Liverpool FC Forum

by **Dundalk** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:24 pm

Are they now a selling club? Wenger came out the other day and said that they have to pay back millions every year for the foreseeable future. The have just sold on of there best strikers and arguably their best centre back.

Not qualify for the Champions League will be a disaster for them and it looks in serious doubt this season with Man City creeping up on them. He seems to have no money to spend and Fabregas and the likes surely wont stay around much longer

Looking at it from a Liverpool point of view, is is worth getting a new big shiny stadium if it means 10-20 years of scrimping and saving and therefore not competing? Arsenal fans cant be that optimistic about the new season. Wenger will tell the fans that the will compete for the league but the truth about it that they are 9/1 to win the league, City are 12/1 and dropping and Arsenal are 4/9 to win nothing again this year

by **bigmick** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:31 pm

And a lot of the fans are on about getting rid of Wenger. Now I know some of our fans are fond of asking "well who else is there" when anybody criticises the manager, but you could argue that spending sh!tloads of money and not winning anything doesn't rule out that many candidates. If Arsenal got rid of Wenger though and said to the new bloke "you've got to make a profit in the transfer market (and a fecking big one at that) but still get in the top four" credible candidates wouldn't exactly be thick on the ground. Course someone would take it (feck me I'd take it if they offered it to me) but whether they'd actually manage to match what Wenger has done/is doing is another thing.

by **tubby** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:04 pm

Dundalk wrote:Are they now a selling club? Wenger came out the other day and said that they have to pay back millions every year for the foreseeable future. The have just sold on of there best strikers and arguably their best centre back.

Not qualify for the Champions League will be a disaster for them and it looks in serious doubt this season with Man City creeping up on them. He seems to have no money to spend and Fabregas and the likes surely wont stay around much longer

Looking at it from a Liverpool point of view, is is worth getting a new big shiny stadium if it means 10-20 years of scrimping and saving and therefore not competing? Arsenal fans cant be that optimistic about the new season. Wenger will tell the fans that the will compete for the league but the truth about it that they are 9/1 to win the league, City are 12/1 and dropping and Arsenal are 4/9 to win nothing again this year

They also led the table for 1/2 the season a few years ago. I wouldn't write them off that easily. We need a new staidum to bring in mre revenue. If we don't then we will always be in the red and in a bad way.

by **Reg** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:18 pm

If Wenger is selling without a murmur there must be a very good reason, can only be that the club cant afford its debts and once again... Arsenal will be the first to rectify the situation and may come out stronger compared to those gaily spending money like theres no tomorrow.

by **redbeergoggles** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:19 pm

bigmick wrote:And a lot of the fans are on about getting rid of Wenger. Now I know some of our fans are fond of asking "well who else is there" when anybody criticises the manager, but you could argue that spending sh!tloads of money and not winning anything doesn't rule out that many candidates. If Arsenal got rid of Wenger though and said to the new bloke "you've got to make a profit in the transfer market (and a fecking big one at that) but still get in the top four" credible candidates wouldn't exactly be thick on the ground. Course someone would take it (feck me I'd take it if they offered it to me) but whether they'd actually manage to match what Wenger has done/is doing is another thing.

Good post Mick , I think Wenger has defied the critics who are constantly urging him to buy ,and has adhered to his football principals and philosophy's and for that I cant help but have a grudging admiration for the man.

I think this season will be the catalyst however ,either for his young team to come out of transition and genuinely impose their undoubted talent on the premier league, or Wenger will admit defeat after another season of underachievement and walk away

I personally have a sneaking feeling Arsenal will have a lot of critics eating humble pie (just a hunch like ),Wenger has a shed load of exciting talent at his disposal non more so than the inevitable emergence of Wiltshere who looks phenomenal ,and I think seeing Rosicky and Eduardo back in the first team is a huge plus for Wenger ...

by **JC_81** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:38 pm

bavlondon wrote:They also led the table for 1/2 the season a few years ago.

I honestly don't see the relevance of that comment.

Since then they've lost Hleb, Flamini, Adebayor and Toure, while the only established names they've brought in are Arshavin and the so far untested Vermaelen.

The way Arsenal have gone about getting the new stadium is probably how we would need to approach it, unless we get massive investment from somewhere. So Dundalk's point is very valid imo - do we want to essentially drop out of contention for 15-20 years to pay for the stadium? Can we guarantee it's worth it in the long term? The bottom line is that Arsenal will not win a major trophy (by that I mean CL or Prem) as long as they have to stick to this transfer policy, there are simply too many big hitters splashing around money in England and on the continent for Arsenal to realistically compete. Arsene Wenger is a top class manager, not a magician.

by **Dundalk** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:02 pm

When you look at their first 11 at the moment there are a lot of weaknesses and not a lot of experience, never mind the lack of depth in their squad. They still have a good team and one than can compete in the League but they have not a great team or one that can challenge for the league and i have doubts this season if they will finish in the top 4. There seems to be a severe lack of leadership throughout the team, there is noone in the side who would be seen as a leader. Fabregas is their captain but he is not exactly a Carragher or Terry type.

by **tubby** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:39 pm

john craig wrote:
bavlondon wrote:They also led the table for 1/2 the season a few years ago.

I honestly don't see the relevance of that comment.

Since then they've lost Hleb, Flamini, Adebayor and Toure, while the only established names they've brought in are Arshavin and the so far untested Vermaelen.

The way Arsenal have gone about getting the new stadium is probably how we would need to approach it, unless we get massive investment from somewhere. So Dundalk's point is very valid imo - do we want to essentially drop out of contention for 15-20 years to pay for the stadium? Can we guarantee it's worth it in the long term? The bottom line is that Arsenal will not win a major trophy (by that I mean CL or Prem) as long as they have to stick to this transfer policy, there are simply too many big hitters splashing around money in England and on the continent for Arsenal to realistically compete. Arsene Wenger is a top class manager, not a magician.

They have been forced to blood youth into their team when they lost all their experienced players and to some extent that is what we should be looking to do as well. But to suggest that we should maybe not go ahead with the stadium for fear of turning into them is folly. That is the reason Hicks and Gilette bought us in the first place. There is obviously a transition period when you get a new stadium where you need to tighten the coffers but that is inevitable unless you are backed by a super rich owner.

Not to mention how much money they have still to recoup on sales of the homes/highury. It didn't help with the credit crunch either.

If you look at all the sucessfull teams they all have big stadiums that bring in a lot of revenue. We need that too.

by **JC_81** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:41 pm

bavlondon wrote:
john craig wrote:
bavlondon wrote:They also led the table for 1/2 the season a few years ago.

I honestly don't see the relevance of that comment.

Since then they've lost Hleb, Flamini, Adebayor and Toure, while the only established names they've brought in are Arshavin and the so far untested Vermaelen.

The way Arsenal have gone about getting the new stadium is probably how we would need to approach it, unless we get massive investment from somewhere. So Dundalk's point is very valid imo - do we want to essentially drop out of contention for 15-20 years to pay for the stadium? Can we guarantee it's worth it in the long term? The bottom line is that Arsenal will not win a major trophy (by that I mean CL or Prem) as long as they have to stick to this transfer policy, there are simply too many big hitters splashing around money in England and on the continent for Arsenal to realistically compete. Arsene Wenger is a top class manager, not a magician.

They have been forced to blood youth into their team when they lost all their experienced players and to some extent that is what we should be looking to do as well. But to suggest that we should maybe not go ahead with the stadium for fear of turning into them is folly. That is the reason Hicks and Gilette bought us in the first place. There is obviously a transition period when you get a new stadium where you need to tighten the coffers but that is inevitable unless you are backed by a super rich owner.

Not to mention how much money they have still to recoup on sales of the homes/highury. It didn't help with the credit crunch either.

If you look at all the sucessfull teams they all have big stadiums that bring in a lot of revenue. We need that too.

So your point that they led the league for half a season 'a few years back' proves what point?

by **tubby** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:48 pm

john craig wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
john craig wrote:
bavlondon wrote:They also led the table for 1/2 the season a few years ago.

I honestly don't see the relevance of that comment.

Since then they've lost Hleb, Flamini, Adebayor and Toure, while the only established names they've brought in are Arshavin and the so far untested Vermaelen.

The way Arsenal have gone about getting the new stadium is probably how we would need to approach it, unless we get massive investment from somewhere. So Dundalk's point is very valid imo - do we want to essentially drop out of contention for 15-20 years to pay for the stadium? Can we guarantee it's worth it in the long term? The bottom line is that Arsenal will not win a major trophy (by that I mean CL or Prem) as long as they have to stick to this transfer policy, there are simply too many big hitters splashing around money in England and on the continent for Arsenal to realistically compete. Arsene Wenger is a top class manager, not a magician.

They have been forced to blood youth into their team when they lost all their experienced players and to some extent that is what we should be looking to do as well. But to suggest that we should maybe not go ahead with the stadium for fear of turning into them is folly. That is the reason Hicks and Gilette bought us in the first place. There is obviously a transition period when you get a new stadium where you need to tighten the coffers but that is inevitable unless you are backed by a super rich owner.

Not to mention how much money they have still to recoup on sales of the homes/highury. It didn't help with the credit crunch either.

If you look at all the sucessfull teams they all have big stadiums that bring in a lot of revenue. We need that too.

So your point that they led the league for half a season 'a few years back' proves what point?

That they are still a capable team. Wenger is no fool, Arshavin was not even fully fit last season given the dates of the Russian league and he has always managed to replace big players when they leave. That doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes but you cannot write them off so easily.

by **JC_81** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:54 pm

bavlondon wrote:So your point that they led the league for half a season 'a few years back' proves what point?

That they are still a capable team. Wenger is no fool, Arshavin was not even fully fit last season given the dates of the Russian league and he has always managed to replace big players when they leave. That doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes but you cannot write them off so easily.[/quote]
I can and I have.

Since their good half season they've lost 4 key players, 2 of them to their main rivals for the 4th CL spot. A capable team they may be, but only a fool would believe they can win the league with the squad they have currently.

All very well having a 60k plus seater stadium, but if they keep going the way they are going (ie down the league), they'll struggle to fill that stadium in 10 years time. Will it have been worth it then? They need major investment as much as we do, bottom line.

And by the way, your point only goes to prove that they were a capable side one and a half seasons ago. Even at that they collapsed due to a lack of experience which is still evident.

by **tubby** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:03 pm

I guess we will see this season how they fair.

by **dawson99** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:07 pm

bizarre how they are sellign to Citeh, now the closest rivals... but Wenger normally has something up his sleeve, and they got great deals in teh selling, just see if they buy replacements or pay more debts

by **redbeergoggles** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:45 pm

Just watched Arsenal v Rangers and that Wiltshere kid is outstanding ,absolutely going to be a superstar no mistake

by **LFC2007** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:51 pm

Wenger's had opportunities to sign the players he's needed in the past, he just hasn't, even though they've been in desperate need for a CB for the past few seasons. They didn't go about replacing Flamini when they might have gone in for Barry or Alonso, they might even have kept Diarra but they sold him, so this idea that his hands were completely tied is a myth. He may be operating on a relatively tight budget, but he has had funds and opportunities - as he has admitted in the past - to sign these types of players. He prefers to keep faith with the youngsters and wait for someone a bit special before investing a sizeable amount in one or two players; a sensible policy up until the point the balance of the side begins to suffer, and it has.

I think they'll be alright ultimately. At worst they're looking at fifth place next season, but I think they'll be fine for the top four because of the football they play and the manager they have. They've some outstanding talent there with Fabregas, Arshavin, Eduardo, Van Persie, and Rosicky now back. If they were to change manager for whatever reason, then I'd be very concerned if I were an Arsenal fan. They have a group of players that have to play a certain way, they rely on outstanding movement and sharp passing and that's where the managerial element is so influential - in bringing in these specialised recruits and coaching them in the Arsenal philosophy - which us why I think no other manager would be able to go in there and do any better, in fact there's a greater chance they'd plummet. His unique style permeates the whole club, and that's why he's the best man they could have in charge, IMO.

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