Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu the Red]

F.uck you stu yer negative tw@t. Anywhoooooo I'll get back to you in this thread after the Swansea game . I want to see how we fare after the international break . This for me will be a good marker for the season til chrimbo . We have an opportunity to get some good points on the board . By the by , you were wrong about Lucas before and your still wrong . He's vital to the team and there's no cover for him ,that's my worry .

Mate, I disagree... I've never been wrong about Lucas in my opinion.

Never said the lads anything other than an average player to decent player at best. All I heard when he first signed was that he was dog turd Then I heard people banging on about him being world class. Fact is, the truth has always been somewhere in the middle. Average to decent, who could do a job if you lose your best players through injury or suspension. He gives 100% every game without a doubt, that doesn't mean that over 38 games he has the required quality to play in a league winning side, you would need a pretty exceptional side to win a league with players of his quality as regulars.

I've heard people on here saying he's better than Carrick... I'm sorry but I'm no Carrick lover... (a player for me who's greatly over hyped and crumbles when a marked tightly) but he's a far better and more complete player than Lucas ever has been, or ever will be.

Are you the s.murph who thought Dean Ashton was the dogsbo((ocks when we were interested in Torres back in 2007

Do you mean the same person who believed Ashton was a better player than Crouch in 2006?

But then I suppose you just knew all along he was going to get a career threatening injury just as he was being recognised for being the player he was... I mean its so obvious the lad was going to go over on his ankle in an England training session and his career would be ended... how could I have possibly missed that?

[supersub]

career ended 2009 he was never going to be the player you tried to make him out to be...

[RedAnt]

Tell ya what Stu, your something else. Carry on, sunshine.

[Benny The Noon]

career ended 2009 he was never going to be the player you tried to make him out to be...

The actual injury happened in 2006 - he could never get over it - he finally retired after not playing for over a year

[supersub]

career ended 2009 he was never going to be the player you tried to make him out to be...

The actual injury happened in 2006 - he could never get over it - he finally retired after not playing for over a year

and stu said april 2007 we should get rid of Kuyt and Crouch and bring in Tevez and Ashton...instead we kept them both and brought in Torres

[Benny The Noon]

Well Ashton had spent the whole of the 06/07 season on the physio table ?

[aCe']

Welcome back Stu...

That OP looks like something I'd write after a nice blunt and a couple of Coronas. Not very coherent, but you understand the gist of it. To a large extent, I agree with most of what Stu said. The state of the forum is a bit sad atm especially given the fact that I think its a great time to finally get back to talking footie, tactics, players...etc rather than picking on other posters and their opinions. I know it sounds a bit hypocritical; many here remember the arguments myself, Stu, Mick, Saint, Ciggy, mods..etc had over the years about the exact same 'negativity positivity, real fan, manager mistakes..etc' BS. The difference is, back then both parties -despite everything- put forth some of the best footie discussions this board has seen. Now, every fcking thread seems to be littered with insults aimed at one poster (Benny). Regardless of whether one is right or wrong, surely everyone realizes that it has become boring as fck. The mods have made their stance clear and its a bit pointless ointing it out whenever the fella makes a post.

On a different note and getting back to the topic (I still cant figure out what the topic is to be honest but I'll give it a go), I agree that many of the players we have in the side are average players who arent very likely to get us far in terms of winning the league. With what we have atm, I think we'll need a bit of luck and for Rodgers to make all the right moves (tactically, transfers..etc) to get that 4th spot ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham. Where I dont agree with Stu is the fact that you need 11 top talents on the pitch who are all top players to get to that CL spot. I'm not Henderson's biggest fan, and I agree that he's one of the average players we have. Same with Moses, Aspas, Lucas, Skrtel, Cissokho, etc. However, we do neeed players like Lucas and Henderson to provide that bit of balance and energy to the side in many games.

Again, it all goes back to what our objectives are. For me, a 4th place finish would be an achievement, and probably our goal for the season. For that, I think Lucas in the starting 11 as a player whos primary job is to protect the back4 is good enough. If our objective was winning the league, we'd probably have to look at a better alternative to bring into the starting 11.  A more pressing concern in the starting 11 is that right wing spot. We're currently playing Henderson in the position but he's not someone who is likely to offer you much over 38 games as you put it. Yes, his work rate is good and he'll offer that bit of balance (probably the best option we have unless Moses does a Sturridge and proves to be a gem) but he lacks the creativity and guile needed above and beyond the standard shift that he currently puts in. Another major concern is the lack of a plan B which is largely due to a lack of quality in midfield/forward positions on the bench. It's too early to judge Aspas and Alberto but I have my doubts about both. Funny enough, the area we seemed to struggle with the most (CBs) has suddenly become our strongest in our squad at least in terms of personnel and the quality/options they bring to the table.

Overall for me, theres work to be done but its not as bad as being made out. Top of the league after 3 games means nothing if we can't improve and more importantly build on it. We're 2 players short of having a side that SHOULD get a top4 spot. The squad isn't average and we have some game changers in the side who are yet to play or play to their potential (Suarez, Gerrard, and Coutinho to be exact) so to borrow your line "Fact is, the truth has always been somewhere in the middle" when it comes to our prospects.

[Stu the Red]

Welcome back Stu...

That OP looks like something I'd write after a nice blunt and a couple of Coronas. Not very coherent, but you understand the gist of it. To a large extent, I agree with most of what Stu said. The state of the forum is a bit sad atm especially given the fact that I think its a great time to finally get back to talking footie, tactics, players...etc rather than picking on other posters and their opinions. I know it sounds a bit hypocritical; many here remember the arguments myself, Stu, Mick, Saint, Ciggy, mods..etc had over the years about the exact same 'negativity positivity, real fan, manager mistakes..etc' BS. The difference is, back then both parties -despite everything- put forth some of the best footie discussions this board has seen. Now, every fcking thread seems to be littered with insults aimed at one poster (Benny). Regardless of whether one is right or wrong, surely everyone realizes that it has become boring as fck. The mods have made their stance clear and its a bit pointless ointing it out whenever the fella makes a post.

On a different note and getting back to the topic (I still cant figure out what the topic is to be honest but I'll give it a go), I agree that many of the players we have in the side are average players who arent very likely to get us far in terms of winning the league. With what we have atm, I think we'll need a bit of luck and for Rodgers to make all the right moves (tactically, transfers..etc) to get that 4th spot ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham. Where I dont agree with Stu is the fact that you need 11 top talents on the pitch who are all top players to get to that CL spot. I'm not Henderson's biggest fan, and I agree that he's one of the average players we have. Same with Moses, Aspas, Lucas, Skrtel, Cissokho, etc. However, we do neeed players like Lucas and Henderson to provide that bit of balance and energy to the side in many games.

Again, it all goes back to what our objectives are. For me, a 4th place finish would be an achievement, and probably our goal for the season. For that, I think Lucas in the starting 11 as a player whos primary job is to protect the back4 is good enough. If our objective was winning the league, we'd probably have to look at a better alternative to bring into the starting 11.  A more pressing concern in the starting 11 is that right wing spot. We're currently playing Henderson in the position but he's not someone who is likely to offer you much over 38 games as you put it. Yes, his work rate is good and he'll offer that bit of balance (probably the best option we have unless Moses does a Sturridge and proves to be a gem) but he lacks the creativity and guile needed above and beyond the standard shift that he currently puts in. Another major concern is the lack of a plan B which is largely due to a lack of quality in midfield/forward positions on the bench. It's too early to judge Aspas and Alberto but I have my doubts about both. Funny enough, the area we seemed to struggle with the most (CBs) has suddenly become our strongest in our squad at least in terms of personnel and the quality/options they bring to the table.

Overall for me, theres work to be done but its not as bad as being made out. Top of the league after 3 games means nothing if we can't improve and more importantly build on it. We're 2 players short of having a side that SHOULD get a top4 spot. The squad isn't average and we have some game changers in the side who are yet to play or play to their potential (Suarez, Gerrard, and Coutinho to be exact) so to borrow your line "Fact is, the truth has always been somewhere in the middle" when it comes to our prospects.

Ace, thats the point mate, I don't believe you need 11 world class players. But you do need one or two, and alot of class players aswell as good ones. Liverpool lack the good ones for me mate.

United have good players, as good Chelsea and Arsenal, at Liverpool we've the got the sublime... and dog average. I don't see many dog average players in and around the United, Chelsea and Arsenal line ups, or even Spurs for that matter. I'd even push it and and say Everton have more "good players" than we do... only we have a few top players where they don't (IE Gerrard, Coutinho and Suarez).

With regards to the centre backs though ACE I'm sorry I don't agree. Agger is a good player, but he's not "the answer" so to speak. Toure I'm not overly convinced by, I also have a mate who's a city fan (I have alot of mates these days ) and he says he preferes Lescott and Toure is a bit of a liability (at times, something I am a bit wary of myself).

I think defensively we're quite weak. We protect the defence well as a team, tacitcally I think defensively we're good, but I believe the personel isn't upto it. Sahko is a player however I've seen absoloutely nothing of. If he turns out to be the same level of player Sami Hyypia was then we may well be onto something providing we can convince Reina to come back next season

[aCe']

Welcome back Stu...

That OP looks like something I'd write after a nice blunt and a couple of Coronas. Not very coherent, but you understand the gist of it. To a large extent, I agree with most of what Stu said. The state of the forum is a bit sad atm especially given the fact that I think its a great time to finally get back to talking footie, tactics, players...etc rather than picking on other posters and their opinions. I know it sounds a bit hypocritical; many here remember the arguments myself, Stu, Mick, Saint, Ciggy, mods..etc had over the years about the exact same 'negativity positivity, real fan, manager mistakes..etc' BS. The difference is, back then both parties -despite everything- put forth some of the best footie discussions this board has seen. Now, every fcking thread seems to be littered with insults aimed at one poster (Benny). Regardless of whether one is right or wrong, surely everyone realizes that it has become boring as fck. The mods have made their stance clear and its a bit pointless ointing it out whenever the fella makes a post.

On a different note and getting back to the topic (I still cant figure out what the topic is to be honest but I'll give it a go), I agree that many of the players we have in the side are average players who arent very likely to get us far in terms of winning the league. With what we have atm, I think we'll need a bit of luck and for Rodgers to make all the right moves (tactically, transfers..etc) to get that 4th spot ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham. Where I dont agree with Stu is the fact that you need 11 top talents on the pitch who are all top players to get to that CL spot. I'm not Henderson's biggest fan, and I agree that he's one of the average players we have. Same with Moses, Aspas, Lucas, Skrtel, Cissokho, etc. However, we do neeed players like Lucas and Henderson to provide that bit of balance and energy to the side in many games.

Again, it all goes back to what our objectives are. For me, a 4th place finish would be an achievement, and probably our goal for the season. For that, I think Lucas in the starting 11 as a player whos primary job is to protect the back4 is good enough. If our objective was winning the league, we'd probably have to look at a better alternative to bring into the starting 11.  A more pressing concern in the starting 11 is that right wing spot. We're currently playing Henderson in the position but he's not someone who is likely to offer you much over 38 games as you put it. Yes, his work rate is good and he'll offer that bit of balance (probably the best option we have unless Moses does a Sturridge and proves to be a gem) but he lacks the creativity and guile needed above and beyond the standard shift that he currently puts in. Another major concern is the lack of a plan B which is largely due to a lack of quality in midfield/forward positions on the bench. It's too early to judge Aspas and Alberto but I have my doubts about both. Funny enough, the area we seemed to struggle with the most (CBs) has suddenly become our strongest in our squad at least in terms of personnel and the quality/options they bring to the table.

Overall for me, theres work to be done but its not as bad as being made out. Top of the league after 3 games means nothing if we can't improve and more importantly build on it. We're 2 players short of having a side that SHOULD get a top4 spot. The squad isn't average and we have some game changers in the side who are yet to play or play to their potential (Suarez, Gerrard, and Coutinho to be exact) so to borrow your line "Fact is, the truth has always been somewhere in the middle" when it comes to our prospects.

Ace, thats the point mate, I don't believe you need 11 world class players. But you do need one or two, and alot of class players aswell as good ones. Liverpool lack the good ones for me mate.

United have good players, as good Chelsea and Arsenal, at Liverpool we've the got the sublime... and dog average. I don't see many dog average players in and around the United, Chelsea and Arsenal line ups, or even Spurs for that matter. I'd even push it and and say Everton have more "good players" than we do... only we have a few top players where they don't (IE Gerrard, Coutinho and Suarez).

With regards to the centre backs though ACE I'm sorry I don't agree. Agger is a good player, but he's not "the answer" so to speak. Toure I'm not overly convinced by, I also have a mate who's a city fan (I have alot of mates these days ) and he says he preferes Lescott and Toure is a bit of a liability (at times, something I am a bit wary of myself).

I think defensively we're quite weak. We protect the defence well as a team, tacitcally I think defensively we're good, but I believe the personel isn't upto it. Sahko is a player however I've seen absoloutely nothing of. If he turns out to be the same level of player Sami Hyypia was then we may well be onto something providing we can convince Reina to come back next season

I think it might be easier if I do it this way :

Top bracket (game changer, top quality player) :

Suarez
Gerrard

title contender good:

Coutinho
Johnson
Enrique
Sakho (potentially could become one of the best around)

Top4 good:

Sturridge (if he can continue producing as he has since joining)
Agger
Mignolet

Thats 9 players who for me are good enough given our objectives. I'll take it one bit further for you, if Sturridge manages to develop his all round game a bit more especially in terms of movement inside the box and keeping the ball outside it then I think he can break into the higher bracket soon. Agger is great on the ball but he's one of those players who needs to play alongside a top CB imo to elevate his game and gain that extra bit of confidence that seems to take his game to the next level.
With regards to Lucas, he narrowly missed out on the last bracket for me. I know he doesnt tick all the boxes you'd want your CM to have covered but when fit he covers the pitch well and is a bit of specialty player we have in that regard and a major reason behind the 'team as a whole' defending well imo. That said, replacing him wouldnt be as big a priority for me as say bringing in a backup option is.

Back to your point about 'good players' which is an interesting one, I think the likes of Sakho, Johnson, Enrique, Sturridge, and Coutinho (I know you have him higher but he's yet to earn that for me) from our starting 11 all fall in that category imo. Our bench however lacks in that department. Toure (whom I wasn a big fan of but has done well in the first couple of games so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) is the only player on our bench I'd have on that list which is something I guess we've looked to address by bringing in Aspas (an unknown quantity for me).

We're also disregarding the younger players (Kelly, Sterling, Ibe) who ideally would be going out on loan to get some experience.

[Thommo's perm]

Listening to just 30 minutes of negativity—in person or on television—can damage neurons in the hippocampus, the part of the brain responsible for problem solving. According to Trevor Blake, author of Three Simple Steps: A Map to Success in Business and Life, neuroscientists have demonstrated how the brain reacts to various stimuli such as negativity. “The brain works more like a muscle than we thought,” Blake said to Inc.com. “So if you’re pinned in a corner for too long listening to someone being negative, you’re more likely to behave that way as well.”
Blake explained that being exposed to too much complaining can actually make a person ‘dumb’ because of how it affects the neurons in the hippocampus. A half an hour of complaining “turns your brain to mush.” Despite the detrimental impact of negative thoughts on the brain, Blake said there is a difference between complaining and having someone bring your attention to an important matter which needs to be addressed.
“Typically, people who are complaining don’t want a solution; they just want you to join in the indignity of the whole thing,” he said. “You can almost hear brains clink when six people get together and start saying, ‘Isn’t it terrible?’”
It is this form of negativity which Blake says damages the brain even if an individual is just passively listening. In an office setting, such comments may be unavoidable; however, there are ways to shield the brain from the negative effects of complainers.
The first step, according to Blake, is to distance yourself from the individuals complaining as much as possible. “The approach I’ve always taken with complaining is to think of it as the same as passive smoking,” he explained, indicating he used the same tactic to avoid exposure from his father’s chain smoking. In addition to distance, forcing the negative individual to face the problem can also be beneficial. This tactic is generally employed when someone is unable to distance themselves or walk away from an issue. When confronted with the decision to remedy the problem, Blake says most complainers walk away, or better yet, they actually make an effort to address the complaint.
Lastly, if listening to the complaint is the only option, Blake recommends using mental techniques to shield the brain from the effects of negativity. He describes the process as “like a Harry Potter invisibility cloak,” or mentally journeying to your dream destination.

[Hustler 2]

Negativity isn't aloud on this forum, and people in here are offended deeply by criticism. Hence the reason why a lot of my negative or critical posts have been removed from various threads.

it seems someone (I wonder who) was upset.

[metalhead]

To start this post, I've noticed the last few days the number of personal attacks on anyone who dares to say anything slightly critical has increased tenfold.

To be honest, the "holly-er than thou" attitude of these posters is just as boring as "sh*te" posted by some other members. To be quite honest, the "happy clappy" approach of the majority seems to have formed into some sort of clique that questions someones support because they don't share the same view. I understand, if someone keeps hammering home there opinion to "make someone agree" it can become tiresome... but the ganging up on other members... who really (from my personal point of view" don't get personal with other posters has just become daft.

I used to get slatted quite alot for having the opinion that if you're from an area, you feel it a little bit more. But not once (so far at least ) since coming back to the forum have I used that, or the, you don't go to the game reason as an excuse to have a go at someone.

The reason is quite simple, I TRIED to turn my back on everything for the last few years. I became totally disillusioned with a sport I've played and loved since I was four years old. A sport which provided with an income for a short while and a sport that is loved (even if not understood) by millions.

The money it costs to go to games home and away, europe (if your sides lucky to get there). The way people are so fickle and opinionated on something they have no clue about.

However due to it being such a massive part of my life I found this increasingly impossible... much like an addict who is trying to stay away from drugs, drink or gambling, keep shoving it in their face and they'll probably crack (no pun intended or offence meant to anyone).

I have a friend who trained with Manchester United duing the early 2000's when playing for Bury. We were discussing how good some of the players in the top league are/were and obviously how poor some of the players are. We were talking about the "levels of ability" of players and what makes some players good and some bad and some mediocre and how you can get players in the lower leagues who are better "footballers" than the lads in the premiership but are very average athletes and vice versa and what it takes to compete with better players than yourself and what makes you better than lesser players.

Talking to him and listening to his points got me thinking about the game in more detail than I ever did. I realised that alot of players in the game today don't have the ability level's they are made out to have. Where as some, are so drastically under rated I find it shocking. Having myself played against and with a good number of professionals I started to look at their attributes individually. IE one players touch, one players strength, pace etc and started to compare them to all the other players around the leagues.

Hence the reason there alot of players playing for sides outside the top ten that I think are superb footballers.

Now this leads me onto the thread title. Having looked at these players, (their attributes) and looked at the players signed by LFC over the last few years I don't believe that, me, being positive or negative, will have the slightest effect on the teams performances. I firmly believe that the squad and first XI is lacking in strength and depth and quality. For me, its all well and good to slag someone off when they are down, its great taking the plaudits when they do well. But the thing the great sides all do... is strive for perfection. To take constructive critisism when playing well or getting results is the best time to improve and recieve it. The reasoning is that if you improve you level at its best, its sure to improve your worst performances and over the course of a season, they're the ones that will win you a league title.

What really worries me, is the side has major weaknesses and has rode its luck at times so far. It worries me because I don't believe certain fans can see it and are setting the club up for a fall, and it worries me because I believe a man who is paid millions of pounds a year by the club is also fooled by this and its clouding his judgement.

Yet for some reason, because I'm not going to be lulled int to a false sense of security and think everything is great and rosey... I'm cast as negative, not a fan and blah de blah.

For me, if I didn't care about the club so much, I'd tell you you're all welcome to your average players like Johnson, Lucas, Skrytel and Henderson's of the world and to shove them up your backside... but its the fact I do care and want us to suceed so much that I can't bring myself to be happy about something (being top of the league) that won't last with this clear lack of quality at the club.

What I will say, is that the negativety comes from being able to see a players level of ability. Knowing they aren't good enough, its something that maybe isn't exciting as hoping that they are.

Good post Stu, like all of us we want our club to succeed in the end. You pointed out some constructive criticism which is fair enough in my book and there are a lot of areas that I disagree with you but you do raise some good points regarding player quality, depth etc... I don't think some of the players you mentioned are as bad as you say they are and I do believe players like Skrtel are not good enough for a team that would challenge for top 4 or title. Maybe because we have been battling out for 6th, 7th places the last 3 seasons that average players in our squad has shown better form because there was less pressure on them?

Though, for example, a player like Nani (who you didn't rate in the past) was just shyte the first time he set foot inside Man U, suddenly becomes one of the League's top players for Man U for 2 or 3 seasons running, is it because of ability that was hidden? maturity? or something else? Just a question.

[metalhead]

Seriously Stu, are you just here to start fights? Read the first paragraph and nothing more. Sheesh, the worlds gone soft.

Redant, there is nothing wrong with what he just said, he offered constructive criticism, he might be wrong or he might be right. If you disagree with him just point it out and let's just have a constructive debate.

I enjoy Stu's topics, even If I disagree with it entirely (or agree with half of it), because he knows a lot about the game and it's just interesting to read.

[Thommo's perm]

Negativity isn't aloud on this forum, and people in here are offended deeply by criticism. Hence the reason why a lot of my negative or critical posts have been removed from various threads.

it seems someone (I wonder who) was upset.

Why would you choose to be negative?

[Kenny Kan]

I couldn't stand Lucas when he first came here and it was made worse by the fact everyone thought he was the dog's nuts, he certainly wasn't. And I don't think he ever was that good under Rafa personally. He knew he was some people's scapegoat (he was mine) and was heavily criticised but the lad kept his head down and carried on, subsequently he grew over time and for me started to prove himself under Kenny. He just ploughed away quietly going about his business and came to be an integral part of this current side.

I don't think he's a world beater but he is invaluable to the side and this is highlighted ten fold because we have no other player like him in the side, therefore this means he becomes a key player. I would have liked to have seen Rodgers buy someone to challenge him for the position, but he's pretty much proved me wrong as I thought he'd never cut the mustard here. He still gives away too many cheap silly fouls for me but other than that I'm glad we've got a player of his ilk in our side.

Henderson's another one who IMO gets massively over rated plaudits, he's good but he isn't a world beater (not that you need 11 world beaters) but his game could be upped IMO. He's another North Eastern lad like Downing who lacks the application, he's getting better though and like Lucas in time may go that little bit further.

Toure has been a beast so far, so has the Mig and I think we'll get a good few extra points this season having him between the sticks. Agger, I'm of the similar opinion to StewtheRed.

See how I've taken these negatives and turned them into positives.