Are we above our station - Where lie's the weaknesses

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby LegBarnes » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:57 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:The Chelsea result was down to the fact that we're concentrating on the league, and Chelsea played above themselves.

Let's not forget that we've beaten them twice this season. And Man Utd.

Do you think that latter fact perhaps made the players a bit complacent?

No.

The fact that we scored so early probably did, though.

Lando do you really think our wide players are as good as the chavs ?

Imo cole is better there RB is better from what I seen and I think there wingers are better.

I think its mainly just down to there natrual pace and directness.

But as bolten match showed that can be a weakness as well.
Last edited by LegBarnes on Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GYBS » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:05 am

Chelsea wide players better than ours ?!? Kalou and Malouda ? both not as good as Reira or Kuyt or Yossi (who may not be top drawer themselves). Their full backs maybe a bit more attacking but their wide players certainly arent better . Maybe if you add Joe Cole to the mix then he is better but the other options they have arent .

And will agree this is very knee jerk after a poor performance .
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Postby aCe' » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:46 am

GYBS wrote:Chelsea wide players better than ours ?!? Kalou and Malouda ? both not as good as Reira or Kuyt or Yossi (who may not be top drawer themselves). Their full backs maybe a bit more attacking but their wide players certainly arent better . Maybe if you add Joe Cole to the mix then he is better but the other options they have arent .

And will agree this is very knee jerk after a poor performance .

mmm... fullbacks are wide players too , surely ?!

id take Bosingwa, A.Cole, J.Cole and Quaresma/Kalou/Malouda over what we got any day of the week... the only wide player we have who comes anywhere near is probably Riera on a good day.. but yea... they have better wide players no question about it as far as im concerned...
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Postby GYBS » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:38 am

well we will have to agree to disagree . Quaresma /kalou/malouda have done what exactly consistently over the years in the prem ? nothing
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Postby aCe' » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:42 am

Depends on how you define 'nothing' really but anyways...
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Postby tubby » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:44 am

Collectivley they are still a side challanging for 3 tropheys this season so they should be written off like that.
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Postby GYBS » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:45 am

aCe' wrote:Depends on how you define 'nothing' really but anyways...

well how many times have those three consistently performed to any high level in the prem ?
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Postby Judge » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:58 am

aCe' wrote:
we all dream... wrote:I was talking about this with my mate in the pub last night... Are we a very good side or are we a good side who had, untill Wednesday, been playing very well? Of course we are a good side, but how good?

So, we need to find out what our base level is, we could say our average performance level. To do this we could do with using more than a couple of matches as a guide and we should defintely ensure these matches are against the best teams in the country. I don't know where we could find one of these lists but I'd say we would come about second, probably just in front of Chelsea and just behind Man United.  :D

Seriously though we are clearly a very good side. Recently, i.e. before Wednesday, we had been playing , IMO, above our base level. We have been performing close to our full potential if not to it recently, playing some cracking football. We all know that for every game you play above average you have to play a game below average and this is what happened againt Chelsea. Nobody can play better than their average every game. If somebody knows how I'd ike to see them explain it lol

I am looking forwards to the rest of the season, we have a good shot at catching United and I am hoping we make a good go of it next week at The Bridge. It'll be a shame to end the season without a trophy but unfortunatley the odds are stcked against us.. but then again we are often better when we are the underdogs.

I am looking forwards to the summer. It will be intriguing to see what Rafa has up his sleave. I can't even work out where we need strengthening. I would like a new CB, right winger and a striker maybe some cover in midfield and at full backs.  Maybe we dont have that good a side afer all  :D We cant go chopping and changing we need a couple of quality players and maybe swap a couple of squad players. Other than that lol  we will be bang up their again next season because we are a very good side, almost the best in the, we could even be the best by the end of the season. Fingers crossed.

:buttrock

mmm... all the 'lol's ruin your post but i think i sort of agree with what you're saying there...

unless ur a 17 year old girl then i think its kinda cute and maybe you should gimme a call in a year or so... "lol" :kungfu:

dont give me that ace, you wanted a call from her 2 year AGO, not in 1 year time :D
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Postby heimdall » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:04 pm

GYBS wrote:
aCe' wrote:Depends on how you define 'nothing' really but anyways...

well how many times have those three consistently performed to any high level in the prem ?

That's a fair point but I'd still rather take chelsea's wide players over ours with the possible exception of Malouda although he is a much better player than he has been showing in the prem.

having said I'd love for them to prove me wrong tonight  :D
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Postby GYBS » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:21 pm

Yes would agree before Maloudo arrived at Chelsea he was very good and i wanted him at liverpool but sicne he has arrived he has been poor - Kalou has done hardly anything in the 3 years he has been at chelsea - Quasimodo did nothing for inter when he went there has done nothing for Chelsea since going there and even when he played against us for porto was largly annoymous . Only one who would be worth taking from Chelsea is Cole but the lad is totally fecked these days with injuries.And it wouldnt surprise me to see that i reckon Kuyt on his own has scored more this season than all of the chelsea wide boys put together
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Postby Sir Roger » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:54 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
john craig wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:If the mancs are so far ahead of us in terms of strength and depth then why are we just two points behind?

Man for man, United are far better than us... on paper.  As a team though there's not much in it.

Why?  In my opinion we have a manager who's tactically better and gets more out of his squad than Ferguson does.  He has perhaps the best two central defenders in the league, the best left back, the best winger and three of the best strikers, along with more strength in depth than perhaps any team around.  Yet how did we manage to beat them twice and be on their coat-tails in the league?  Our manager has to take some credit.

I must stress that Ferguson is a fantastic manager and the best at building a team in the business, but perhaps tactically not the best around.  United should be further ahead of us than they are if you go on the man-for-man analysis of the squads.

As someone said:
"we dont play on paper we play on grass"
A great team with great spirit will always beat a team of great individuals. We have shown this over the last five or so (forget the last one) games.
Rafa should take credit for this and still being in with a chance of the prem and the CL
However, he must also take the criticism for some of the decisions hes made through the season which might cost us winning both or either of the trophies.

Anyway.
Im off to watch us give big sam a thrashing...
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Did you just quote Andy Grey people have been killed for less.

Andy Gray?
:no

Clough maybe?
Paisley?

Never that bluenose tw@t!
The only memorable thing hes ever said was "game set and match" when we were 3-0 down in Istanbul...
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Postby Owzat » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:40 pm

Do we expect too much?

Perhaps, but then we're an established top four side with some quality players and have shown capable of beating all the 'big four' in the past season or two. Perhaps we're not quite good enough to dominate games at will, but getting outclassed doesn't happen very often and I don't think that was anything more than them playing well when we didn't play well at all.

We can struggle to break sides down, you expect that against the better sides but we can struggle in almost any game. We are top scorers in the Premiership, but go in spells and are short of scoring goals consistently enough to reduce those draws that plague us

Premiership Goals 08/09

Games 01-08 : 13
Games 09-16 : 11
Games 17-24 : 15
Games 25-32 : 20

Bit of a scoring spurt of late, five more goals than in any other eight game split. In those same eight games last season (as just played) we scored 12 goals and next season we might not even manage 12. I wouldn't read too much into that scoring spree, the problem isn't when we do score lots of goals but when we don't.

Where is our weakness re winning the league, I think it is in the make-up of midfield. Alonso, Mascherano and Riera simply don't weigh in with enough goals and assists, wonderful as most on here think they are. Agger scored at the weekend, but our defence don't weigh in with many goals which puts a lot of pressure on Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt to score goals.

Premiership Goals

Gerrard, Torres & Kuyt  : 32/59 = 54.24%
Alonso, Riera & Mascherano : 6/59 = 10.17%
Defenders : 6/59 = 10.17%

Our top scorers in the Premiership are :-

13 Gerrard
11 Torres
8 Kuyt
5 Keane
4 Benayoun
3 Alonso, Riera
2 N'Gog, Aurelio, Babel, own goals
1 Agger, Arbeloa, Hyypia, Dossena

I'm not sure there is any magic "fix" to the situation, short of signing someone who fits in the system who is a superb scorer of goals and sets them up too. There is a nagging doubt that Torres may not fire if we change the system to play 4-4-2, and at who's expense would that be? Alonso or Mascherano? Play Gerrard left or right and hope he doesn't score less or become less influential. Rafa has identified a system that he prefers and that utilises the players available quite effectively, picking out areas to improve like RM, RB etc might sound simple, but who is to say the new RB, LB, LM, RM etc is going to work out any better than the current incumbents or previous players tried in those positions (unsuccessfully)

Maybe instead of focusing on changes of players and formation, we could work a bit harder on tactical approaches that might help unlock defences when we need it. I have serious doubts about Rafa's ability to change the game when it's not working out, he leaves it as late as when things are going ok and what he brings on often doesn't make an impact. Maybe that's why he leaves substitutions so late, fearing that whoever he brings on will be less effective than the players who started so hopes they score before he has to do something. So in that respect maybe it isn't the starting XI but the rest of the squad, those that come on from the bench and those that come in as injury cover.

Of course we could always improve defensively and in other areas, those two Ivanovic goals have put us in a difficult position in the CL. We can't improve much defensively, and it hasn't been that costly. Our lack of scoring goals has been costly, we've scored one or less in nearly half our Premiership games and nine of those were draws.

0-1 goals : P15 W4 D9 L2 F9 A8 PTS 21 (Clean Sheets = 9)
2+ goals : P17 W16 D1 L0 F50 A13 PTS 50 (Clean Sheets = 8)

I think our recent run shows what happens when we're a bit more positive, and that's why I'm not against the idea of selling Mascherano and using the funds to buy a more attacking midfielder (or all rounder) We didn't need Mascherano against Blackburn, he may provide cover for the defence in tight matches but how many of those do we play a year? And when it might have made a difference he was suspended, sent off at old trafford last year and generally we don't seem to concede any more goals when he's in the side than when he's not (0.77 against with, 0.83 against without)
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Postby yolz » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:43 am

You can bring in the best players but it's the team that plays as a collective unit that wins
Player for player, look at Real Madrid, every year, they spend astonishing amounts of money to bring in the best players, yet look what we did to them!
The team that gels as a unit is better than 11 individual world class players unable to gel
In Man U Sucks case, their players have basically been playing together for years, that's why they're always up there
We're on a fine vein of form these days, and I pray that it translates to a League trophy(FINALLY)
Come summer, I hope Rafa spends more time coming up with players and ways to stabilise our team and make them a more cohesive unit
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Postby KennyisGod....still » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:40 am

i think 'above our station' is maybe a little harsh. you look at this yrs PL and 2 teams spring to mind as exacly that - Hull and Villa. The former (as far as they're concerned) will have done enuf early doors to stay in the division, but have been found out as a relatively poor side that needs investment and time. the latter have done well to get where they are today, but have struggled to live with the goonies since their players returned from injury and picked up some form. We've had some bliiiips this season, but still remain one of the teams no-one relishes playin. No-one wants to come to Anfield currently, and we're scorin for fun with basically one out an out striker. We could do better, coupla players in in the summer would hopefully help that, but i feel that we're doin more or less what we could expect with what we have. in honesty, i'd be lookin at (and i hate bringin the subject of cold hard cash up) the like of manure and the chavs as not reachin their sposed heights bearin mind the array of talent bought into both teams. for me the team thats really 'above their station' would be arsenal, with basically one major expensive signin and some very very shrewd ones. they get their players fit, firin and ready to go they could be a great team to watch next season.
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Postby akumaface » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:56 am

I was glad that Malouda didn't come to us as he certainly is a money grabbing person who could care less about winning as long as he collects his paycheque. He doesn't have the heart to compete and he is certainly no Liverpool player. I think Riera is a much more practical winger than Malouda. As for Kalou, he just doesn't play consistently enough. Kuyt had done pretty well this season. He gave you all his got regardless if it is a good or bad day for him. He also scored some very important goals for us. So, on paper, the Chelsea players may have a bigger name but they don't have the heart. Joe Cole if healthy is better than our winger but he has been injury prone this last couple of years.
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