Liverpool FC Forum

[heimdall]

You can believe in Zeus if you want. I don't care about your personal beliefs. I do know that relligion has always been used for military purposes though.

Really, in what way have any wars in the last 150 odd years been about religion?

[heimdall]

Barely over a century ago, people believed the world was a few thousand years old, now we know life has been here for millions of years via fossils.

We are slowly putting together the history of the planet and the universe. Just like science proved the earth rotates around the sun, it will correct other false beliefs and fill in missing wholes.

I'll be dead by the time much of this evidence is found.

People used to think epileptic fits were the work of the devil as they had no explanation, why else would a person act "nuts" what posessed their body to move in such a bizzare unnatural way? now we know.

And will someone figure out what existed before the big bang, and what was before that and before that into infinity?

I think that if you look at the incredible complexity of the universe, the infinite checks and balances, then you have to come to the conclusion that some kind of design was involved, it can't all be coincidence and random.

I will agree with you that religion has been used to manipulate people up though the ages and still is in the muslim world, and to a lesser extent even in the west, but having faith gives a lot of people strength and that cannot be a bad thing.

[andy_g]

Tyring to complicate a very simple thing called EXPERIENCE IN LIFE should not be negated by some boffin in a white coat saying blah blah chance /primordial soup/ big bang

Now apply what your eyes and ears tell you about the Universe , the infinitely high degree of order thew fine tuning of the physical forces that make life possible and ask yourself how this could possibly be an accident of chance - what  does reason /logic tell you ??

Like I said I'm asking you to use your mind - boffins who spout out a load of hypotheticals with no proof or experiments to prove it are the ones who presume you have a tiny mind so you'll swallow thier cr-p hook line and sinker.

i'm actually wondering to myself how a creationist can have the nerve to use words like reason and logic, and i know how utterly pointless it is to make any real effort to argue the point with them. they just put their fingers in their ears and do that 'la la la... i'm not listening' thing.

but just for the hell of it here's two more innaccurate assumptions made by creationists.
1) that scientists are boffins in white coats that just dream up hypotheses
2) that the universe is in a state of order

many modern theories of life state that given the right combination of conditions life is more or less inevitable. in our own solar system - *as far as we know* - those conditions have only happened on earth, even though other bodies have not been rules out.

[made in UK]

Barely over a century ago, people believed the world was a few thousand years old, now we know life has been here for millions of years via fossils.

We are slowly putting together the history of the planet and the universe. Just like science proved the earth rotates around the sun, it will correct other false beliefs and fill in missing wholes.

I'll be dead by the time much of this evidence is found.

People used to think epileptic fits were the work of the devil as they had no explanation, why else would a person act "nuts" what posessed their body to move in such a bizzare unnatural way? now we know.

And will someone figure out what existed before the big bang, and what was before that and before that into infinity?

I think that if you look at the incredible complexity of the universe, the infinite checks and balances, then you have to come to the conclusion that some kind of design was involved, it can't all be coincidence and random.

I will agree with you that religion has been used to manipulate people up though the ages and still is in the muslim world, and to a lesser extent even in the west, but having faith gives a lot of people strength and that cannot be a bad thing.

Hey Heimy, if you believe there is a creator and what not. Why doon't you have more faith in the team? 

[Big Niall]

Barely over a century ago, people believed the world was a few thousand years old, now we know life has been here for millions of years via fossils.

We are slowly putting together the history of the planet and the universe. Just like science proved the earth rotates around the sun, it will correct other false beliefs and fill in missing wholes.

I'll be dead by the time much of this evidence is found.

People used to think epileptic fits were the work of the devil as they had no explanation, why else would a person act "nuts" what posessed their body to move in such a bizzare unnatural way? now we know.

And will someone figure out what existed before the big bang, and what was before that and before that into infinity?

I think that if you look at the incredible complexity of the universe, the infinite checks and balances, then you have to come to the conclusion that some kind of design was involved, it can't all be coincidence and random.

I will agree with you that religion has been used to manipulate people up though the ages and still is in the muslim world, and to a lesser extent even in the west, but having faith gives a lot of people strength and that cannot be a bad thing.

I am aware that people get strength from believing in god but if we all knew that god was false, would you tell the person?

Just because somebody bellieves in something that gives them strength doesn't make it true.

[Big Niall]

You can believe in Zeus if you want. I don't care about your personal beliefs. I do know that relligion has always been used for military purposes though.

Really, in what way have any wars in the last 150 odd years been about religion?

Why the limit on 150 years? mainland europe killed many people for being protestant or catholic not to mention the crusades.

Northern Ireland shows how two almost identical religions can be turned on each other, look at the balkins, christians vs russian orthodox vs muslims, then look at the killing in Iraq where shia muslims and sunni muslims kill each other.

We could go on to  discuss Somalia too, or the various killings between pakistan and India,

[Big Niall]

Barely over a century ago, people believed the world was a few thousand years old, now we know life has been here for millions of years via fossils.

We are slowly putting together the history of the planet and the universe. Just like science proved the earth rotates around the sun, it will correct other false beliefs and fill in missing wholes.

I'll be dead by the time much of this evidence is found.

People used to think epileptic fits were the work of the devil as they had no explanation, why else would a person act "nuts" what posessed their body to move in such a bizzare unnatural way? now we know.

And will someone figure out what existed before the big bang, and what was before that and before that into infinity?

I think that if you look at the incredible complexity of the universe, the infinite checks and balances, then you have to come to the conclusion that some kind of design was involved, it can't all be coincidence and random.

I will agree with you that religion has been used to manipulate people up though the ages and still is in the muslim world, and to a lesser extent even in the west, but having faith gives a lot of people strength and that cannot be a bad thing.

If you ever read writings by atheists like Richard Dawkins, they NEVER claim coincidence, there is a logic behind the process.

Read up on it, and if you stilll have an argument against it then fair enough - that is your right, but the ignorance of claiming co-incidence is the atheist position is just a lack of knowledge on your part.

[LFC2007]

It is impossible to prove God exists - unless he pops down to say hello.

How would you know he's not an impostor?

[account deleted by request]

It is impossible to prove God exists - unless he pops down to say hello.

How would you know he's not an impostor?

He's big, fat, got a beard and works miracles....... its got to be either God or Father Christmas. Red suit and a sack its Father Christmas !   


O.K. it could be Rafa I suppose 

[Espionage]

Why atheism is the the only logical choice

A talk by Richard Dawkins, pretty interesting stuff from TED. If you are not familiar with TED, it is a forum where people meet every year to discuss ideas worth spreading (so lots of interesting people giving interesting talks on a variety of topics).

[JoeTerp]

ted talks 

although sometimes they can lean a bit statist for my taste, but some of them are really eye-opening.

[JoeTerp]

And will someone figure out what existed before the big bang, and what was before that and before that into infinity?

I think that if you look at the incredible complexity of the universe, the infinite checks and balances, then you have to come to the conclusion that some kind of design was involved, it can't all be coincidence and random.

what is north of the north pole?     that is the same sort of question as "what came before the beginning of the universe?"


what are your reasons for coming to the conclusion "there must have been some sort of design involved" ?


EVEN IF, people were to concede a Deistic argument (which I would most certainly not), there is still a M A S S I V E  J U M P to get to anything that resembles anything that would justify any of the religions on earth today.  That is the REAL problem.  That is where you run into the idea of Sam Harris  and Hitchens  that Religion is a plague on the world, and even moderates are a problem because they make the world safe for taking things on faith.

[kalos]

andyg

Where did I assume that ALL  scientists are boffins in white coats that just dream up hypotheses.

I restricted it to those who put forward hypotheses (yes hypotheses ) on how life originated - their hypotheses alwasy jump the incredible chasm that exists between living and non living . Have you seen any evolutionary scientist produce life form non living matter??


2) that the universe is in a state of order

So is the below what you call a state of order or not ??

A slight difference in the electromagnetic force would affect the sun and thus alter the light reaching the earth, making photosynthesis in plants difficult or impossible. It could also rob water of its unique properties, which are vital for life. So again, the precise tuning of the electromagnetic force determines whether we live or not.
Equally vital is the intensity of the electromagnetic force in relation to the other three. For example, some physicists figure this force to be 10,000,- 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1040) times that of gravity. It might seem a small change to that number to add one more zero (1041). Yet that would mean that gravity is proportionally weaker, and Dr. Reinhard Breuer comments on the resulting situation: “With lower gravity the stars would be smaller, and the pressure of gravity in their interiors would not drive the temperature high enough for nuclear fusion reactions to get under way: the sun would be unable to shine.” You can imagine what that would mean for us!
What if gravity were stronger proportionately, so that the number had only 39 zeros (1039)? “With just this tiny adjustment,” continues Breuer, “a star like the sun would find its life expectancy sharply reduced.” And other scientists consider the fine-tuning to be even more precise.
Indeed, two remarkable qualities of our sun and other stars are long-term efficiency and stability. Consider a simple illustration. We know that to run efficiently, an automobile engine needs a critical ratio between fuel and air; engineers design complex mechanical and computer systems to optimize performance. If that is so with a mere engine, what of the efficiently “burning” stars such as our sun? The key forces involved are precisely tuned, optimized for life. Did that precision just happen?

The Two Nuclear Forces
The structure of the universe involves much more than fine-tuning just gravity and the electromagnetic force. Two other physical forces also relate to our life.
These two forces operate in the nucleus of an atom, and they give ample evidence of forethought. Consider the strong nuclear force, which glues protons and neutrons together in the nucleus of the atom. Because of this bonding, various elements can form—light ones (such as helium and oxygen) and heavy ones (such as gold and lead). It seems that if this binding force were a mere 2-percent weaker, only hydrogen would exist. Conversely, if this force were slightly stronger, only heavier elements, but no hydrogen, could be found. Would our lives be affected? Well, if the universe lacked hydrogen, our sun would not have the fuel it needs to radiate life-giving energy. And, of course, we would have no water or food, since hydrogen is an essential ingredient of both.
The fourth force in this discussion, called the weak nuclear force, controls radioactive decay. It also affects thermonuclear activity in our sun. ‘Is this force fine-tuned?’ you might ask. Mathematician and physicist Freeman Dyson explains: “The weak [force] is millions of times weaker than the nuclear force. It is just weak enough so that the hydrogen in the sun burns at a slow and steady rate. If the weak [force] were much stronger or much weaker, any forms of life dependent on sunlike stars would again be in difficulties.” Yes, this precise rate of burning keeps our earth warm—but not incinerated—and keeps us alive.
Furthermore, scientists believe that the weak force plays a role in supernova explosions, which they give as the mechanism for producing and distributing most elements. “If those nuclear forces were in any way slightly different from the way they actually are, the stars would be incapable of making the elements of which you and I are composed,” explains physicist John Polkinghorne.
More could be said, but you likely understand the point. There is an amazing degree of fine-tuning in these four fundamental forces. “All around us, we seem to see evidence that nature got it just right,” wrote Professor Paul Davies. Yes, the precise tuning of the fundamental forces has made possible the existence and operation of our sun, our with its life-sustaining water, our atmosphere so vital for life, and a vast array of precious chemical elements on earth.


ALSO :

Professor of Mathematics Roger Penrose discovered when he studied the state of disorderliness (or, entropy) of the observable universe. A logical way to interpret such findings is to conclude that the universe started off in an ordered state and is still highly organized. Astrophysicist Alan Lightman noted that scientists “find it mysterious that the universe was created in such a highly ordered condition.” He added that “any successful theory of cosmology should ultimately explain this entropy problem”—why the universe has not become chaotic.

[JoeTerp]

have your pick:

door #1



door #2

[andy_g]

thanks joe, that saved me a hell of a lot of typing