Liverpool FC Forum

[Rush Job]

i think we should let Dossena off for his game yesterday..

He obviously had the credit crunch on his mind

Mate have you not already said that a couple of pages back?



Two good posts there mick, i agree at the moment Aurelio is the best left back we have but the fact he only plays 20-25 games in all competitions a season is leaving us lacking in that dept.

[Ace Ventura]

I would play Hyypia with Carra and play Agger left back personally.
Am in work so cant really post much, just think our full backs are that poor that Agger could do a good job.
We seen saturday that he has composure in the final third, we know he is a threat as well as he has a decent shot on him.
Also its another taller player to have in the team when defending set pieces.
Seems obvious to me.

[Leonmc0708]

............and inevitably the thought police .................

How do they work ?

[Leonmc0708]

Just checked the stats and we conceded 6 to date, 2 more than Yernited and Chelsea and the same as Arsenal.

Have to say I am a little worried at how long we can continue to play average and continue to win, some say its the mark of potential league winners, but I would rather be good than lucky - contrary to popular concensus.

[GOAT_2.0]

I'm just hoping we haven't hit top gear yet and we will do soon so we won't need luck so much because it will run out eventually

[andy_g]

i'll be the first to admit i don't understand the finer points of tactics half as well as other good posters on this forum. i'd be interested to hear form some of those people if they really do think that the problem (if it is a problem) lies entirely with the fullbacks or whether its a defensive change as a whole. this is why i thought it might be worth having another thread besides the fullback situation one.

its not that we are suddenly a defensive disaster but having let in 2 in consecutive games is something that would never have happened a couple of seasons back. i'd often go and see the match comfortable in the fact that we would at the very least keep a clean sheet and would be genuinely surprised if someone scored against us, especially at anfield. now, however, i get a little nervous whenever a team comes at us.

maybe its related to the fact that we are not performing well as a whole as a team. in fact, in our best 3 performances - the second halves against man u, everton and man city, we looked rock solid again at the back (as far as i can remember). maybe this general sloppiness and lack of concentration that marks our dodgy performances is what leaves us so exposed at the back at times.

or maybe it really is as simple as the fact that dossena is not even showing he's worth a tenth of what we paid for him.

[bigmick]

Leons point is an interesting one, not the one about the thought police but the one about us continuing to win whilst not actually playing well. I'm in agreement with him on this one, although it's undoubtedly nice to keep pulling victory from the jaws of defeat, you won't win a title that way. It's a long hard season, and whilst I obviously don't advocate "styling" to give the players a rest, there's no question in my mind it takes less of a toll on players if you stroll to a 3-0 than it does when you come from behind with late goals.

Our main rivals for a title shot (Chelsea and Man Utd) won 5-0 and 4-0 respectively over the weekend, and while it's far too early to be concerned about goal difference, there will be an accumulative fatigue if wem can't start to win with a bit more authority.

As far as Andy's point about the defence, I don't think it's purely dwon to Dossena no. Football is very rarely like that, although I do think as I've said that he has been something of a disappointment so far. Probably the most significant reason that we look a bit more fragile than previously is the most obvious one in that we no longer play with two holding midfielders. While we have all applauded Alonso's renaissance, when you think back to last season you had both him and Masherano as sitters, and it is no surprise that we look a bit more porous without them there. My hunch is also that Reina isn't quite at the very top of his game, ditto Carragher and Arbeloa and the whole thing looks a bit disjointed.

A couple of people have mentioned the possibility of Agger playing at left back, with Hyppia centrally. To be perfectly honest I gave it some thought a couple of weeks back and said I liked the idea, and having seen agger on Saturday I am more convinced it has somethign going for it. The Dane is clearly a better prospect at left back currently than Dossena, and we could probably do with Hyppia's aerial dominance as well.

Not just down to Dossena though, as always it's a culmination of lots of stuff in my opinion anyway.

[Sabre]

On paper playing two wingers like Riera and Pennant and 2 strikers will make you more vulnerable. And in reality in the last game it meant a difficult game for both Alonso and Gerrard, who did quite well both of them to deal with most of the job in a busy day.

But none of the goals we received were due to this decission. Until 3 weeks ago we were very solid, with only 2 goals conceded. It seems a problem of the latter games, and it's still too early to tell if it's a glitch in our defence or a serious problem.

While I agree in the long term we need better than Arbeloa or Dossena, I think it would be unfair to single them out for our current defensive problems. Yesterday Riera in the first half for instance, put into trouble our defence a couple of times, making passes in a zone he shouldn't have. Pennant in min 15 also lost a dangerous ball that led to a glorious chance of Wigan and a monumental angry moment of Carra.

Carra himself made a tackle in a situation he should have hold the striker, lost position, and the situation ended up in a corner. Alonso failed in a couple of occasions to tackle  De Ridder or something, who was able to control and turn.

In a nutshell: I think it's a glitch in our defensive solidness and we can't single out names, as I've seen many members of the squad making mistakes. Not as obvious as the Agger one, but I'd share the guilt in all the team bar the strikers.

I'm not too worried on this front.

P.S. Good topic Andy, I wanted to discuss this too.

[112-1077774096]

is the problem the defence or is it that they are getting through our midfield easier. it then becomes a numbers game for the defence, they are exposed more than normal and law of averages etc.

i haven't seen the stats, just spit balling

[andy_g]

mick, your point about us not having the 2 man shield is a good one but is also slightly worrying. if we have a defence that can only defend effectively when there are, in effect, 6 of them as opposed to 4 (or even 2 like yesterday ) then we have problems that need addressing. it would be easy for rafa to stick in the 2 man shield again, if he thinks its necessary, but then we lose a lot of the drive going forward that we've begun to enjoy this season. but then i guess that this problem of finding the right balance in the team between defence and attack is what really sorts out the wheat from the chaff as far as managers go.

so far it looks like we can out score opponents even when we concede but only as long as they have a player sent off or concede an own goal. its keeping us where we are for now but that kind of luck isn't going to keep up all season. i don't see rafa going to keegan route so he's going to look for ways to shore up the defence. aside from some intensive training sessions i don't see him looking at many other alternatives than the 2 man screen again and that would be a shame when we are beginning to play some attractive offensive football again.

[Bam]

Well I'm going to go with the notion, that for now our goals conceeded have come by silly individual errors in the main. So I'm not going to worry to much about this TBH, every year we conceed a few more goals somewhere along the line during a season. In the past they've been nipped in the bud, like somebody else mentioned we only conceeded two goals prior to the Man.C game in the league. So I'm pretty confident there isnt too much to worry about, like I said its not as if teams are ripping us apart at every given opportunity. That would have me concerned but not this, not yet.

[RedBlood]

We do seem 2 struggle more when either Alonso or Mascherano is out the team theyre both excellent tacklers (alonso doesnt get the credit he deserves 4 this) Made up Agger contributed so well 2 the equaliser that mistake coulda knocked his confidence big time if it was costly

He showe us what weve been missin 4 nearly a year yesterday i thought he was excellent going foward he finds it so easy gettin passed people i was telling my brother during the match that maybe in a couple of years he could replace alonso in mid & partner mascherano

[Bad Bob]

mick, your point about us not having the 2 man shield is a good one but is also slightly worrying. if we have a defence that can only defend effectively when there are, in effect, 6 of them as opposed to 4 (or even 2 like yesterday ) then we have problems that need addressing. it would be easy for rafa to stick in the 2 man shield again, if he thinks its necessary, but then we lose a lot of the drive going forward that we've begun to enjoy this season. but then i guess that this problem of finding the right balance in the team between defence and attack is what really sorts out the wheat from the chaff as far as managers go.

so far it looks like we can out score opponents even when we concede but only as long as they have a player sent off or concede an own goal. its keeping us where we are for now but that kind of luck isn't going to keep up all season. i don't see rafa going to keegan route so he's going to look for ways to shore up the defence. aside from some intensive training sessions i don't see him looking at many other alternatives than the 2 man screen again and that would be a shame when we are beginning to play some attractive offensive football again.

I think the 2 man screen is only part of the issue, if at all, mate.  After all, of the games that have concerned us of late defensively, we had 2 man sitting in front of our back four in one of them (Man City) and we still conceded twice.

For me, all four goals against Man City and Wigan (our big defensive 'problem' games) were down to stupid mistakes rather than part of any discernable larger pattern.  Indeed, looking back on the types of goals we've conceded this season, I struggle to find any one thing or individual that's the obvious problem:

1) Mido shot from distance (Alonso guilty of giving the ball away in midfield)
2) Tevez scoring after a run and cut-back from Berbatov (Mascherano guilty of not tracking the run; Skrtel may have done better in cutting out the cut-back)
3) Cana springs the offside trap and scores for Marseille (Carra guilty of playing him onside and Masch slightly culpable in not closing down Cheyrou)
4) O'Connor sticks a rebound home for Crewe off a corner (Agger beaten in the air and Diego can only parry the header to the feet of the Crewe man)
5) Koevermans finds the seam and scores from a cross (Aurelio could have done better to prevent the cross and Skrtel caught ball-watching, allowing the PSV man to get goalside)
6) Ireland's volley for Man City (Aurelio gave the ball away to SWP who managed to cut the ball back to Robinho and Arbeloa failed to hack clear)
7) Garrido's free kick (Riera puts in a poor challenge near our box to give them the free kick)
8) Zaki's first (a mare from Agger with Reina not helping matters)
9) Zaki's second (Dossena and Agger fail to put the ball in Row Z and allow Valencia to cross; Arbeloa fails to cut out the cross)

There seem to be a lot of "one off" gaffs there that hopefully won't repeat themselves.  I think once Agger finds his feet again, we'll look that much more solid.  I still have concerns over our fullbacks but I don't think our defending is too dire at this point.

[Bad Bob]

Well I'm going to go with the notion, that for now our goals conceeded have come by silly individual errors in the main. So I'm not going to worry to much about this TBH, every year we conceed a few more goals somewhere along the line during a season. In the past they've been nipped in the bud, like somebody else mentioned we only conceeded two goals prior to the Man.C game in the league. So I'm pretty confident there isnt too much to worry about, like I said its not as if teams are ripping us apart at every given opportunity. That would have me concerned but not this, not yet.

Agreed.  Was typing when you posted but that's my point as well.  Silly mistakes in the main that I back Rafa to stamp out on the training ground.

[Judge]

i am made up that we are winning when not playing so well, however, we have chelsea up soon, and whilst i am confident of a decent result against them, i am wary of HULL CITY