Liverpool FC Forum

Cant's see a thread on here regarding the big debate that's being had started by Jack Wilshere stating he didnt think Januzaj should be eligible for England.

I actually agree with him personally 100%, I think it's embarrassing that we are even trying to approach the lad if it's true.

I know Pieterson has kicked off on twitter to him being a foreigner that's obviously represented England for some time. I dont't know too much about the cricketers and how they have become eligible. Is it just through residency after a number of years or do they have relatives that are British ?

For me if they have just moved to the country to work or play sport then they are  not English or British.
I think it's different if you get someone like Fabrice Muamba as an example. Someone who as a child has moved to the country but has been raised and educated here. That for me is just about ok.
I'm not having it though that we can just say to someone like Arteta (who it was mooted in the past) now you have lived here over 5 years you can play for England. That for me is nonsense and makes even more of a farce out of international football.

Has that Diego Costa now stated that he wants to play for Spain ? But he has already played for Brazil ?  That's ridiculous if he has and he should be told to feck off.

Anyway what's everyone else's thoughts on it all ? Not just the footy i suppose, also the other sports ?

Jack Wilshere enters the Januzaj debate: 'Keep England for the English'• Wilshere believes naturalised players should not be allowed
• 'If I went to Spain for five years, I'm not going to play for Spain'
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Email Dominic Fifield The Guardian, Tuesday 8 October 2013 23.00 BST 
'For me an English player should play for England,' says the Arsenal midfielder Jack Wilshere. Photograph: Paul Ellis/AFP/Getty Images
Jack Wilshere has called into question the Football Association's desire to gain Adnan Januzaj's international allegiance and insisted becoming naturalised after living in England for a period of time "does not make you English".

The Manchester United manager David Moyes revealed in the wake of Januzaj's eye-catching two goals in victory at Sunderland that the FA had previously been in contact with the club to establish whether the 18-year-old could play for England. The teenager was born in Brussels to Kosovan-Albanian parents and is therefore eligible to represent Belgium, Albania, Turkey, Serbia and Kosovo, who have yet to be recognised by Fifa.

Belgium sought to secure his allegiance earlier this week only for Januzaj to reject the chance of a senior call-up for the World Cup qualifiers against Croatia and Wales this month, claiming the offer had come too early in his career. The national coach Marc Wilmots will make further attempts to persuade the teenager to link up with his squad, though the England manager Roy Hodgson, preparing for his own qualifiers against Montenegro and Poland, had indicated on Saturday that he has noted the forward's recent progress.

According to Fifa statutes a player is eligible to play for a country if he has "lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 in the territory of the relevant association", meaning Januzaj would have to wait until 2018, when he is 23, to be able to represent England. "No, for me, if you are English, you are English, and you play for England," said Wilshere, who is hoping to gain an 11th cap against Montenegro on Friday. "The only people who should play for England are English people.

"If you've lived in England for five years, for me, it doesn't make you English. You shouldn't play. It doesn't mean you can play for that country. If I went to Spain and lived there for five years, I'm not going to play for Spain. For me an English player should play for England really." Asked whether the same criteria should apply to managers of the national side, the midfielder added: "I think it's better if there is an Englishman [in charge], but don't get me wrong, Fabio Capello did a lot for my England career. He brought me here, gave me my debut and stuck with me form a young age, so he was a good manager as well."

Januzaj's sudden rise to prominence has highlighted the issue of naturalisation at a time when the lack of young English players making a mark in Premier League first-teams has already provoked the new FA chairman, Greg Dyke, to call for radical action to keep the England team competitive.

The recently appointed Under-21s manager, Gareth Southgate, pointed to two-thirds of his current squad having played for a senior side, whether in the Premier League or Football League, last weekend as reason for encouragement and was more philosophical on the Januzaj issue.

"It's a difficult one," he said. "He's not played for anyone else, so it's slightly different to some of our [England] cricketers. We seem to have embraced the England cricket team that have won the Ashes, and as far as I'm aware the majority of them have come in because they are good players, all for slightly different reasons perhaps. Historically we would have viewed it in a certain way, but the world is evolving. We have lots of boys in our squad who weren't born here but whose families have fled here, and they're all incredibly proud to play for England.

"The world is changing, families are moving more and more, and working abroad. It's important to know why somebody would want to play for you, and had he played for somebody else that would be more of an issue for me. But if you've not played for anybody then it's a greyer area in my view."

it is a definite grey area, i can see both sides of the argument, there have been plenty of famous brits born outside the country (cliff richard, joe strummer, george orwell, vivien leigh, nigel hawthorn, joanna lumley, spike milligan, alan whicker, emma watson, dom jolly, eddie izzard, boris johnson, jrr tolkien......even the quinissential `bloodied headband` england captain, terry butcher) so where your born doesnt neccessarily determine your nationality but on the other hand no one wants to see international football descend into a kind of `flag of convenience` free for all.

incidently i`d normally be p1$$ed off about another international break so soon after the last one turning the season into a stop start affair but it does give us a chance to get coutinho and johnson closer to fitness.
i`m not sure how close they are to returning but we could do with them being back before we play arsenal and everton next month.

I agree with Ben. If a person was born in a certain country or moved there at a young age, and he lived in that certain country for most of his life and received most of his education there, then it would be OK for that person to be able to represent the country, even though his parents only moved there because of, for example, work. But moving at the country at an older age and living and/or working there for 5 years isn't nearly enough for a person to have the right of representing the country at anything, not just sports.

Anyway, I thought Januzaj refused to play for Belgium because he wanted to play for Albania?

I don't think 'we' Brit's, or English as the case maybe can have it both ways - Mo Farah? He's done wonders for British sports and so to have many diaspora down the years, John Barnes another one.

I'm eligible to be an Australian citizen soon even though I'm English. If I ever had the opportunity to represent a country in anything, ideally I'd represent my homeland (England). However, if my new found host home gave me the opportunity to represent them, I would be honoured first and foremost and it would certainly tempt me to help my new home out.

Put yourself in the diaspora's shoes, you come from Somalia for example but have migrated to Britain where you are offered to represent that nation on a world stage, what would you do?

Also, in this day and age of globalism and 'multiculturalism' sport IMO is THE only genuine fabric that can tie diverse people together, such as a Brit and a Somalian. The joy I had from watching Farah wasn't deterred in the slightest, knowing he was of Somalian origin. Sport breaks down social barriers better than any enforced policy does (I know I'm veering off onto sociology) and I think it's this nature of honesty in sport that brings people together.

FWIW, I also understand Wilshire's point of view. The likes of Farah and Barnes did move here when they were young so were brought up in a society that gave them a national identity they can relate with. Perhaps, like others have said, if they are schooled in Britain or have British heritage they should be eligible - that would rule me out of playing sport at a national level with Australia then    even though I can become a citizen still. 

Kenny Kan » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:27 am wrote:I don't think 'we' Brit's, or English as the case maybe can have it both ways - Mo Farah? He's done wonders for British sports and so to have many diaspora down the years, John Barnes another one.

I'm eligible to be an Australian citizen soon even though I'm English. If I ever had the opportunity to represent a country in anything, ideally I'd represent my homeland (England). However, if my new found host home gave me the opportunity to represent them, I would be honoured first and foremost and it would certainly tempt me to help my new home out.

Put yourself in the diaspora's shoes, you come from Somalia for example but have migrated to Britain where you are offered to represent that nation on a world stage, what would you do?

Also, in this day and age of globalism and 'multiculturalism' sport IMO is THE only genuine fabric that can tie diverse people together, such as a Brit and a Somalian. The joy I had from watching Farah wasn't deterred in the slightest, knowing he was of Somalian origin. Sport breaks down social barriers better than any enforced legislation does (I know I'm veering off onto sociology) and I think it's this nature of honesty in sport that brings people together.

FWIW, I also understand Wilshire's point of view. The likes of Farah and Barnes did move here when they were young so were brought up in a society that gave them a national identity they can relate with. Perhaps, like others have said, if they are schooled in Britain or have British heritage they should be eligible - that would rule me out of playing sport at a national level with Australia then    even though I can become a citizen still. 

yup

Kenny Kan » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:27 am wrote:I don't think 'we' Brit's, or English as the case maybe can have it both ways - Mo Farah? He's done wonders for British sports and so to have many diaspora down the years, John Barnes another one.

I'm eligible to be an Australian citizen soon even though I'm English. If I ever had the opportunity to represent a country in anything, ideally I'd represent my homeland (England). However, if my new found host home gave me the opportunity to represent them, I would be honoured first and foremost and it would certainly tempt me to help my new home out.

Put yourself in the diaspora's shoes, you come from Somalia for example but have migrated to Britain where you are offered to represent that nation on a world stage, what would you do?

Also, in this day and age of globalism and 'multiculturalism' sport IMO is THE only genuine fabric that can tie diverse people together, such as a Brit and a Somalian. The joy I had from watching Farah wasn't deterred in the slightest, knowing he was of Somalian origin. Sport breaks down social barriers better than any enforced policy does (I know I'm veering off onto sociology) and I think it's this nature of honesty in sport that brings people together.

FWIW, I also understand Wilshire's point of view. The likes of Farah and Barnes did move here when they were young so were brought up in a society that gave them a national identity they can relate with. Perhaps, like others have said, if they are schooled in Britain or have British heritage they should be eligible - that would rule me out of playing sport at a national level with Australia then    even though I can become a citizen still. 

yeah good post, as you say though farrah and barnsey came here first and foremost to live, their sporting career`s were an after thought as such.
januaj (sp?) was brought here specifically because he was a very good footballer and there is a difference. if he couldnt kick a ball he wouldnt be here.
if you took it to the `nth` degree england could go around the world scouting all the best young players and then offer their families a kings ransom to live here and represent england. theoretically you could have an england side with messi and ronaldo in it.
no doubt it would be interesting to watch but it would make a mockery of the idea of international football

Kenny Kan » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:27 am wrote:I'm eligible to be an Australian citizen soon even though I'm English. If I ever had the opportunity to represent a country in anything, ideally I'd represent my homeland (England). However, if my new found host home gave me the opportunity to represent them, I would be honoured first and foremost and it would certainly tempt me to help my new home out.

Well if ***** stirring becomes an Olympic sport we will be knocking on your door first and dressing you up in the green and gold 

I can see both sides of it, the cynical side where you have for example these Oil rich gulf states spending millions to have African runners change nationality to try and grab Olympic glory.
Then you have fairytale of the refugee who strikes glory for his adopted nation.

I guess in the end its really only in the heart of the player himself who can truly tell where his loyalties truly lie

The FA have practically accused Wilshire of racism for this comment.

In my opinion this is exactly whats wrong with the country. That is in no way what so ever any sort of racist comment.

For what its worth, I completely agree with Wilshire. I think its a joke that England are looking at that lad as a possible future (even though I think he's an excellent prospect). I understand the points about Farrah and even Barnes, but there is a major difference in both of those cases which has already been mentioned.

I'm actually ashamed to be English at times because of the way this country is allowed to be run the general attitude of alot of people here.

But i know for a fact, had I played professional football (even though I have never dreamt of playing for England as a kid (it was always Liverpool) I wouldn't have played for any other national team despite my eligability.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:42 am wrote: theoretically you could have an england side with messi and ronaldo in it.
no doubt it would be interesting to watch but it would make a mockery of the idea of international football

Exactly.

Like laza said, countries will even start buying players from other countries. That's not the point of international football IMO.

Isn't it happening now tho, uefa have given the ok for costa to change allegence to Spain even though he has already played for brazil. Another point is you have to feel sorry for great players who never get the opportunity to play in the world cup just because where they were born. Rushie is a classic example

Germany have no problems playing players from Poland or even Turkish decent

Portugal have no problems playing Brazilians

France - North Africans

Republic of Ireland - English

It's been happening for years

Countries will find a way to get a player qualified to play for them. I don't really give a ***** about England but it's would be very narrow minded to rule out anyone who isn't "pure" English.

Benny, I don't know which statement you are referring to (ours or Wilshere's) but as you can see most of us have no problem with people from multiple nationalities representing a country. But there must be a strict criteria considering this question. IMO living in a certain country for 5 years isn't enough.

I personally have no problem with players from a certain nationality playing for a different country. But most of those Turkish or Polish players playing for Germany that you mentioned, haven't moved to Germany because of football. They have moved there at a young age because their parents were looking for work or they might have even been born there. So for me, it would be even more suitable for a Turkish lad who has been raised, educated and has spent most of his life in Germany to represent Germany rather than Turkey, a country which he visits during his summer vacation to visit relatives.

Cases like Arteta, Costa and now Januzaj are different. Those players had nothing to do with England (Spain) before they moved to the country to play football for a certain team. For those players to be eligible for the country they work in is just stupid. They have nothing to do with that country other than working there. For me that's not nearly enough for someone to be able to represent a country. International football just loses it's whole point like that.

Arteta never played for England - he was never asked and didn't ever want to play - most of it was just media nonsense. I don't recall ever seeing a player being picked for England purely on the basis of living in the country for 5 years - it's the same with Alumnia. Januzaj will not play for England also - he will disappear just like Macheda did.

In our country it's not a problem - if other countries want it do it ( Portugal being the worst ) then as long as it is within the rules then there isn't much that can be done. People can arrive in a country late and turn patriotic and actually represent the country with pride. As been mentioned elsewhere it happens in cricket and most don't mind, happens in rugby , happened in Tennis etc

Diego Costa is a different matter

He was called up for Brazil last year and IMO once you play for an International team you shouldn't be able to swap. If hadn't already played then I wouldn't have a problem.

And finally - International Football lost its point a long time ago

Missing my point completely... I'm saying that it shouldn't happen not what the rules allow or what can or can't be done about it. And I really don't care about the cases with Almunia and Arteta, I just mentioned them as examples, like Wilshere did with Januzaj.

But if it must happen, there must be some kind of a rule which allows a maximum of only 1 naturalized player or something, like there is with FIBA (Basketball).