly I'm bound to say that if it was too early three weeks ago, it's probably still too early now. This is simply on the grounds that there is the chance, however remote, that he'll find his feet and become a player. There is after all every possibility he's still living in a hotel, doesn't speak the lingo etc etc. I should say also that I think at the very least it's extremely unlikely that he is playing to anywhere near his best at the moment, simply because we work under the assumption that the manager isn't an idiot (infact we know he isn't an idiot) and only an idiot would pay 7 million for this fella based on current form.

So if we assume that he simply MUST be a better player than he's currently showing, why isn't he showing it and what can we expect to see him improve in? From a defensive point of view, I've got a bit of a theory and it's based not so much on him but from the environement he's come from. In Italy, teams tend to try and play in and around you, picking holes in your defence with intricate passing and nice shapes. A full backs job there is much more about making sure people don't get in behind you, tracking players infield etc. In England, teams are much more prepared to sling it into the box from wide areas and take a bit of a gamble than they are in Italy. Players such as Kevin Davis and Emile Heskey wouldn't flourish over there, neither for that matter would your Dean Ashtons and Darren Bents. Because of that, much more of a premium here is based on a fullback actually preventing a cross from coming in, at all. It's something Aurelio looks like he's worked on to me. Once a player is over the half way line and down your flank, he is liable in England to stick it in the box and let his strikers take their chances. This is less so I think in football cultures such as Spain and Italy, where posession of the football is much more king.

So to cut a long story long from a defensive point of view, I think he needs to adapt quickly to what an English Premiership fullback's duties are. I'd quite like to see him curtail some of his attacking tendencies for a while and get the basics of his defending right first. I think he's also got to work on his fitness/awareness so that when he does commit forward, he gets on his bike back with a touch more gusto than we've seen so far. Once again, the game is played at a much higher tempo than he would have been used to at Udinesi or whereever it was he came from. Two or three seconds after he loses posession the football has travelled the best part of sixty yards down the other end of the pitch, even less than that if your playing Hull or Stoke.

I've said before that I don't think he'll work out, but for me that's what he needs to work ON. Become a defender first before you add the frilly bits around the edges. I just get the feeling that ultimately he's not good enough going forward to be a genuine attacking fullback, and not good enough going backwards to be a solidly defensive one either. I maintain my opinion that on the odd occasion he's fit, Fabio Aurelio is much the better player.

[bigmick]

The defence part two. Fabio Aurelio.

I think he's a good little player with a lovely left peg. Unfortunately we have probably never seen him perform beyond 70% of his potential simply because he's never fit for five games on the spin. I like his passing range, he tucks in and out at the right time, you don't see him get skinned over often and he has a good shot on him. Given the fact he's supposed to be a free-kick specialist (although he is a specialist at it in a similar sense to what I was, he doesn't actually ever score one) I wouldn't think it would be beyond him to be a good corner taker either. He has a good snap into the tackle, and for a little fella can hold his own against 90% of wingers in the sir.

Unfortunately though, he isn't fit often enough or for long enough. Since he came he has absolutely been made of glass, and because of that he isn't the answer. It pains me to say that because I like him as a footballer, but like Dossena, I don't think he's going to be the one.


Alternatives? Well the obvious one if you could get him would be Wayne Bridge. Matty Taylor once of Pompey and now at Bolton used to be a left back of some repute and would do a good job there, while the Croatian bloke who Tottenham signed is a good player by all accounts. Obviously overseas there will be a million left fullbacks, but my feeling is that we haven't currently got one who is good enough in one case, and strong enough in the other.

[kopite_1232002]

i think we should let Dossena off for his game yesterday..

He obviously had the credit crunch on his mind

[LFC2007]

Dossena looks like a fat bloke who can't fecked, I'm really fecked off with his atttude against Wigan. Get Aurelio in ASAP.

Agger will need games because he looked seriously rusty on Saturday and not a patch on Skrtel's recent form.

Arbeloa, a decent defender who's been ok thus far, but long-term we need better.

Carragher's our eternal rock and without him we'd be fecked.

[Bam]

TBF I think both our LB's look suspect at the moment, I had hoped Dossena would of gained some confidence by now. But as it stands he still looks off the pace, I like him going forward I think he's more of a threat than Aurelio and shows urgency in getting down that left flank and making something happen. There isnt alot to choose between both of them defensively IMO, they both look suspect in certain circumstances. Aurelio for example, was skinned a few times by SWP at Citeh, gave the ball away cheaply and never seems to commit 100% to a challenge. While Dossena looks cumbersum at times, and looks liable to slip up at any given moment.

In saying that though I'm not to worried about our defence at the moment. Its individual errors thats costing us goals, I'm sure Rafa will see this and work on it. Its not as if we're getting carved open at every opportunity.