Bring pacheco into starting line-up? - Would you?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Bring pacheco into starting line-up? - Would you?

Yes
72
88%
No
10
12%
 
Total votes : 82

Postby Sir Roger » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:44 am

Owzat wrote:Let's be open minded about this, we've had times without key players before and struggled without so why not try something different? It's not as if we'd be throwing him in at the deep end against one of the big(ger) clubs

But doesn't this merely highlight the fact that, as mentioned in the criticism of not doing so earlier and spending £25m on TWO full-backs, Rafa doesn't seem keen to give youth a chance - even off the bench and even when it is a player he brought here?!?!? The problem with Rafa's substitutions goes much further than just timing, it is just so bad it makes me almost wish he didn't bother.


Bench options - largely defensive, having a GK, full-back, CB and Spearing on the bench out of seven is just wasteful. I think the idea of seven was to give more options, Rafa just puts an extra defender or two on the bench. When he had five options he'd have had only the GK and CB. So he then takes off Degen and brings on SKRTEL ???

Timing - too late, normally around minutes 66-70. It comes across as an afterthought, as if we are playing well. Doesn't matter when if you are 2-0 up or even 1-0 up and playing well, but when we're behind or not playing well he still dallies. Sometimes it takes a goal around the 65 minute mark before he changes anything. Some seem to be token substitutions serving no purpose other than to perhaps waste time. Maybe with no real big artillery on the bench Rafa knows what he does won't make any impact so gives his starting XI more time, in which case why make a change at all!?!??

Purpose - is it clear how some of his substitutions are going to change a game? Bringing on Dossena/Aurelio for instance, either at LB or LM, how is that going to make a difference? I guess there is always fresh legs, but then surely all players on the bench have fresh legs but not all the changes make sense

Predictability - I'd love to know how many times it has been LM for LM as the first (choice) change ie when it isn't an injury replacement. As I've said before, he doesn't want to take off his darlings so he's narrowed down the options straight away, not often is it a defender/keeper, Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt or Mascherano so that only leaves like Lucas and whoever is playing LM. (in case anyone ever wondered why it is often the LM, that is the only remotely logical reasoning I can come up with, it's who he doesn't want to take off more than who is having a bad game)

Formation - it isn't often he changes the formation with his substitutions, usually straight swaps, which doesn't help our cause if we're playing badly as you can only bring off three players and, even if Gerrard or Torres aren't playing well it won't be them, you know it isn't going to make that much difference. He likes to maintain the 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 / whatever you want to call it formation and some of that is the problem, the substitutions don't shake things up and pose different problems, it merely puts a player not deemed good enough to start onto the pitch and the limitations of the formation stay the same. Sometimes it isn't just the personnel not working, it can be the formation and how that 'works'. And we don't always need two DMs on the pitch, even if we played two behind the striker and one DM it would be SOMETHING DIFFERENT. For me taking Mascherano off would one of the first things I'd consider, he is the most defensive of the midfield and attacking starters and not exactly creative. That isn't to say you couldn't take off Lucas or go three at the back, but normally if you want to be more attacking you sacrifice one of your least attacking and most defensive options. I'm no fan of three at the back, not for us anyway, so that only leaves the deepest midfielders. I know plenty have reservations about taking him off, but if we're not winning and we want/NEED to score goals then how likely is it Mascherano will facilitate that? More likely he'll push up and fire wildly over than contribute a goal or to one

Logic - how often have we all sat watching and thought "WTF?!? Why is he taking off (eg) Benayoun when so and so is having such a stinker!?!? I know plenty on here don't like Kuyt much, perhaps if he got taken off when he is having a stinker (it happens, not as often as some make out but it does) then he'd get less stick.

Youre right
He is SO rigid it is insane
For such a student of the game who analyses and scrutinises every minute detail he is woefully predictable and boring. Its a pity he doesnt turn his beady eye on himself so he could understand how the shi'ttest of teams suss us out and know exactly what to do to beat us
Master tactician my a'rse
:no
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Postby Espionage » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:49 am

Wow, my vote made it 22-0 in favour of bringing him in...

That is a resounding yes, lets see what happens
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Postby alxy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:06 am

We need fresh players. Players who come in with that added enthusiasm and spark. That can only come from the reserve players who are hungry for success. Not saying our current batch lack the hunger, but looking at them play against Reading, I couldn't detect one single player who seemed to want to win that badly. Put it down to a lack of confidence or maybe to the extreme of not wanting to play for the manager....whatever. Bottom-line, we need to drastically change things around. The current batch is going nowehere. Top 4? We'll be lucky to make it to Top 6 at this rate!
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Postby bunglemark2 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:09 am

Only thing is, he's very lightweight....he might need a few Supersize meals in McD's before he steps on the pitch...
http://s2.tinypic.com/30ldif7_th.jpg
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Postby alxy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:19 am

Well, Messi is equally lightweight.......
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Postby bunglemark2 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:22 am

You're comparing Messi with Pacheco ?
What planet are you on ? Have you even SEEN Pacheco play ?
Ya muppet....
http://s2.tinypic.com/30ldif7_th.jpg
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Postby shawnk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:44 am

hehe, I think he does look like Messi in terms of physical size.
But on the other hand, I always think he plays like Messy (nevermind the standard). I reckon he would be one of the great player from Liverpool like Gerrard. Dont ask me based on what but it's just one of those impression on certain players when you see them play the first time.
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Postby Johnny Boy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:02 am

Yes but not sure he will - especially against a physical Stoke side.
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Postby Ben Patrick » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:10 am

He should have had far more opportunities this season and this is one of my main irritations with Rafa.
7 subs we can have and he has hardly been on the bench.
Instead we have had for most of the season Dossena and Degen and loads of not good enough fringe players that have had chances and we know dont cut it.

He should have come on the other night as well.
I know injuries didnt help but i'd of had him on after about an hour for Aquilani who was a total passenger.

The lad has talent, thats not a doubt. Whether he will cut it at the higher level we wont know until he is given some playing time.
One thing is for sure, he cant do much worse can he ?
Sabre looks like a big lezzer
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Postby Waldo » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:32 am

I think we'll see Pachecho over the next 2 games. With all the injuries we have he has to at least make the bench. Not sure about starting him but definately a subs appearance. See what the lad is made of.
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Postby Kopite-Jud » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:00 pm

been saying this for months, and Nemeth the kid is class! even Lauri Dalla Valle looks like a bright future :cool:
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Postby JoeTerp » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:01 pm

Pacheco was scheduled to play in both our league cup matches but was suffered an injury right before the Leeds match and was called up to Spanish U19 duty before the Arsenal match.
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Postby aCe' » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:44 pm

starting lineup ?
No
Squad ?
Yes

We still have Riera, Maxi and (Babel) as wide players available for games,
We have Kuyt, Ngog and (Babel) as Forwards
Down the middle we have Aquilani, Lucas and Mascherano

I think it's the perfect time for Rafa to switch his formation and tactics and use the injuries as the perfect excuse. With no Torres, and more importantly no Gerrard, theres absolutely no reason for us to be playing only 1 upfront ! All the forwards we have are nowhere near clinical finishers and they'll always struggle if isolated and up against premierleague level defenders..

4-4-2 all the way for me,

Maxi          Mascherano          Aquilani           Riera

                     Kuyt               Babel

With Babel, Ngog and Pacheco as subs...
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:59 pm

aCe' wrote:starting lineup ?
No
Squad ?
Yes

We still have Riera, Maxi and (Babel) as wide players available for games,
We have Kuyt, Ngog and (Babel) as Forwards
Down the middle we have Aquilani, Lucas and Mascherano

I think it's the perfect time for Rafa to switch his formation and tactics and use the injuries as the perfect excuse. With no Torres, and more importantly no Gerrard, theres absolutely no reason for us to be playing only 1 upfront ! All the forwards we have are nowhere near clinical finishers and they'll always struggle if isolated and up against premierleague level defenders..

4-4-2 all the way for me,

Maxi          Mascherano          Aquilani           Riera

                     Kuyt               Babel

With Babel, Ngog and Pacheco as subs...

But why would you include Kuyt or Babel instead of Pacheco?

Kuyt's having one of his worst spells at the club and Babel is Babel.

As someone who bemoans Kuyt's lack of talent and Rafa's persistent use of him (not saying you're wrong on that count), surely Pacheco - a bit of a trickster who can produce something out of nothing, a player who possesses real goal threat and that 'dribbling' skill you've been so eager to see - surely he would be the better option to start with?
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Postby stmichael » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:09 pm

depends entirely on the formation we play to be honest.

in terms of talent i say why not? it's not as if we can get any worse at the moment.
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