Liverpool FC Forum

by **rocky29** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:27 am

Ben Patrick wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Maybe he isn't 100% fit yet. I think once he has had a proper pre season things will be different.

dont mean to sound funny mate, but as far as i am concerned the best way of getting fit is playing.

but i hope you are right.

i dont know what it is with this aquilani rafa saga but something isnt right and i guess we will only findout by the start of next season. Whether the rumours are right that they both will be at juventus or both will stay with us. All i know with rafa is like when he was negotiating his contract he was suddenly wanted by juventus. Now the same thing coming to the end of another barron season and wanting more funds. I think he creates half the rumours himself?

by **SupitsJonF** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:31 am

bavlondon wrote:
bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Roughly his appearance record in starts since the Wolves game at home:

IN
IN
OUT
IN
OUT
IN
OUT
OUT (virus)
OUT
OUT
OUT
IN
OUT
IN
OUT
IN
OUT
IN

Rotation makes you dizzy.

Presumeably soon he must be due to shake it all about.

Does that mean Rafa puts in the hokey-pokey and turns him around? That Rafa does love to turn players around and play them out of position

by **bigmick** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:18 am

Scottbot wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:If Rafa bought him and doesnt play him when hes fit then is Rafa not a prize idiot? People saying he is a bad signing and not suited to the PL are talking absolute bo'llocks.

But you're taking the signing completely out of the context of this season eg. our desperate need to replace Alonso, the fact he was badly injured, the fact the manager seems to have regretted purchasing the player, the fact he has hardly played. All of these factors make him a bad signing. In the context of our season he was a COMPLETE CLUSTERF**K of a signing. There's no getting away from that.

However, going forward, he might be a player for us. I don't think the majority of posters have made their mind up about the lad (you are talking as if they have though), I know I haven't. A few (like Mick) think he's a talented luxury who won't cut it in the EPL but that isn't the overwhelming consensus in this place. Personally, I keep swinging back and forwards. I've gone from yes, to no, to don't know.

I don't believe he can go and be the player we want him to be under Rafa though, not with our style of play and Rafa's emphasis on control and the defensive side of the game. He needs to play with clever players in a team with good movement, and a good passing tempo that can keep it all day. Surround him with Kuyts, Lucas's and Ngogs and he will struggle I think. Rafa likes his hard-working clappers in the side, and he trys to off-set this with a sprinkling of 2-3-4 skill players in the hope that this will provide enough from an attacking stand-point. I don't think this will play to Aquiani's strengths.

Great post that Scott. For my part, the thing which completely baffles me is why some people get so hot under the collar about Aquilani. I don't think he'll make it, they do, so what? I would have thought we're about to find out one way or another, and obviously if he becomes hugely influencial consistently for us I'll be ecstastic to admit I was talking b0ll0cks (it wouldn't be the first time lets be honest).

In the mean time, people put their opinions out there. Some reckon he'll be a revelation, some reckon he isn't suited to it over here, and some want another season or two to make their minds up (they've only just confirmed to all us kneejerkers that Dossena was a bad signing).

As you say, the "bad signing" thing is probably beyond sensible dispute. Replacing one of our best players with someone who takes up most of our transfer budget, who you aren't prepared to play consistently when he's fit is a strange one by any standards. Perhaps it's only because it happened last season that some are getting used to it

Whether or not he's suited to the Premiership though will be proven in time. IMHO he's already proven he's a talented footballer, but once again definitive proof will arrive in one form or another.

It's not often I say it though, but I agree with Rafa for not playing him (although obviously I wouldn't have bought him). I think such is his deficiency defensively that he would at this stage be a liability who's attacking input wouldn't be sufficient to compensate.

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:51 pm

bigmick wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:If Rafa bought him and doesnt play him when hes fit then is Rafa not a prize idiot? People saying he is a bad signing and not suited to the PL are talking absolute bo'llocks.

But you're taking the signing completely out of the context of this season eg. our desperate need to replace Alonso, the fact he was badly injured, the fact the manager seems to have regretted purchasing the player, the fact he has hardly played. All of these factors make him a bad signing. In the context of our season he was a COMPLETE CLUSTERF**K of a signing. There's no getting away from that.

However, going forward, he might be a player for us. I don't think the majority of posters have made their mind up about the lad (you are talking as if they have though), I know I haven't. A few (like Mick) think he's a talented luxury who won't cut it in the EPL but that isn't the overwhelming consensus in this place. Personally, I keep swinging back and forwards. I've gone from yes, to no, to don't know.

I don't believe he can go and be the player we want him to be under Rafa though, not with our style of play and Rafa's emphasis on control and the defensive side of the game. He needs to play with clever players in a team with good movement, and a good passing tempo that can keep it all day. Surround him with Kuyts, Lucas's and Ngogs and he will struggle I think. Rafa likes his hard-working clappers in the side, and he trys to off-set this with a sprinkling of 2-3-4 skill players in the hope that this will provide enough from an attacking stand-point. I don't think this will play to Aquiani's strengths.

Great post that Scott. For my part, the thing which completely baffles me is why some people get so hot under the collar about Aquilani. I don't think he'll make it, they do, so what? I would have thought we're about to find out one way or another, and obviously if he becomes hugely influencial consistently for us I'll be ecstastic to admit I was talking b0ll0cks (it wouldn't be the first time lets be honest).

In the mean time, people put their opinions out there. Some reckon he'll be a revelation, some reckon he isn't suited to it over here, and some want another season or two to make their minds up (they've only just confirmed to all us kneejerkers that Dossena was a bad signing).

As you say, the "bad signing" thing is probably beyond sensible dispute. Replacing one of our best players with someone who takes up most of our transfer budget, who you aren't prepared to play consistently when he's fit is a strange one by any standards. Perhaps it's only because it happened last season that some are getting used to it

Whether or not he's suited to the Premiership though will be proven in time. IMHO he's already proven he's a talented footballer, but once again definitive proof will arrive in one form or another.

It's not often I say it though, but I agree with Rafa for not playing him (although obviously I wouldn't have bought him). I think such is his deficiency defensively that he would at this stage be a liability who's attacking input wouldn't be sufficient to compensate.

I know what youre doing and to be fair youre quite good at it
:;):

The most sensible part of what you said was:
"Replacing one of our best players with someone who takes up most of our transfer budget, who you aren't prepared to play consistently when he's fit is a strange one by any standards."
That tells us Rafas mindset and sums him up in a nutshell. Its fair criticism and Rafa deserves it.
But I dont believe Aquilani is a bad signing. Anyone who can assist as much in such a short time, plus score a goal is a good signing. And I believe that is "beyond sensible dispute"
:eyebrow

by **bigmick** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:39 pm

Sir Roger wrote:But I dont believe Aquilani is a bad signing. Anyone who can assist as much in such a short time, plus score a goal is a good signing. And I believe that is "beyond sensible dispute"

I think you mean you don't believe Aquilani is a bad PLAYER. You presumeably agree it's an awful signing to buy somebody for 20 million quid and then not play them, regardless of who it is. It's a ridiculous piece of business.

Where we really disagree, is whether or not he will eventually come anywhere near justifying his fee (assuming of course that at some point the manager plays him consistently, if he doesn't then surely all bets are off).

by **maguskwt** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:28 am

*the darrrrk side debating on how to keep the blame on Benitez after seeing Aquilani's glimpses of brilliance and getting somewhat excited by it... * :laugh:

by **Rush Job** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:58 am

He was out for a long time and he is now playing in the most physical league there is so I dont think its too much of a supprise that Lucas has got the nod where we would have liked to have seen alberto.
With the "5 seasons, not 5 minutes" line in mind I think Rafa desperately wants him to stay injury free, use this time to feel his way in and get a good pre-season under his belt, then come out all firing next season.
I think the plan was always to switch him round with Lucas just our poor form didnt help as we have been trying to steady the ship most of the season, whether the more creative Aquilani would have served us better in a lot of games is of course a moot point.

by **kazza** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:22 am

bigmick wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:But I dont believe Aquilani is a bad signing. Anyone who can assist as much in such a short time, plus score a goal is a good signing. And I believe that is "beyond sensible dispute"

I think you mean you don't believe Aquilani is a bad PLAYER. You presumeably agree it's an awful signing to buy somebody for 20 million quid and then not play them, regardless of who it is. It's a ridiculous piece of business.

Where we really disagree, is whether or not he will eventually come anywhere near justifying his fee (assuming of course that at some point the manager plays him consistently, if he doesn't then surely all bets are off).

Ferguson and Maureen haven't played players they bought for similar money. Ballack, Shevchenco, Carrick, Hargreves, Anderson, Nani were not always injured. Were these all bad signings or is it because it is Rafa that we are talking about that you label the criticism? Heaven knows Maureen could not have possibly made any mistakes.

by **Owzat** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:01 am

Shevchenko was a political signing and cost £30m which is a bigger whack than £20m, but the manager reputedly didn't want him and possibly didn't even sign him (owner did?). Hargreaves has played very little because he has been injured, I thought it was a bad obsession signing, fergie should have given that up when he signed Carrick instead.

Nani was second fiddle to Ronaldo while he was still there and then had an inconsistent run early season 09/10, so again not a case of being dropped when doing enough to justify his place. Anderson and Nani cost a reported £30m combined, not sure why the fee was put as "combined" when they played for different clubs. Besides anything else, comparing our midfield with Chelsea's and the mancs' is a bit bold considering their midfields aren't lacking creativity. While we may have comparable goals for at home in the league with Arsenal and the mancs, not Chelsea, we're way off the pace away and still Rafa thinks two DMs is the answer. If Aquilani worked hard defensively I reckon he'd be in the side every game, that in itself could make it a bad signing.

PREMIERSHIP GOALS 09/10

93 Chelsea 1st (H60 A33)
81 Man Utd 2nd (H48 A33)
78 Arsenal 3rd (H44 A34)
69 Man City 6th (H38 A31)
63 Tottenham 5th (H39 A24)
61 Liverpool 7th (H43 A18)
59 Everton 8th (H34 A25)
51 A Villa 6th (H29 A22)

20 goals worse off than the mancs in second, I've not compared to Chelsea as that is an unusually high tally - only four short of equalling the Premiership record for goals scored (97 scored by the mancs in 99/00)

We can barely afford to sign £20m players let alone sign one and not play him when fit, especially considering he is supposed to replace Alonso in terms of being our creative midfielder. So the distinction between being a bad player and a bad signing is justified, if you sign someone who is good enough and don't play him then that qualifies as a bad signing, just as signing Shevchenko does and Keane. Might not necessarily be something the player does wrong, some signings simply don't work out - the manager plays a hand in that as well you know..........................

by **kazza** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:29 am

Owzat wrote:Shevchenko was a political signing Hargreaves has played very little because he has been injured, I thought it was a bad obsession signing, fergie should have given that up when he signed Carrick instead.

Nani was second fiddle to Ronaldo while he was still there and then had an inconsistent run early season 09/10, so again not a case of being dropped when doing enough to justify his place

Rafa never wanted Keane.

Hargreves and Carrick have not justified their price tag and have not always been injured.

Ronaldo was injured for much of last year and Nani did not play that much or make an impact.

Point is you can point fingers at our manager all you want (not you Owzat), but unless criticism is put in context (ie other managers that you idolise's similar mistakes) then it has no credibility when comparing who is better.

by **kazza** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:35 am

Maureen and Fergie can sign ten players a season and have half be "flops". Last year Rafa signed Aquilani, Johnson, Greek and Maxi. Jury is still out on Aquilani but the rest were improvements.

by **bigmick** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:35 am

Anyway back into reality land, time will tell if Aquilani works out or not. I don't think he will, some think he definately will, and for some the jury is still out. Whether or not other managers made successful signings or not is somewhat irrelevent when we are discussing him I think, and in any case the comparison seems a little odd, particurly when you consider how many trophies some of the managers we are comparing have won.

I've made my call on Aquilani, so have some others. Those that are sitting on the fence obviously have more chance of being right (and such things bother them quite a lot), but ultimately time will tell. Obviously so far he's been a poor signing because he hasn't been able to get into the team, but that may change of course.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:10 am

kazza wrote:Rafa never wanted Keane.

Keep saying that totally made up excuse and it will come true one day :no

by **bigmick** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:01 am

Ben Patrick wrote:
kazza wrote:Rafa never wanted Keane.

Keep saying that totally made up excuse and it will come true one day

It's incredible really isn't it.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:39 am

bigmick wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
kazza wrote:Rafa never wanted Keane.

Keep saying that totally made up excuse and it will come true one day

It's incredible really isn't it.

I dont mind people still being behind the manager defending him.
Thats fair enough.

But when rubbish like that keeps being spouted then its tedious.
Just as if the board completed our major signing of that summer without Rafas consent :laugh:

Liverpool FC Forum

ALBERTO AQUILANI - Official Thread

Who is online