Liverpool FC Forum

[Nando26]

On the subject of subs mine would be

Cavalieri - as far as second choise keepers go i cant really see were the complaints would come from
Skrtel/Agger - I would choose agger for mmy starting 11 but it depends on injurys. They would be in most teams first choice apart from the elite teams so again no complaints again
Benyoun - The perfect sub simple because he can change games
Aurielo - Versatile & when fit is top draw (infact if he stayed fit hed be up thier with the best) so again no complaints
Lucas - I know alot of people dont rate him but hes been class this pre season &  if he comes good he will best top class (this is coming from someoe who watches brazilian football) trust me he has so much more  to offer
Babel - pretty much same as Lucas (but im less comvinced he has the attitude to reach his potential
Kelly - Id go for him because hes versatile & i really think hell be a star in the not to distant future

I know people will have different opinions spearing for lucas nemeth for babel maybe but i think on a whole we would always have a strong bench maybe its the 18 onwards that we fall short on but giving time i think we will always improve under rafa

[account deleted by request]

One player you seem to have left out of your post mate......... Robbie Keane. The fact that if we had bought someone more suitable with our £20million, or maybe once having bought him we had tried to get him playing to the level he can rather than destroying his confidence may have had a little something to do with us falling just short.

Quite possibly but Robbie Keane never suited the 4-2-3-1 formation and we shouldn't have changed it just to accommodate him.

People said let him play off Torres but he isn't a supporting midfielder, he's a forward who drops off. They are different roles. Bergkamp, Zola, Gudjohnsen, Keane that sort of player works with their back to goal rather than the Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes (in his hayday) who work latching onto the lose ball.

We tried the 4-4-2 with Torres and Keane but then Torres' injuries started to hit and we were back to square one. And Keane will never be a lone forward.

So possibly if the £20 million had been spent better or Torres stayed injury free so he and Keane could have linked up more often, we may have won the league.

I won't argue with you about the role that Keane plays other than to say I disagree.(for me he is a forward that drops deep rather than a creative second striker like the others you name). I do agree that he wasn't the player that we needed and that if we hadn't made that mistake it could have made all the difference in the world to our season.

However if we needed a top player last season to suppliment Torres and Gerrard, surely we still need one now? Yes we can gamble on Torres and Gerrard both remaining injury free and that Wash, Voronin and Babel can fill in for the odd game, but I would feel much happier if we had the right player waiting in the wings.......... just in case!

[Nando26]

apologys for grammer....................its late

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

The same thing is happening at Anfield. Rafa hates losing and won't allow his players to lose anymore, very rarely will you see a Liverpool side give up the fight.   And we have world class players all over the park.

Sometimes you just get the feeling that you're too far apart with somebody to have a meaningful discussion 

Yep I get that feeling as well as lad.

People who can't see a world class keeper in Reina, a world class centre half in Carragher and quite possibly Agger, a world class midfielder in Mascherano and Gerrard as well as a world class in Torres.

Silly me eh, what world class players all over the park do we have?

Anybody gonna take me up on the bet the reply is "what about the wide areas?"?

[account deleted by request]

It might be better not to get drawn into the World class player debate. It never ends, is very boring and by the time we have defined what a World class player is everyone has lost interest anyway

BTW we have two world class players in my view ..... Gerrard and Torres. That does not mean the other players are cr@p, poor or nor worth their shirts, just that imo we only have two.

[Nando26]

The same thing is happening at Anfield. Rafa hates losing and won't allow his players to lose anymore, very rarely will you see a Liverpool side give up the fight.   And we have world class players all over the park.

Sometimes you just get the feeling that you're too far apart with somebody to have a meaningful discussion 

Yep I get that feeling as well as lad.

People who can't see a world class keeper in Reina, a world class centre half in Carragher and quite possibly Agger, a world class midfielder in Mascherano and Gerrard as well as a world class in Torres.

Silly me eh, what world class players all over the park do we have?

Anybody gonna take me up on the bet the reply is "what about the wide areas?"?

I know what you mean mate

Its like people wont be happy until we have world class players in every position in the squad

Its never been that way even Liverpools best teams had players in fans werent happy about & itll always be that way

some people wont the world i tell you

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

I won't argue with you about the role that Keane plays other than to say I disagree.(for me he is a forward that drops deep rather than a creative second striker like the others you name). I do agree that he wasn't the player that we needed and that if we hadn't made that mistake it could have made all the difference in the world to our season.

However if we needed a top player last season to suppliment Torres and Gerrard, surely we still need one now? Yes we can gamble on Torres and Gerrard both remaining injury free and that Wash, Voronin and Babel can fill in for the odd game, but I would feel much happier if we had the right player waiting in the wings.......... just in case!

Firstly I'd just start by saying I don't like all these new fancy phrases in modern football. Second striker, defensive midfielder. A forward is a forward, a midfielder is a midfielder, a defender is a defender and a keeper is a keeper. So for me Keane was a forward who liked to drop off as were the others I mentioned, in my opinion, but fair enough if you think they played a different role. Got no problem with that, other than I think it's another phrase invented to make a simple game even more complicated.

And secondly I agree. Last season Rafa decided we needed somebody in attack along with Stevie and Nando. Rafa, not Rick Parry as some might think, thought Keane was the answer as it turned out he wasn't. So it is probably safe to assume Rafa still thinks we need one now.

However last year we didn't have Voronin, this year we do. Now I'm not for one minute thinking Voronin is the answer or the best out there, but maybe that's why we're not going for somebody to play that role. Rafa tried the 4-4-2 last year, saw it worked to a point but the 4-2-3-1 gives us better options so he won't be looking to mess that up. Maybe Rafa thinks that if we need that kind of player, Voronin can do the job. I hope he isn't thinking that way, but he may be.

This again though comes back round to the point I made earlier to the lad who thinks we're "too far apart to have a meaningful conversation". Who realistically could we get to do the job instead of Voronin? I like Pacheco, but he's not yet ready so it means signing a player. Good players don't come cheap, Keane proved that last summer. So we're basically stuck.

[LFC2007]

However last year we didn't have Voronin, this year we do.

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

The same thing is happening at Anfield. Rafa hates losing and won't allow his players to lose anymore, very rarely will you see a Liverpool side give up the fight.   And we have world class players all over the park.

Sometimes you just get the feeling that you're too far apart with somebody to have a meaningful discussion 

Yep I get that feeling as well as lad.

People who can't see a world class keeper in Reina, a world class centre half in Carragher and quite possibly Agger, a world class midfielder in Mascherano and Gerrard as well as a world class in Torres.

Silly me eh, what world class players all over the park do we have?

Anybody gonna take me up on the bet the reply is "what about the wide areas?"?

I know what you mean mate

Its like people wont be happy until we have world class players in every position in the squad

Its never been that way even Liverpools best teams had players in fans werent happy about & itll always be that way

some people wont the world i tell you

Some people want and expect 11 world class players and then a squad that is full of 20 more world class players. They fail to see that's impossible to have. Firstly because the wages would be over a half a billion a week, secondly there'd be too many egos not working in harmony and thirdly nobody would be prepared to do the "ugly" or "donkey" work.

In years gone by Liverpool have been built on hard work with the quality.

John Toshack wasn't world class but f**k me he was quality for the side and worked fantastically well with Keegan. Jimmy Case wasn't world class, Tommy Smith wasn't world class, Joey Jones wasn't world class. But they did the job that was asked of them by the manager.

Jim Beglin, Craig Johnston, Ronnie Whelan, Ray Houghton. Hardly world class superstars but required desperately by the side.

Kuyt, Benayoun, Riera, Spearing, Darby, Ngog. Hardly world class or ever likely to be but are or may be in the future needed for the success of this club.

People won't accept that though, no we must have 11 superstars and then when it doesn't work out get our knives out for the manager.

[account deleted by request]

I won't argue with you about the role that Keane plays other than to say I disagree.(for me he is a forward that drops deep rather than a creative second striker like the others you name). I do agree that he wasn't the player that we needed and that if we hadn't made that mistake it could have made all the difference in the world to our season.

However if we needed a top player last season to suppliment Torres and Gerrard, surely we still need one now? Yes we can gamble on Torres and Gerrard both remaining injury free and that Wash, Voronin and Babel can fill in for the odd game, but I would feel much happier if we had the right player waiting in the wings.......... just in case!

Firstly I'd just start by saying I don't like all these new fancy phrases in modern football. Second striker, defensive midfielder. A forward is a forward, a midfielder is a midfielder, a defender is a defender and a keeper is a keeper. So for me Keane was a forward who liked to drop off as were the others I mentioned, in my opinion, but fair enough if you think they played a different role. Got no problem with that, other than I think it's another phrase invented to make a simple game even more complicated.

And secondly I agree. Last season Rafa decided we needed somebody in attack along with Stevie and Nando. Rafa, not Rick Parry as some might think, thought Keane was the answer as it turned out he wasn't. So it is probably safe to assume Rafa still thinks we need one now.

However last year we didn't have Voronin, this year we do. Now I'm not for one minute thinking Voronin is the answer or the best out there, but maybe that's why we're not going for somebody to play that role. Rafa tried the 4-4-2 last year, saw it worked to a point but the 4-2-3-1 gives us better options so he won't be looking to mess that up. Maybe Rafa thinks that if we need that kind of player, Voronin can do the job. I hope he isn't thinking that way, but he may be.

This again though comes back round to the point I made earlier to the lad who thinks we're "too far apart to have a meaningful conversation". Who realistically could we get to do the job instead of Voronin? I like Pacheco, but he's not yet ready so it means signing a player. Good players don't come cheap, Keane proved that last summer. So we're basically stuck.

I sadly agree mate. I posted in another thread that the problem is the players that will come are probably either too expensive or just not good enough, especially in a World Cup year when EVERYONE wants to be playing rather than warming a bench.

Players that it would be worth changing our formation for such as Villa we can't afford, while the rest know that they will get few chances while Gerrard and Torres are fit. Maybe we could go for a plan "b" type player , someone like Crouch who can come on and change the focus when needed.

We should have gambled on Owen

[bigmick]

It's rare for me but I just can't be bothered to be totally truthful Nobodies got their "knives out for the manager" BTW, my concern is that he isn't been given the money to fill the glaringly obvious holes in the squad. At least I think they're glaringly obvious anyway  . Perhaps Masherano and Martin Skyrtel taking it in turns at right back is what some people think title challenges are made of, or David N'Gog on his own up front, but we'll just have to agree to differ.

As I say though leaving all of that stuff aside, it's fairly clear to me that the manager isn't being supported sufficiently in his transfer dealings and that's a major worry.

[Tim LFC]

^^ Yeah i think we have a good team. Sure we can have some improvements. But as a whole i feel were progressing. At least we are because i think Man U are going backwards. I know it's hard to get a player as good as Ronaldo and Tevez. But they have the money and should of spent some on better players. I think they've shot themselves in the foot.

However Rafa has brought in a younger and better RB who will get better and aid us on the the wings. I think Rafa figured out we need a more attacking player to break down teams that park buses in Anfield and he's done that by buying Aquilani. Lucas is starting to shine. Reira looks to be more accustomed to the PL this season and i hope he can score more as he's got a great left foot.

I think our youth will take time but i think Rafa is going to start trying more. And i also think because of the keane fiasco Rafa will be more cautious and aware in who we sign. So far i feel we've signed 2 quality players who will strengthen our team. I think we also have at least one more signing. I think Rafa has finally understood we need to win games instead of draw and that's probably why he wants to pick the best players he can to buy. Now were not millionaires but Rafa still has some money so lets see what other signings he has.

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

I won't argue with you about the role that Keane plays other than to say I disagree.(for me he is a forward that drops deep rather than a creative second striker like the others you name). I do agree that he wasn't the player that we needed and that if we hadn't made that mistake it could have made all the difference in the world to our season.

However if we needed a top player last season to suppliment Torres and Gerrard, surely we still need one now? Yes we can gamble on Torres and Gerrard both remaining injury free and that Wash, Voronin and Babel can fill in for the odd game, but I would feel much happier if we had the right player waiting in the wings.......... just in case!

Firstly I'd just start by saying I don't like all these new fancy phrases in modern football. Second striker, defensive midfielder. A forward is a forward, a midfielder is a midfielder, a defender is a defender and a keeper is a keeper. So for me Keane was a forward who liked to drop off as were the others I mentioned, in my opinion, but fair enough if you think they played a different role. Got no problem with that, other than I think it's another phrase invented to make a simple game even more complicated.

And secondly I agree. Last season Rafa decided we needed somebody in attack along with Stevie and Nando. Rafa, not Rick Parry as some might think, thought Keane was the answer as it turned out he wasn't. So it is probably safe to assume Rafa still thinks we need one now.

However last year we didn't have Voronin, this year we do. Now I'm not for one minute thinking Voronin is the answer or the best out there, but maybe that's why we're not going for somebody to play that role. Rafa tried the 4-4-2 last year, saw it worked to a point but the 4-2-3-1 gives us better options so he won't be looking to mess that up. Maybe Rafa thinks that if we need that kind of player, Voronin can do the job. I hope he isn't thinking that way, but he may be.

This again though comes back round to the point I made earlier to the lad who thinks we're "too far apart to have a meaningful conversation". Who realistically could we get to do the job instead of Voronin? I like Pacheco, but he's not yet ready so it means signing a player. Good players don't come cheap, Keane proved that last summer. So we're basically stuck.

I sadly agree mate. I posted in another thread that the problem is the players that will come are probably either too expensive or just not good enough, especially in a World Cup year when EVERYONE wants to be playing rather than warming a bench.

Players that it would be worth changing our formation for such as Villa we can't afford, while the rest know that they will get few chances while Gerrard and Torres are fit. Maybe we could go for a plan "b" type player , someone like Crouch who can come on and change the focus when needed.

We should have gambled on Owen

I think I said on this thread, but Kenwyne Jones is the most realistic option of the "plan b" player. Somebody who is strong and can hold it up well. Maybe that or John Carew but he may be just a few bob too much as well.

On the Owen thing, I don't think he is a "plan b" player. If we were struggling brought Owen on, then we'll still be struggling in my opinion. Simple because there'd be no space for him against the sides that just stick 11 men behind the ball or even if there was space he'd need somebody to flick it on for him and Torres isn't that sort of player. He doesn't have the pace anymore to get onto Stevie's through balls. So I would fail to see just how Owen would have fitted this side even though I still consider him one of the best finishers in the league.

At United he has forwards who drop off in Rooney and Berbatov so they can slide the ball through where he doesn't have to run further than 10 yards.

[account deleted by request]

However last year we didn't have Voronin, this year we do.

   

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

It's rare for me but I just can't be bothered to be totally truthful Nobodies got their "knives out for the manager" BTW, my concern is that he isn't been given the money to fill the glaringly obvious holes in the squad. At least I think they're glaringly obvious anyway  . Perhaps Masherano and Martin Skyrtel taking it in turns at right back is what some people think title challenges are made of, or David N'Gog on his own up front, but we'll just have to agree to differ.

As I say though leaving all of that stuff aside, it's fairly clear to me that the manager isn't being supported sufficiently in his transfer dealings and that's a major worry.

I can't comment on Masherano or Skyrtel being right backs as I haven't a clue on who they are but I don't consider Mascherano or Skrtel to be right backs. Mind you they filled in when a) Arbeloa was injured, b) Darby was injured and c) Carra refused to play there.

Credit where it's due, you did spell N'Gog right. And here we agree, not only on spelling, but him not being a lone forward. I don't recall me saying he was, but then again my memory is like your spelling of Liverpool's players - very poor. Then again when he did play up top on his own against Sunderland at Anfield he put in a fantastic performance and was man of the match after a goal and an assist for Yossi. If my, very poor, memory serves me right that was the game Mascherano spent at right back?

And to sum up we agree on the fact that the manager hasn't been backed in the transfer market sufficiently this summer. What he's had to spend has come largely from sales of his own players. But that's no reason to doubt us because the manager has proven time and time again how he can find bargains on a pittance.