Liverpool FC Forum

[Sir Roger]

Some explain to me, seriously without sarcasm or any negative comments or insults how Lucas can merit a starting place in so many games.
We are LFC with all our history and heritage built on the philosophy of Shankly.
Someone justify his inclusion, his participation, what he brings to the team and finally Rafas thinking behind playing him in spite of his performances and the results we get with him in the side.
Please
This is not a joke

for long periods this season mash and lucas have been the first choice because xabi left aqua have been unfit, jay spreaing isn't gonna make it, no one could sit here and say lucas have been a shining light this season but he has stood solid against a lot of criticism from his own fans he has played a position of critical importants and in my eyes he has done a solid job if not spectacular

is he as good as danny murphy would be my criticism.

but a player that gets very little stick and has been at fault for a lot of our goal (take both goals against man u) is our below par lb
insua he has played far to many games this year poss 20 to many , lucas has been 3 time the player that insua has yet all the fans seem hooked on hating him,

top tip. stop getting your opinion from the back pages. or the d!ck down the pub and watch the games

Firstly you dont seem to be able or maybe its that you dont want to answer my question. I asked for someone to explain why he plays so much and what he brings as a player. Also what Rafas reasoning is behind his inclusion considering that the vast majority of people seem to think hes not good enough to play a bit part never mind start as many games as he does
Secondly I said without insults and you go on about back pages, d'icks down the pub and telling me to watch the games. For your kn'obby information I am a season ticket holder and watch every match either live or on tv and never form my opinion on what the pr'icks who write the back pages say or for that matter what the w'ankers in the pub say.
I am intelligent and experienced enough to know what I see in front of my own eyes and form my opinion based on this evidence.

I think that given the majority of people would  also admit Lucas is an honest lad ,that being said it is evident he doesn't hide on the field and his attitude in training is exemplary he takes the substantial amount of abuse he receives regularly on his young shoulders and still puts in a shift ,perhaps Rafa sees this constantly in his disposition ,because I know if I was manager I would warrant Lucas's inclusion in the team ahead of the prima donnas who this season have gone to great lengths to show all and sundry this petulance ,maybe if the correct application was shown in training from certain players then Lucas would not merit a place in the midfield on talent alone ,that much may be a given but one thing rings true it shows Rafa trusts him more than he can trust some ,and that fella would be my explanation as to  Rafa's insistence that he is involved in the first eleven ...

I think basically what people are omitting from their evaluation of the attributes of Lucas is the fact he is obviously requested to play a specific role in the team ,which is that of a holding midfielder a role that is not his niche as I am sure a wide spectrum of supporters will concur with ,in some games this season he has been the steel in the team and I refer to the game against Villa as a relevant example  ,as without his exuberance in midfield making some important interventions then I doubt we would have achieved the win required  and against Lille he provided the springboard for our eventual victory

I think in conclusion Lucas is performing the role he is expected to play by the manager  the fact Lucas covets the role most probably reserved for Aquilani is only privvy to those who took the time to read the Boys aspirations when he first signed ,and I don't recollect him mentioning playing as a defensive mid and if he did I dont remember him being elated at the prospect of playing that position ,no he had more designs on playing a role not dissimilar to Gerrard

Thanks for that
I can see your point but it opens up a can of worms with regards to Rafa
So Rafa sees Lucas training and picks him based on his performances at Melwood? He should watch his performances at proper games and maybe he would reconsider.
Rafa trusts him? To do what? Fu'ck up consistently? Give the ball and free kicks away on a regular basis?
And this would be because he is really a creative attacking midfielder who is being played out of position?
Then Rafa is doing the lad no favours and Lucas should grow a pair like he did against Lille and get into the oppositions area to do something positive instead of being the weakest link who stifles instead of creates

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

I think that given the majority of people would  also admit Lucas is an honest lad ,that being said it is evident he doesn't hide on the field and his attitude in training is exemplary he takes the substantial amount of abuse he receives regularly on his young shoulders and still puts in a shift ,perhaps Rafa sees this constantly in his disposition ,because I know if I was manager I would warrant Lucas's inclusion in the team ahead of the prima donnas who this season have gone to great lengths to show all and sundry this petulance ,maybe if the correct application was shown in training from certain players then Lucas would not merit a place in the midfield on talent alone ,that much may be a given but one thing rings true it shows Rafa trusts him more than he can trust some ,and that fella would be my explanation as to  Rafa's insistence that he is involved in the first eleven ...

I think basically what people are omitting from their evaluation of the attributes of Lucas is the fact he is obviously requested to play a specific role in the team ,which is that of a holding midfielder a role that is not his niche as I am sure a wide spectrum of supporters will concur with ,in some games this season he has been the steel in the team and I refer to the game against Villa as a relevant example  ,as without his exuberance in midfield making some important interventions then I doubt we would have achieved the win required  and against Lille he provided the springboard for our eventual victory

I think in conclusion Lucas is performing the role he is expected to play by the manager  the fact Lucas covets the role most probably reserved for Aquilani is only privvy to those who took the time to read the Boys aspirations when he first signed ,and I don't recollect him mentioning playing as a defensive mid and if he did I dont remember him being elated at the prospect of playing that position ,no he had more designs on playing a role not dissimilar to Gerrard

Thanks for that
I can see your point but it opens up a can of worms with regards to Rafa
So Rafa sees Lucas training and picks him based on his performances at Melwood? He should watch his performances at proper games and maybe he would reconsider.
Rafa trusts him? To do what? Fu'ck up consistently? Give the ball and free kicks away on a regular basis?
And this would be because he is really a creative attacking midfielder who is being played out of position?
Then Rafa is doing the lad no favours and Lucas should grow a pair like he did against Lille and get into the oppositions area to do something positive instead of being the weakest link who stifles instead of creates[/quote]
I believe you requested an honest assessment ,and I think I delivered one ..... that said I don't believe Lucas is a liability consistently ,or as you put it F**ks up if that statement was true then I would find it increasingly more difficult to give credence to his inclusion in the team and so would many others

[Sir Roger]

I think that given the majority of people would  also admit Lucas is an honest lad ,that being said it is evident he doesn't hide on the field and his attitude in training is exemplary he takes the substantial amount of abuse he receives regularly on his young shoulders and still puts in a shift ,perhaps Rafa sees this constantly in his disposition ,because I know if I was manager I would warrant Lucas's inclusion in the team ahead of the prima donnas who this season have gone to great lengths to show all and sundry this petulance ,maybe if the correct application was shown in training from certain players then Lucas would not merit a place in the midfield on talent alone ,that much may be a given but one thing rings true it shows Rafa trusts him more than he can trust some ,and that fella would be my explanation as to  Rafa's insistence that he is involved in the first eleven ...

I think basically what people are omitting from their evaluation of the attributes of Lucas is the fact he is obviously requested to play a specific role in the team ,which is that of a holding midfielder a role that is not his niche as I am sure a wide spectrum of supporters will concur with ,in some games this season he has been the steel in the team and I refer to the game against Villa as a relevant example  ,as without his exuberance in midfield making some important interventions then I doubt we would have achieved the win required  and against Lille he provided the springboard for our eventual victory

I think in conclusion Lucas is performing the role he is expected to play by the manager  the fact Lucas covets the role most probably reserved for Aquilani is only privvy to those who took the time to read the Boys aspirations when he first signed ,and I don't recollect him mentioning playing as a defensive mid and if he did I dont remember him being elated at the prospect of playing that position ,no he had more designs on playing a role not dissimilar to Gerrard

Thanks for that
I can see your point but it opens up a can of worms with regards to Rafa
So Rafa sees Lucas training and picks him based on his performances at Melwood? He should watch his performances at proper games and maybe he would reconsider.
Rafa trusts him? To do what? Fu'ck up consistently? Give the ball and free kicks away on a regular basis?
And this would be because he is really a creative attacking midfielder who is being played out of position?
Then Rafa is doing the lad no favours and Lucas should grow a pair like he did against Lille and get into the oppositions area to do something positive instead of being the weakest link who stifles instead of creates

I believe you requested an honest assessment ,and I think I delivered one ..... that said I don't believe Lucas is a liability consistently ,or as you put it F**ks up if that statement was true then I would find it increasingly more difficult to give credence to his inclusion in the team and so would many others[/quote]
I did thank you for your reply and I meant it
We differ on what Lucas contributes (or not as the case maybe) to the team.
I see his play in a negative and mainly unhelpful way while you see it in a more positive way. As for credence to his inclusion, I personally dont know anyone who rates him as highly as you seem to.
Whilst I wont blame him alone for the way weve played this season, I believe that his constant presence and style of play has contributed immensely to the situation we find ourselves in.
All with the blessing of the manager.

[Kerry07]

Really good comments from all.

As Roger says in wanting an answer as to how does lucas merit a starting place in rafas eyes.... just as Mark Lawrenson said on commentary "what does lucas actually do"?

The response (bizarre validation in rafas eyes) by Goggles is dead right in that its his honesty as a player in that he will give all he has (which is very little) and aint a primmadonna.


Totally true... and as i said repeatedly, Rafa being a dictator likes yes men/obedient footsoldiers (kuyt/lucas).. regardless of their lack of talent, as he will choose them over far more talented outspoken people (Bellamy). Our dressing room is very quiet, they are programmed to be obedient, no backchat, no big personalities..or else they are out the door. This means few leaders on the field.. as rafa the dictator is running the show.

To echo Fowlers sentiments... Give me 10 classy primmadonnas over 10 honest average joes every day of the week. Thats the ethos of Whiskey nose... he will kiss the a'ss of these primmadonnas (Cantona, Ronaldo) because they are match winners.. difference makers. He sees the bigger picture... and overlooks indescretions (Roy keane snapping Haaland in half, Cantona putting his foot through a fan) and will defend them to the hilt, as he knows these people win you trophies, loud mouth winners. The Govan alky has got balls and will do what it takes to win. F'uck morals gimme medals.


Lucas being an average joe in the most important, most influential position slap bang in the middle of the field, where everything goes through... means dire consequences... and 16 losses and counting. The sole change from last season ..lucas for Alonso... has been too big a downgrade for the team to contend with...,

Impact on the defence... the back 4 no longer have anyone coming deep from central midfield to take the ball off them and construct play, so for the 1st time since pre Alonso they (Carra and co.) now have to HOOF it..which gives away possession, opposition get more of the ball, more attacks.. team is constantly under pressure. (Lyon had 17 shots at ANFIELD)

Impact on midfield... no passing dictator, no control of the midfield, the least productive, least creative central midfield since Souness was manager. Its 'loose as f'uck' in there and the passing breaks down very quickly.

Impact on the attack... they get next to no service from midfield, no penetrating passes that cut open a defence, no reverse passes, no diagonal cross field passes out wide, no supply as theres no one with any passing range that can "make the assist for the assist". With the worlds best ball striking attacking midfielder and the worlds most clinical striker.. we have gone games this year without a shot on target. They aint being fed hence their totally justified frustration. I too would get angry playing infront of garbage thats impeding on my performance.


Gerrard in his comments in December on his "devastation" on losing Alonso (replaced by lucas) touched on these very aspects we've missed.. while Aqualini stated "everything went through Alonso".

We ripped out the pivot of the team and replaced him with a carthorse... an honest carthorse.

The sickening thing is we all saw an excellent Alonso replacement Wesley Sneijder put in a masterclass against Chelsea.

If your midfield is diabolical, the devastating knock-on-effect to the rest of the team is massive as we have seen with the sole change from last season. Have we lost 20 games in a season since the War??

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

I see his play in a negative and mainly unhelpful way while you see it in a more positive way. As for credence to his inclusion, I personally dont know anyone who rates him as highly as you seem to.
Whilst I wont blame him alone for the way weve played this season, I believe that his constant presence and style of play has contributed immensely to the situation we find ourselves in.
All with the blessing of the manager.

Thankfully I do know personally a great deal of fans that believe Lucas has been  a vital cog when the occasion has arisen were the emphasis has been placed on grinding out a result ,the Kid in all its simplicity performs a service its as succinct as that ,I think the more potent question would be to question the input of the so called flair players because Lucas would not be constantly put under the microscope if these players deemed it important to actually execute a tackle or apply any type of aptitude for the task in hand ........

Listen I have no intention of constantly reiterating why I have seen Lucas as a decent player this season ,lets face it we haven't been completely inundated with star performers have we ,that said I think currently we need more invention especially as the players I was referring to have suddenly decided to put in appearance ,but given our diabolical start to the season Lucas's inclusion was an essential and I for one was glad of it ,and I will fight that Lads corner implicitly for that participation alone .........

I will now let this thread run its course wherever that direction may be ,I would proffer a suggestion though give the Lad some credit for his involvement earlier in the Season  because in some important games  without his application to the job he was required to do whether that be described at its kindest as workmanlike or not, we would have been struggling to produce anything like an industrious display 


So with that in mind I leave this thread to those conducting a more structured  and well balanced debate  

[Kerry07]

pmsl.. oh dear...

i addressed him as goggles ......but having skimmed very quickly through his latest post... beergoggles is definitely appropriate.

[Sir Roger]

I see his play in a negative and mainly unhelpful way while you see it in a more positive way. As for credence to his inclusion, I personally dont know anyone who rates him as highly as you seem to.
Whilst I wont blame him alone for the way weve played this season, I believe that his constant presence and style of play has contributed immensely to the situation we find ourselves in.
All with the blessing of the manager.

Thankfully I do know personally a great deal of fans that believe Lucas has been  a vital cog when the occasion has arisen were the emphasis has been placed on grinding out a result ,the Kid in all its simplicity performs a service its as succinct as that ,I think the more potent question would be to question the input of the so called flair players because Lucas would not be constantly put under the microscope if these players deemed it important to actually execute a tackle or apply any type of aptitude for the task in hand ........

Listen I have no intention of constantly reiterating why I have seen Lucas as a decent player this season ,lets face it we haven't been completely inundated with star performers have we ,that said I think currently we need more invention especially as the players I was referring to have suddenly decided to put in appearance ,but given our diabolical start to the season Lucas's inclusion was an essential and I for one was glad of it ,and I will fight that Lads corner implicitly for that participation alone .........

I will now let this thread run its course wherever that direction may be ,I would proffer a suggestion though give the Lad some credit for his involvement earlier in the Season  because in some important games  without his application to the job he was required to do whether that be described at its kindest as workmanlike or not, we would have been struggling to produce anything like an industrious display 


So with that in mind I leave this thread to those conducting a more structured  and well balanced debate  

I think in a nutshell you seem to be saying we would be worse off without Lucas this season than we already are.

I agree with what you say-
You should leave this thread and have a lie down...

[Kerry07]

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

You just stay in the company your comfortable in , I'm sure Kerry will sleep top and tail

[Sir Roger]

You just stay in the company your comfortable in , I'm sure Kerry will sleep top and tail

Thought youd gone?

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

pmsl.. oh dear...

i addressed him as goggles ......but having skimmed very quickly through his latest post... beergoggles is definitely appropriate.

I of course made the mistake of humouring the roots that often loiter in this thread 

[LFC2007]

Our dressing room is very quiet, they are programmed to be obedient, no backchat, no big personalities..or else they are out the door. This means few leaders on the field.. as rafa the dictator is running the show.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Our dressing room is very quiet, they are programmed to be obedient, no backchat, no big personalities..or else they are out the door. This means few leaders on the field.. as rafa the dictator is running the show.

I know ....  George Orwell is alive and well and living in the Lucas thread   

[Kerry07]

Not to deviate from this lucas non appreciation society... but the first thing general Franco...sorry Rafa... observed when he walked through the door at Melwood, was the clique of Gerrard, Owen, Carra and the Murph sitting together at the canteen table. This spelt trouble for raf.. as a tight knit group within a group made it a harder dressing room for him to dictate/control. So he broke them up...weakened player power/opinion. Discarded two (he had zero intention of keeping Owen) and made people sit with a different player each week. In 2003 he did the same at Valencia and was quoted as doing so.

This isolating players so they dont build up close ties means there is no mutiny.. no insubordination...as this is rafas ship, he alone is steering it. Pako was dumped overboard as he dared to differ with rafa in a few team matters... then stated he "no longer knew him". Having got rid of him he then got rid of Parry and co.. and is the ONLY manager in the league that has TOTAL control of transfers... and answers to no one.

Hes a control freak... hence his love of obedient yes men (lucas/kuyt) regardless of their lack of talent.

[LFC2007]

Not to deviate from this lucas non appreciation society... but the first thing general Franco...sorry Rafa... observed when he walked through the door at Melwood, was the clique of Gerrard, Owen, Carra and the Murph sitting together at the canteen table. This spelt trouble for raf.. as a tight knit group within a group made it a harder dressing room for him to dictate/control. So he broke them up...weakened player power/opinion. Discarded two (he had zero intention of keeping Owen) and made people sit with a different player each week. In 2003 he did the same at Valencia and was quoted as doing so.

This isolating players so they dont build up close ties means there is no mutiny.. no insubordination...as this is rafas ship, he alone is steering it. Pako was dumped overboard as he dared to differ with rafa in a few team matters... then stated he "no longer knew him". Having got rid of him he then got rid of Parry and co.. and is the ONLY manager in the league that has TOTAL control of transfers... and answers to no one.

Hes a control freak... hence his love of obedient yes men (lucas/kuyt) regardless of their lack of talent.

1) "I was very happy with Michael and I wanted him to stay. The problem was he only had a year left on his contract," said Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez.

Link

I remember him saying the same thing in a press conference.

2) Mutiny, insubordination etc.

3) I never really got the 'greater control of transfers' thing. Top flight managers in this country typically have the final say on who comes and who goes, while the board determine the budget. That's right since it's the manager's role to shape the team and the board's role to manage the finances. Other than in rare instances (our pursuit of Barry for example), I fail to see much room for overlap between the two areas.

5) The persistent selection of Kuyt and Lucas is evidence of a cautious management style, yes.

Separately, there are legitimate questions to be posed about his man-management style but to be as specific and absolute as to say he's a 'control freak' and a 'dictator' on the basis of the evidence available is ridiculous.