Liverpool FC Forum

[kalos]

JoeTerp said "I suggest you publish your findings, you'll probably become world famous for debunking the theory of evolution by natural selection. "

Thanks for the suggestion but I'm afraid I've been beaten to it by a lot of guys.

"Darwins Black Box" by Michael Behe is a must read to get an insight into the workings of life at the molecular level and why the systems found there are what he calls "irreduceably complex" ie they only work when the whole system is in place and individual parts confer no evolutionary advantage so they can't have come about by evolution as it is understood today.

Evolution- A Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton is also worth a look.

One of the most telling quotes:

“The raising of the status of Darwinian theory to a self-evident axiom has had the consequence that the very real problems and objections with which Darwin so painfully laboured in the Origin have become entirely invisible.

Crucial problems such as the absence of connecting links or the difficulty of envisaging intermediate forms are virtually never discussed and the creation of even the most complex of adaptations is put down to natural selection without a ripple of doubt.”
  He continues: “The overriding supremacy of the myth has created a widespread illusion that the theory of evolution was all but proved one hundred years ago . . . Nothing could be further from the truth.”—Page 77.


If you read the books you may change your stance somewhat. At worst you'll understand where guys like me are coming from a tad better.

SouthCoast Shanks believes in the creator of the mechanics of the universe.

I agree with that but the said mechanics in my opionion do not include current evolutionary theory
as there is only flimsy evidence for any part of it at the very best.

Like Denton says many today think Darwin put the whole thing to bed; "nothing could be further from the truth"

[kalos]

A candid evolutionist:-

Robert Naeye, a writer for Astronomy magazine and an evolutionist, wrote that life on earth is the result of “a long sequence of improbable events [that] transpired in just the right way to bring forth our existence, as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row.”

Anyone expect any rational person to believe that...?

[metalhead]

Of the religious people, how many would actually listen to the reasons and question the reasoning as to why god doesnt exist? I would say a good percentage tend to plug their ears yelling "la la la". A belief is a relief of life for people who want simplified answers to life. Many people when they have suffered a grievance tend to look towards religion. Not to convert but to try to find some consolation, to give hope.

Putting a believer and a non believer in one table of debate, we will have an endless discussion.. im afraid

[metalhead]

All those not in agreement please explain how the elements that make up the Universe got here.

Then explain and demonstrate conclusively how these non living elements became living.

After reading the last few pages, besides the bit about "one day" actually could be millions of years, an argument I find interesting, most of this is a weak argument going around and around in a circle.

Additionally it is helpful to say that the chronological appearance of living creatures according to the account in Genesis matches the fossil record almost exactly.

Which does provides ammunition for both sides of the arguement. Regardless of how you take the account of Genesis the fossil record backs up the account of Genesis in terms of the order of  appearance of life.

There are clearly three lines of thought -

1. Creation
2. Evolution
3. God driven Evolution, I.e. the creator of the mechanics of the universe

I side with option 3.

Ditto, wasn't it Des Cartes who proposed this in one of his books (forgot the name of the book)?

[JoeTerp]

seriously?  Behe ?  he has been debunked several times over

[SupitsJonF]

A candid evolutionist:-

Robert Naeye, a writer for Astronomy magazine and an evolutionist, wrote that life on earth is the result of “a long sequence of improbable events [that] transpired in just the right way to bring forth our existence, as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row.”

Anyone expect any rational person to believe that...?

But, it actually IS possible.  1 in a couple million billions shot, but none the less can happen.  That idea seems far out to you, same way as the idea of a creator seems far out to other people.

[Big Niall]

Just out of interest - do the people who believe in God here, believe that he sent his son to earth via a pregnant virgin (even though married)?

While I admit it is possible there is a god, I think it close to impossible that christianity/islam/hindus or any of them are any where near the ballpark of being true in even their core message.

Also - do any of the god believers think that there may be more than one god - like the ancient religions and hinduism believe?

[dawson99]

Just out of interest - do the people who believe in God here, believe that he sent his son to earth via a pregnant virgin (even though married)?

While I admit it is possible there is a god, I think it close to impossible that christianity/islam/hindus or any of them are any where near the ballpark of being true in even their core message.

Also - do any of the god believers think that there may be more than one god - like the ancient religions and hinduism believe?

I thinkw e all have different beliefs...

Some of us believe a more closely tied version to the bible.
Some believe that there is just something more, which is possibly more spiritual than religious
Some people believe something completely no doubt.
Every single person will have a different interpretation of there religous/spiritual beliefs, and that's a good thing.

I guess us 'mad people' just think theres more to it than just this. We don't think this is the be all and end all and we know we ain't at the centre of anything, this is just the first step on whatever journey it is we think happens (re-incarnation, heaven, same life again and again til its done right)

That's what I think anyways

[account deleted by request]

Just out of interest - do the people who believe in God here, believe that he sent his son to earth via a pregnant virgin (even though married)?

While I admit it is possible there is a god, I think it close to impossible that christianity/islam/hindus or any of them are any where near the ballpark of being true in even their core message.

Also - do any of the god believers think that there may be more than one god - like the ancient religions and hinduism believe?

I thinkw e all have different beliefs...

Bit like Rafa then mate   


I thought this thread needed a touch more controversy

[andy_g]

another thing that the intelligent design supporters rarely recognise is that their designer wasn't a particularly good, or consistent designer in many ways. if the designer had the incredible talent to build amazingly complex bacterial cells, why did he give us human's a spinal column? probably about the worst solution for supporting the weight and stresses of a large biped. why did he design whales to have the floating remains of pelvic bones in their bodies? why does his dna design leave it prone to mutations that result in chains of subtle changes within a species - something which looks remarkably like this dastardly evolution theory? and why do birds carry the genes for teeth, but have them switched off? why is the design of our testicles so stupidly inefficient?

[dawson99]

your testicles might be innefficient, mine are awesome

[andy_g]

ladies and gentlemen... i give you... the MISSING LINK!!!

[Big Niall]

Just out of interest - do the people who believe in God here, believe that he sent his son to earth via a pregnant virgin (even though married)?

While I admit it is possible there is a god, I think it close to impossible that christianity/islam/hindus or any of them are any where near the ballpark of being true in even their core message.

Also - do any of the god believers think that there may be more than one god - like the ancient religions and hinduism believe?

I thinkw e all have different beliefs...

Some of us believe a more closely tied version to the bible.
Some believe that there is just something more, which is possibly more spiritual than religious
Some people believe something completely no doubt.
Every single person will have a different interpretation of there religous/spiritual beliefs, and that's a good thing.

I guess us 'mad people' just think theres more to it than just this. We don't think this is the be all and end all and we know we ain't at the centre of anything, this is just the first step on whatever journey it is we think happens (re-incarnation, heaven, same life again and again til its done right)

That's what I think anyways

There might be a being.

However, I was just wondering how many people here believe the core story of christianity i.e. Jesus. Maybe you are spiritiual but not christian?

Also, I am surprised at how few western people contemplate that there might be lots of "gods" like the ancient religions or hinduism. If I said I believed there was one god for good weather and another god for love etc, people would call me a nutter.

[Judge]

why is the design of our testicles so stupidly inefficient?

...the arteries that supply blood to the scrotum are positioned adjacent to the veins taking blood away from the scrotum and function as an additional cooling/heating exchange mechanism. As a consequence of these adaptations average scrotal temperatures in humans are typically 2.5 to 3 degrees Celsius lower than body temperature (37 degrees Celsius), and spermatogenesis is most efficient at 34 degrees Celsius.

extract from Dr J Berring

[andy_g]

that's correct dr j berring. but the testicles are formed inside the body then move to the outside leaving a weak spot in the muscle wall which is liable to hernia. the exterior testicle also places higher demand on the muscle and blood systems. why didn't the designer design sperm that worked at body temperature and leave the testicles inside, saving wear and tear on the body whilst freeing the male of the species from the nightmare of testicle thwack?