Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I got to thinking while we were discussing the "same number of points as last season" stat (which now appears to have been disproven) about progress over Rafa's period as manager.

Now I don't think there's too much doubt that we currently have a better team than the one which he miraculously guided to Champions League success. That debate though has been done to death, so without getting into it now, lets just assume for the sake of argument that it is so.

The point of the question and indeed the post is this, assuming we have progressed, how much is it by and is quickly enough to realistically expect us to at some stage win the title? Also, given the financial investment we have made, is the progression a fair return or not?

My reading without resorting to Google and stats, just going from memory is that the best team we had under Rafa was last seasons one when Torres was fit. I think Riera has improved the team this season, but the absence of Torres has more than compensated I think (although the emergence of Gerrard as potentially the best player in the World has made it a very close call). That team in my opinion would have gone much closer than 11 points off the top if a couple of things had been done differently (and no prizes for guessing what I think those were  ) but whatever, that was the best one for me.

The season before we had a very good team too, the one with Crouch up top which won the FA Cup. As I remember we won the FA Cup that season, beating a good Manc side en route, and finished strongly in the league to get within 9 points or so. The league was already won (by the Mancs I think), so there was an element of running on through beaten horses, but equally pro-rotationalists could argue that it was "delayed gazelle" in action. I think that team was plenty good enough to mount a title challenge as well given a methodology rethink, although not as good as the team the following season with Torres up front.

So we can assume from all that, that according to my warped logic, if Torres had been fit this season, this team would be the best one that Rafa has put together. That's cool, because that's exactly what I think. Also we've slightly tweaked the philosophy and lo and behold, we're top of the league. What if though (and here's the rub) it still isn't enough? What if Torres comes back, starts banging the goals in and we still finish adrift of the Mancs?

I know there's a lot of what ifs there, but to me this is the nub.......

Is it enough to gradually improve season on season? Is it enough to add a player here and a player there, to wait on Gerrard getting better and better? Is it the case (and I personally think it probably is) that you'd need in a transfer window to buy a 20 million pound striker who actually improves the team (or indeed one who sometimes plays in it) and a fullback for 7 million quid who is at least quite good?

The thing is the Mancs will keep buying and will keep winning league titles. Can we catch them step by step, or do we need to do things differently?

[peterc1992]

Time wll tell bigmick....do we have them this year..our slow gradual comeback to the top is on and we are closer than ever..for the next 5 years the mancs will always be there with a shout as fergie has been around so long that the foundations he has at the club are unbelievable...

The rafalution has only started and this year cold be a key one in his career

IN RAFA WE TRUST..well i do

[GYBS]

Think we can only keep going the way we are mick - the thing with the mancs is they can splash out on pretty much anyone they want - lastest guy who might be joining them is benzema for 40 mil or so - we cant compete with that sort of money when it comes to buying just the one player - we have to spread our budget over a couple of players . Yeah i think if torres had been fit we would be more points ahead but loosing him is a massive blow and a hard hole to fill . It would be like the mancs loosing ronaldo for half a season etc . this is the best squad rafa has ad - admittedly there are a few areas that could be improved but its looking good and the progress is good . without being able to splash out big on just the one superstar it is hard for us to make giant leaps and we just got to keep improving and i think we are - It is bloody hard to win the league over the mancs and chelsea .

[bigmick]

They spend big, so do we. They spend bigger, so therefore by definition we have to spend better. Sometimes we have, and sometimes we haven't. The last transfer window for instance (in the Summer) was a disaster based on what we've seen so far IMHO.

We bought a striker for 20 million quid who we appear not to need, not to rate and not to like. We bought a full back for 7 million quid who is beyond sensible discussion, a keeper who I'm far from convinced about if I'm honest, a young kid striker who admittedly could be anything but is probably nothing, and a left sided midfielder for 7-9 million who is probably fair value. We spent 40 million quid, and essentially got Riera, a decent left sided midfielder who can last an hour per game as far as first team players go (and that's in the managers eyes, not necessarily mine).

I watched the Man Utd game re-run last night, and they had that young kid Johnny Evans (I think) at centre half looking after Drogba/Annelka. Now neither Chelsea forward did a tap all game admittedly (this Chelsea team is just as good as previous ones though ) but nontheless, he clearly is an exceptional prospect. They do produce them from time to time, as well as buying youngsters who do occasionally break into the side and look accomplished (like the Brazillian full back bloke).

Insua is the first of hopefully a production line for us, but I don't to be honest hold out much hope for us producing these home-grown British youngsters anytime soon. I know Emerald posted up last week that Spearing was like (or reminded him of) a young Paul Scholes, to which I'd say lets get him in the team then and fecking sharpish. I think though having seen him play extremely briefly, that though he physically may resemble the Manc midfielder, the similarity perhaps stops there to be charitable.

Hopefully our step by step approach does work, and we win the title this season. If we do, the surge of confidence it'll give everyone will lift us tyo a new level. My concern though is that this is the best opportunity we are going to have for a very long time. Perhaps we've already had the opportunity and blown it, only time will tell. One thing I am absolutely convinced about, we are going to need to be a much better team to win it next season that we will have to be this.

[account deleted by request]

I think progress has been slow with perhaps one real backward step..... the summer signings after the FA Cup win back in 2006. Gerrard and Carra are probably at their peak now and there is only one way from there. Our progress was too slow for Sammi, I don't want to be still struggling for a title challenge AND having to replace Gerrard and Carra in a few seasons.

I don't believe we can continue to outspend the mancs year on year, so I think we need to try something a little different. I would reduce the size of the squad but improve the team. Yes we may have problems competing in all 4 competitions with a smaller squad, but we havent won much the last couple of years with a huge one .... have we? Get a nucleus of 14 or 15 top quality players instead of a squad of 25 + and maybe we can still outspend the mancs......where it counts on the first team.
Citeh seem certain to be added to the mix next season, Villa could well be pushing as well if they can hang onto their stars, things can only get harder imo. This could be the best chance we have for years.

It just seems to me we are playing into the mancs hands the way we are buying at the moment. We buy a £20million player....... they can buy a £30million one. While we spend millions more on swopping one average player just to be replaced by another player of similar average abilities. Riise and Dossena for example (sorry Riise), rather than paying for the top quality we need. There is an old saying ....buy cheap and pay twice.

If we don't push out all the stops now, it may be too late in a couple of years.


Maybe we will have to cut back on how much we are investing in youth in the short term as well. Once we have the first team in place...... then invest heavily in youth.


Think of the team we could have now if we had just had the money to close the deals.


                  Reina

Alves       Carra      Vidic        Aurelio


Simao       Gerrard    Masch     Barry
               
                  Torres   Villa

With Aguero on the bench 

[Lando_Griffin]

I got to thinking while we were discussing the "same number of points as last season" stat (which now appears to have been disproven) about progress over Rafa's period as manager.

Now I don't think there's too much doubt that we currently have a better team than the one which he miraculously guided to Champions League success. That debate though has been done to death, so without getting into it now, lets just assume for the sake of argument that it is so.

The point of the question and indeed the post is this, assuming we have progressed, how much is it by and is quickly enough to realistically expect us to at some stage win the title? Also, given the financial investment we have made, is the progression a fair return or not?

My reading without resorting to Google and stats, just going from memory is that the best team we had under Rafa was last seasons one when Torres was fit. I think Riera has improved the team this season, but the absence of Torres has more than compensated I think (although the emergence of Gerrard as potentially the best player in the World has made it a very close call). That team in my opinion would have gone much closer than 11 points off the top if a couple of things had been done differently (and no prizes for guessing what I think those were  ) but whatever, that was the best one for me.

The season before we had a very good team too, the one with Crouch up top which won the FA Cup. As I remember we won the FA Cup that season, beating a good Manc side en route, and finished strongly in the league to get within 9 points or so. The league was already won (by the Mancs I think), so there was an element of running on through beaten horses, but equally pro-rotationalists could argue that it was "delayed gazelle" in action. I think that team was plenty good enough to mount a title challenge as well given a methodology rethink, although not as good as the team the following season with Torres up front.

So we can assume from all that, that according to my warped logic, if Torres had been fit this season, this team would be the best one that Rafa has put together. That's cool, because that's exactly what I think. Also we've slightly tweaked the philosophy and lo and behold, we're top of the league. What if though (and here's the rub) it still isn't enough? What if Torres comes back, starts banging the goals in and we still finish adrift of the Mancs?

I know there's a lot of what ifs there, but to me this is the nub.......

Is it enough to gradually improve season on season? Is it enough to add a player here and a player there, to wait on Gerrard getting better and better? Is it the case (and I personally think it probably is) that you'd need in a transfer window to buy a 20 million pound striker who actually improves the team (or indeed one who sometimes plays in it) and a fullback for 7 million quid who is at least quite good?

The thing is the Mancs will keep buying and will keep winning league titles. Can we catch them step by step, or do we need to do things differently?

Just to address your misconception:

Liverpool Premiership games 2008-09:

21.

Robbie Keane's Premiership appearances:

17. (2 of which were as a sub.) 1195 minutes.

There are only 6 players who have had more playing time than Keane this season:

Pepe Reina: 1915.

Arbeloa: 1532.

Carra: 1915.

Stevie: 1611.

Xabi: 1571.

Kuyt: 1846.

With this in mind, your opinion of "or indeed one who sometimes plays in it" is wide of the mark.

[Bad Bob]

They spend big, so do we. They spend bigger, so therefore by definition we have to spend better.

This is the part that's starting to concern me, TBPH.  I'm very pleased we're where we are this season and, like you, I still think this season will still be a very important step forward for us even if we don't quite make it to the end of the season on top (assuming we don't fall away badly etc.).  Looking forward, though, I can't help but wonder about Rafa's recent decision making in the transfer market and what that might mean for the possibility of outflanking the Mancs, Chelsea and other well-financed competitors.  As you've said, Mick, one of the benefits of being top of the table is not having our recent transfers very carefully scrutinized.  But, there's plenty there to raise an eyebrow.  Dossena is clearly a major waste of good money--doubly so when you consider that we sold, in Riise, a player who (if nothing else) could be relied on to stay fit and compete for the shirt.  In effect, we've brought in a leftback who's not up to the required standard, while relying on a lad who has a trouble staying fit.  Thankfully the maturation of Insua has softened that blow a little.

The Keane transfer has been debated many times over from many different angles so I won't rehash here.  I do find it curious, however, that--regardless of whether you rate him or not--he's been bought by a team that predominantly plays a system he doesn't suit.  We achieved our best run of results in the run-in last season largely (though not exclusively) playing a 4-4-1-1 with Gerrard in the free role behind Torres.  Rafa's brief early-season flirtation with 4-4-2 aside, I think we were always odds on to play this way this season.  Clearly, when we do play this way, Rafa doesn't exactly rate/trust/relish Keane in the role of either the lone striker or the lad in the hole just behind.  So why then did we use up a significant chunk of the transfer kitty on Keane?  A puzzling decision in hindsight that grows harder to fathom the more time Keane sits on his duff in the stands each week.

Degen's been discussed a little of late and, on paper, perhaps he's not a bad shout.  A free transfer for a young lad who likes to get forward and who was always going to be understudy to Arbeloa. Still, he seems to have had a bit of a rep as a sicknote and nothing we've seen so far has changed that (quite the opposite...).  And, again, this is compounded by the fact that we moved Finnan on, meaning that we've played the majority of the season hoping that our one reliable, specialist RB doesn't get hurt.  And of course he has.  Some will say we haven't suffered with Carra filling in but I wonder if we've sacrificed some of our attacking impetus down the right flank with him moved over...particularly against Stoke and their park the bus approach.  Such are the matches when a fullback with attacking skill are needed.

The signing of Cavalieri is not that big a concern for me, TBPH, because Itandje proved himself very replaceable last season.  Some will wish we went for a vet prem keeper but who knows what kind of fee/wages that would take.  Anyway, weren't we turned down by someone who didn't fancy being Reina's understudy.

So, the only standout transfer is Riera.  On the other side of the equation, you had Rafa looking to sell Alonso which, with each passing game, looks more and more of a mistake.  At best, bringing Barry in in place of Alonso was a sideways step and at worse, a step down in quality.  Not exactly the kind of transfer business title challengers should be engaging in, IMO.  Now we've got reports of Agger nearing the exit.  Granted, you can't let a player hold the club to ransom--particularly if his form has dropped, which it has.  Alternatively, it seems like a very, very bad idea to sell a central defender with good and, for our squad, unique qualities in the midst of a title challenge, whatever the economics say about the matter.  We might get more money for him now but that will be cold comfort if we lose two CBs at a crucial moment in the season and need to draft Arbeloa or this Kelly kid into central defense.

This is turned into a bit of a book so I'll just wind up by saying that, in a nutshell, I have some growing concerns about Rafa's ability to "buy better" in the transfer market.  If we're to progress and become perennial challengers for the title, we need to be more or less spot on in the transfer market, particularly when we lack the broad pool of existing talent in the squad that the Mancs and Chelsea can boast.  Of late, Rafa has been far too hit and miss with his transfers and that could cost us dearly.

[bigmick]

*****SORRY, SHOULD HAVE QUOTED LANDO HERE*******



Not really Lando, I can't have been clear. My point is that as I said in another post, we have paid 20 million quid for a striker we seemingly don't need (as he wouldn't get in our best eleven) not rate (as despite the fact he's scored three times in his last three league games, we prefer Kuyt up front instead of him) and not like (as we just don't appear to ).

Now I never bought the bloke, Rafa did. I don't pick the team, Rafa does. I'm simply summising it how I see it from rafa's eyes. FWIW, I actually agree with the manager that Keane wouldn't get in our best eleven, as Gerrard is better at playing off Torres than Keane is. I think it's reasonable though to ask, if that is the case why did we spend 20 million quid on the Irishman six months ago? It obviously isn't just in case Torres isn't available, because we've decided we aren't going to play him then either. Like I say though, I didn't buy him so i can only guess. My guess is that his signing was an awful piece of transfer business. That said, once you've signed him and he eventually starts scoring goals you might as well play him I reckon. If he scores twice in one game you might as well leave him in for the next one to see if he can do it again. The truth is though that it appears his signing was ill thought out. Surpassed in its awfulness only by the signing of Dossena.

[bigmick]

They spend big, so do we. They spend bigger, so therefore by definition we have to spend better.

This is the part that's starting to concern me, TBPH.  I'm very pleased we're where we are this season and, like you, I still think this season will still be a very important step forward for us even if we don't quite make it to the end of the season on top (assuming we don't fall away badly etc.).  Looking forward, though, I can't help but wonder about Rafa's recent decision making in the transfer market and what that might mean for the possibility of outflanking the Mancs, Chelsea and other well-financed competitors.  As you've said, Mick, one of the benefits of being top of the table is not having our recent transfers very carefully scrutinized.  But, there's plenty there to raise an eyebrow.  Dossena is clearly a major waste of good money--doubly so when you consider that we sold, in Riise, a player who (if nothing else) could be relied on to stay fit and compete for the shirt.  In effect, we've brought in a leftback who's not up to the required standard, while relying on a lad who has a trouble staying fit.  Thankfully the maturation of Insua has softened that blow a little.

The Keane transfer has been debated many times over from many different angles so I won't rehash here.  I do find it curious, however, that--regardless of whether you rate him or not--he's been bought by a team that predominantly plays a system he doesn't suit.  We achieved our best run of results in the run-in last season largely (though not exclusively) playing a 4-4-1-1 with Gerrard in the free role behind Torres.  Rafa's brief early-season flirtation with 4-4-2 aside, I think we were always odds on to play this way this season.  Clearly, when we do play this way, Rafa doesn't exactly rate/trust/relish Keane in the role of either the lone striker or the lad in the hole just behind.  So why then did we use up a significant chunk of the transfer kitty on Keane?  A puzzling decision in hindsight that grows harder to fathom the more time Keane sits on his duff in the stands each week.

Degen's been discussed a little of late and, on paper, perhaps he's not a bad shout.  A free transfer for a young lad who likes to get forward and who was always going to be understudy to Arbeloa. Still, he seems to have had a bit of a rep as a sicknote and nothing we've seen so far has changed that (quite the opposite...).  And, again, this is compounded by the fact that we moved Finnan on, meaning that we've played the majority of the season hoping that our one reliable, specialist RB doesn't get hurt.  And of course he has.  Some will say we haven't suffered with Carra filling in but I wonder if we've sacrificed some of our attacking impetus down the right flank with him moved over...particularly against Stoke and their park the bus approach.  Such are the matches when a fullback with attacking skill are needed.

The signing of Cavalieri is not that big a concern for me, TBPH, because Itandje proved himself very replaceable last season.  Some will wish we went for a vet prem keeper but who knows what kind of fee/wages that would take.  Anyway, weren't we turned down by someone who didn't fancy being Reina's understudy.

So, the only standout transfer is Riera.  On the other side of the equation, you had Rafa looking to sell Alonso which, with each passing game, looks more and more of a mistake.  At best, bringing Barry in in place of Alonso was a sideways step and at worse, a step down in quality.  Not exactly the kind of transfer business title challengers should be engaging in, IMO.  Now we've got reports of Agger nearing the exit.  Granted, you can't let a player hold the club to ransom--particularly if his form has dropped, which it has.  Alternatively, it seems like a very, very bad idea to sell a central defender with good and, for our squad, unique qualities in the midst of a title challenge, whatever the economics say about the matter.  We might get more money for him now but that will be cold comfort if we lose two CBs at a crucial moment in the season and need to draft Arbeloa or this Kelly kid into central defense.

This is turned into a bit of a book so I'll just wind up by saying that, in a nutshell, I have some growing concerns about Rafa's ability to "buy better" in the transfer market.  If we're to progress and become perennial challengers for the title, we need to be more or less spot on in the transfer market, particularly when we lack the broad pool of existing talent in the squad that the Mancs and Chelsea can boast.  Of late, Rafa has been far too hit and miss with his transfers and that could cost us dearly.

Good post that Bob. It's still worth considering though that despite a dodgy summer in the transfer market, there's no getting away from the fact (at least I don't think there is) that we would have improved as a team this season by a fair bit if Torres had stayed fit. In fact arguably, we have anyway.

Chief amongst the reasons for the improvement IMHO are the emergence of Gerrard as a true World beating talent, Kuyts early form on the right (particularly his goals which unfortunately have dried up a bit), the aquisition of Riera and the significant reduction in rotation at the start of the season.

That 27 mill we spunked on keane and Dossena though could really have made a difference. Perhaps if Torres had been fit it wouldn't have mattered we'd be clear by now anyway, or perhaps now he's back we'll win it anyhow, who knows?

[andy_g]

my simplest possible answer to the question of 'have we progressed?' is this;

where before we were in a position of hoping we'd do ok, i.e. at least 4th, in the league and get to the latter stages of a couple of cups we are now in a position where we expect it and we know we can do well or even win them.

whether we actually realise these expectations or not is another matter.

now i have to go and make a salad

[Bad Bob]

Good post that Bob. It's still worth considering though that despite a dodgy summer in the transfer market, there's no getting away from the fact (at least I don't think there is) that we would have improved as a team this season by a fair bit if Torres had stayed fit. In fact arguably, we have anyway.

Chief amongst the reasons for the improvement IMHO are the emergence of Gerrard as a true World beating talent, Kuyts early form on the right (particularly his goals which unfortunately have dried up a bit), the aquisition of Riera and the significant reduction in rotation at the start of the season.

That 27 mill we spunked on keane and Dossena though could really have made a difference. Perhaps if Torres had been fit it wouldn't have mattered we'd be clear by now anyway, or perhaps now he's back we'll win it anyhow, who knows?

I agree, mate.  Even had we signed no one, I think the existing lads would have gelled even more if all the key ones had stayed fit and might have found another level than we saw last year.  But there's always going to be limits to this kind of improvement.  First of all, key players will not all stay fit--as we've seen with Torres this season.  Second, some will lose form for whatever reason--as Alonso has shown in the past and Masch and Agger are showing now.  But, over and above that there's the fact that we have identified weak points in our team that can only be solved by going out and buying a better player.  As much as I appreciate the work of Kuyt, Arbeloa and Aurelio, for example, I think we need a higher standard of player at RM, RB and LB.  Another quality LM and at least two good strikers that suit our system are needed as well if we really want to be there or there abouts for the foreseeable.  As Saint's said, though, it often feels like chronic problem areas go unaddressed during the transfer window or the lads we do bring in aren't quite up to it.  I appreciate that Rafa can't just go out and get another Torres every window but we need to see a lot more Rieras and a lot fewer Dossenas, if you get my meaning.

[GYBS]

the point i was making about the spending big mick is how saint has said , we spend 20 mil on keane plus 12 mil on reira and dossena where as the mancs pretty much spend that on one player . I dont think anyone expecting dossena to be so poor but we did need a replacement for riise as he had gone stale for us for a good 18 months  but the 20 mil on keane was my big worry at the start of the season because i wanted someone a bit more creative . For that money we could of got arshavin or for an extra couple we could of got both podolski and silva which would of given us a creative wide player plus another young very good striker .

[Owzat]

I got to thinking while we were discussing the "same number of points as last season" stat (which now appears to have been disproven) about progress over Rafa's period as manager.

What stat was this and where/how was it "disproven"?

We've reach the most points after 21 games under Rafa, in fact in the Premiership. It is only two points better than 2005/6 when we reached our best ever points tally in the Premiership.

However if you compare the corresponding fixtures we're not that much better off. Trouble is three sides we played last season were relegated, if you take Stoke to be brum in terms of our bogey team as we drew home and away against them both, then here's a comparison.

Corresponding Fixtures/Results - 08/09 vs 07/08

Sunderland (a) W vs W
Boro (h) W vs W
A Villa (a) D vs W
Man Utd (h) W vs L
Stoke/Brum (h) D vs D
Bitters (a) W vs W
Citeh (h) W vs D

Seven games in and it's 08/09 leading 17-14

Wigan (h) W vs D
Chelsea (a) W vs D
Portsmouth (h) W vs W
Tottenham (a) L vs W
West Brom/Derby (h) W vs W
Bolton (a) W vs W
Fulham (h) D vs W

Fourteen games in and it's tightened up to 33-31

West Ham (h) D vs W
Blackburn (a) W vs D
Hull/Reading (h) D vs W
Arsenal (a) D vs D
Bolton (h) W vs W
Newcastle (a) W vs W
Stoke/Brum (a) D vs D

Twenty-One games and it's 46-46 on corresponding fixtures -

- at least best fit in terms of the three sides who replaced last season's. I think WBA is fair comparison with Derby, not that it matters too much overall as we dropped too many points last season against Brum and Reading (away) and have beating only WBA so far of the promoted sides.


Personally I'd say his progress has stagnated, on all fronts. He signed wonder kid Torres and that boosted us, but even with him and his goals our best points tally came before he did. We haven't won a (proper) cup since the FA Cup in 2006, it's hard to improve on winning the Champions League and we've got stuck in and around the last four. But in the league, apart from being top, we're playing poorly and may not be "top of the league" much longer.

What we need to do to show "progress" is show we can maintain form for longer than 10-20 games into the season, that we can beat the sides we expect to and mount a proper challenge. The league is the "holy grail", no good showing patches of form or being top for maybe half of it before fading as that's nothing we've not shown before - early last season and in 05/06 (10 wins in a row)

[Sabre]

I've read with attention the post of Bad Bob up there. It's long, and besides being long, it's difficult I disagree any thing. I could make a comment about Agger's drop of form, but as a whole, the criticism he makes about Degen, Dossena signings, etc, is right.

Which means it's certainly possible to criticise fairly Rafa's signings last summer. If the thread was about that, that post would be it.

But the thread is about progress, and this is where a view with more perspective is needed, as in, look where we were when Rafa came, and look where we are right now.

And I think we have done not some, but a huge progress. Now we expect the league 5 years ago we couldn't do that reallistically. IN the Europe front, reaching semifinals and finals, should say something, but no, it seems it's an easy competition, I'm just sticking to the concept of challenging for the league title (a competition that seems to be getting easier as Rafa gets the hang of it too).


Some will tell you that if we don't rotate you'll have more chances to win the league. I won't discuss that, but make no mistake, if you play the same 11 thugs every week with little rest and they're mediocre, you won't win the league.

You could be waiting another 19 years.

It's the Reinas, it's the Alonsos, It's the Mascheranos, It's the Gerrards, it's the Torres what makes you win leagues. And just as it's a fact Rafa got wrong some signings in the summer, it's a fact Rafa brought those players (bar the captain), and more importantly, those players want to stay in this team.

We don't have our best players wishing to go, and that means they believe in the project. For progress you need to improve your squad. Before Rafa we had Gerrard and Owen wanting to leave. With Rafa we have quality players surrounding Gerrard and wanting to stay.

Once made clear that there's not some but a huge progress, we could adress the question "is it quick enough?".

Well, before Rafa we had been waiting 15 years to challenge seriously, with Rafa we're reaching that position at the end of his project.

If someone is tempted to make some tinkering and chopping with the managers, let's do so. It seems that we're going to see what happens after all because Rafa hasn't accepted the new contract. We'll know how good are the Klinsmanns, and the Hiddinks (funny this one who I like his style but coached no top clubs from ages ago). But I think it would be a mistake.

Let's see how we do with another not rotating manager, and let's see how people explain why we're not challenging if the worst happens. There will be good and  lengthy explanations, of that, I'm pretty sure.

[maypaxvobiscum]

the way things are going in the transfer market, i dont see us being capable of matching city's or chelsea's or even the scums spending power especially in the current climate. as BM says, we will have to spend smart. this whole money issue has gotten out of control and im worried. if city does end up with kaka, all hell will break lose.