Liverpool FC Forum

by **redbeergoggles** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:24 pm

made in UK wrote:Oh I see, tit for tat.

Childish I know, but essential for my egotistical stance

by **Kerry07** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:28 pm

Disgusting player.

From having control in midfield with Alonso, to absolutely none with this carthorse.

lucas leiva..getting to wear a Liverpool FC shirt....im literally depressed.

by **aCe'** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:38 pm

Kerry07 wrote:Disgusting player.

From having control in midfield with Alonso, to absolutely none with this carthorse.

lucas leiva..getting to wear a Liverpool FC shirt....im literally depressed.

lmao !

by **muzza798** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:46 pm

His complete lack of urgency, ability to track back, his lack of ability to defend atall and his unability to find a single killer ball is why our season has gone down the shitter.

by **fivecups** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:53 pm

He is not good enough. Tries hard but not good enough.

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:20 am

In not defending him but lets be honest there was no-one who was better than him tonight.
It comes to something when Carragher was our best attacking player...

by **shawnk** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:31 am

There's something in Lucas that Rafa can see but not most of us and the reason he's in his starting XI almost every match.
I think it has to do with following Rafa's plan and executing it aka simple short/square/safe/back passes.

Looking further into his achievement in wiki......
"Lucas also became the youngest player to ever to receive Placar magazine's Bola de Ouro (Golden Ball), given to the best player in the Campeonato Brasileiro — an honour previously won by the likes of Zico, Falcão, Careca, Alex, Fowi, Romario, Kaká and Tevez."
Personal Awards

* Winner
o Bola de Ouro (Brazilian Footballer of the year): 2006

Wow, he's a fcking Brazilian Footballer of the Year.
I just dont understand why he's so average in Liverpool.

by **oakton** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:36 am

maybe the football standard in Brazil is going downhill.

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:56 am

oakton wrote:maybe the football standard in Brazil is going downhill.

Partly correct.

I aint being arrogant in the slightest here... but simply through reading, listening, and watching football endlessly.. i do have far greater knowledge than posters such as "shawnk" on this particular carthorse lucas.

Firstly... the standard in the Brasilian Serie A (Brasileirão) has been MASSIVELY weakened since the turn of the Millennium as top Brasilian players are sold MUCH YOUNGER to European teams than EVER before... this is due to $$$ (Growth in Agencies such as Media Sports Investments who own the registration of players, and predominantly sell them in their teens)

This means the Brasil league is devoid of all its top young talent (ie.Pato going to Milan at 17)... and is full of players not good enough to play in Europe, and oldies who have come back from Europe to retire. So.. the contentious "Brasil Serie A player of the year "award" has been WATERED DOWN. A good comparison with the best football talent leaving Brasil much sooner, is the split in darts (where the top players left the BDO to go to PDC)... so the "brasil player of the year" is akin to the BDO darts (the shitty BBC one) naming the winner of it the darts player of the year... while the PDC is where the best players Taylor, Barneveld, Lewis etc.. play.

Heres another farcical watered down "award"..Clueless Davy Moyes...has 3 manager of the year "awards", thats 2 more than Shanks!!!!!!! :laugh:

A watered down "award" in a weakened league", is now meaningless. Tim Vickery (top BBC SA correspondent) has savaged him. The boy cost 6million, and in 2 and a half years i can count his total contributions on one hand...

Goal vs the mighty havent & waterlooville, assist against the soon to be relegated Newcastle and their renowned watertight defence at St.James park, a scuffed deflected consolation goal vs Chelsea, shot against bitters at Woodison that Pip Neville saved, and an assist for ngog (the sum total of this seasons contribution)

WOW.... having listed his entire contributions (note i didnt include his own goal that killed us against Villa in August as that can happen to decent players).. i'm mystified as to why no one rates him in the media, pundits, fans of other teams... nor why he invokes groans during games from our fans or why he got booed when he came on recently. Its a total mystery. I also dont get why Gilberto Silva (the former Arsenal clogger) who starts, Anderson (ManU benchwarmer) and Elano (City reject) are all ahead of him for Brasil. Hmmmmmm.....

Right...so he has no single attribute, a powder puff player with no passing range (cannot "make the assist for the assist"), doesnt create, doesnt score.. and gives absolutely no control in midfield where we now get dominated by such heavyweights as Portsmouth, Fuham, Reading, Sunderland... AHHH... but he apparently has decent passing percentage!!! ...David Batty (another 5 yard sidepass nothing merchant) regularly had a passing success rate of over 90%...there is zero positive contribution. Its called "pointless passing" because its non productive.. there is no method, no penetration, end product.

Lucas...played 28, 1 assist (ngog), 0 goals... no passing range

The devastation of the downgrade from Alonso to Lucas has caused to the team....

Lucas has come in and directly taken Alonso's place in midfield. Last year we had Alonso the deep defensive playmaker, and Mascherano the defensive ball winner.. the perfect balance. With Alonso we CONTROLLED midfield, we had a shape, a platform... linking defence and attack. If you control midfield VERY RARELY will you lose. As Aquilani said last week "EVERYTHING WENT THROUGH ALONSO"... he was the brains, the conductor who orchestrated the play, controlled the tempo and gave us composure in the most important area on the field.. slap bang in center midfield. He would DEMAND the ball of Carra (and the back 4).. then ping it 30/40 yards to a wide player/Gerrard... the Link man.. who "made the assist for the assist" - and so making it easier for THEM to then create... thats all gone. It was pinball in there vs Reading..completely loose, a lottery in midfield. The wide men aint getting the quality service to THEN have an easier task of creating, Gerrard aint getting the quality service anymore to then have an easier chance of scoring from 30 yards out (note his goal tally skyrocketed when Alonso arrived as he would allow Gerrard to play advanced and always find him)... Torres is feeding off SCRAPS (at Villa he had one f*cking chance in the 94th minute from a deflected richochet)... the attacking players aint getting the service from deep anymore that Alonso gave. With that sole loss... we have ripped out the brains of the team who gave us control in midfield, and directly replaced him with a brasilian reserve who has left us rudderless and devoid of any direction/control.

I have heard people say "ahhhh but everyones been sh*t this season, so dont just blame lucas"...*FACEPALM*. key players that all have just COINCIDENTLY lost form this season....

Carra (and the defence) - now having to HOOF ball as theres no Alonso there to come deep and DEMAND the ball of them (lucas cant do it, and Carra knowing his ability doesnt trust him)... this means with now hoofing it we give it straight back to the opposition, they get more possession, more chances, hence our defence is under greater pressure than anytime in the last 10 years. The defence hasnt weakened..its the same defence, the problem is theres absolutely no control or composure in midfield (think 1st half in Istanbul when we didnt have a passer/destroyer midfield combination infront of back 4).. so shots reign in, through balls are played through...THERE IS NOTHING THE DEFENCE CAN DO. Lyon had 17 shots at Anfield, the defence done magnificently to hold them to just scoring 2. Look at Barcas defence/goalkeeper... its p*sspoor in comparison to ours, BUT they have a midfield that plays keep ball so its never exposed (last years CL final a prime example as the Spanish duo deprived and starved Uniteds midfield any ball to then supply Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and co.)

Mascherano - hes disillusioned (more than just Barca speculation), and he stated "we cannot lose Alonso".. as he knew more than anyone the control he gave to midfield. He was the perfect foil for Masch.. who just had to feed him the ball

Gerrard (and wide men such as kuyt, Benayoun) - no longer get the service, the 30 yard plus passes straight to feet that cut through the opposition, that make creating easier, no longer happen. Gerrard stated in late November that he is "devastated" Alonso (the man who lucas has filled in for) has gone. Top players know when a team has been weakened and aint good enough.

I feel desperately sorry for these guys... as their performance is being badly affected by this weakness in midfield, the downgrade that is dragging down consistent world class performers. Reina looks better than ever.... why??? because he is FAR busier.. and thats a massive negative, as the last thing you want is your keeper to be named MOTM regularly, opposing teams controlling midfield and peppering shots at will, i prefer us to control midfield, and him to have quiet games (ala Clemence) and pick up Golden glove awards as he has done 3 times. Busy keepers is for sh*tty teams who get outclassed and dominated in games.

I dont think some people realise the sheer devastation losing Alonso and being directly replaced by lucas has done. I was already nervous in pre season (watched Espanyol dominate us in midfield and ran out easy 3-0 winners - the score when Alonso came on for the last 5 minutes in his last appearance). Id never seen us get so thoroughly outclassed and outpassed in midfield... and the season has followed on that course. We have not played well ONCE this season, and i mean football... as the game vs United was pure hard graft, atmopshere of the stadium..to quote BBC "it wasnt pretty"... but we got the result... as we did at OT last year with a direct long ball game bypassing midfield (we had 44% possession) and had two 70 yard assists and the other two goals Gerrard created.

I have heard people say we all must "DEFEND THE PLAYERS"... and yes i do agree its important to do so..... IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH. If Gerrard is having a poor game i will defend and support him, if Torres is not in the game i will defend and support him (usually because hes disgracefully being starved of decent service), if Carra, Masch, Reina, Agger..are having a poor game i will defend them, because they are all quality players whose class will return. But what i wont (nor should any genuine LFC fan who wants the best for the club) condone, defend, and support failure... or feel sorry for people who (regardless if they are nice guys who try hard) AINT GOOD ENOUGH. That mentality prolongs failure... Barca fans do not condone cr*p, hence they get the best. Lucas would not get anywhere near their reserve team. He expected to be sold in the Summer, and back to Brasil such is lack of worth --- hes a "yes man" who wont give you any backchat, and Rafa likes his yes men, obedient footsoldiers regardless of lack of talent (as opposed to opinionated players with far greater abiity such as Bellamy)

We look lost on the field... there is no one running the show, there is no conductor, no orchestrator. That for example has NEVER been Gerrards role (when he made his debut it was Redknapp, followed by McAllister, Hamann, then Alonso).. even the 3 time Old Trafford winning goalscorer Danny Murphy (a vastly superior player to Lucas) did it though to a lesser quality. We have no brains in midfield... and regardless of how good your defence is (5 years consecutive among best in Europe), attacking comination (Gerrard/Torres perfection)... if your engine room in the center of the field has no controller, you will get outplayed and outclassed by teams you previously would have destroyed.

Until we get a top class central midfielder who can give us control of the most important area on the field, we will continue to be loose as f*ck slap bang in the center, pinball, a bag of nerves, the defence wont have any composure infront of it, the attack wont get penetrating service... and the losses will rack up. Yes its an XI man game... but it only takes 1 player (in the most important position central to everything) to have a devastating effect on the entire team.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:12 am

Kerry07 wrote:A watered down "award" in a weakened league", is now meaningless. Tim Vickery (top BBC SA correspondent) has savaged him.

Got a question about South American football for Tim Vickery? Email him at vickerycolumn@hotmail.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is Lucas Leiva? What is his true position? And based on a previous article about South American youngsters leaving too early, eg. Gabriel Paletta, is Lucas ready to come to the Premiership just yet?
Mark Williams, Leamington Spa (and many others).

These moves are always a gamble, but I think this is a good one.

He's an exciting player of a type that Brazilian football hasn't produced too many of recently. Of late their central midfielders have tended to be 'holders' who sit and allow the full-backs to push forward.

Lucas is different. He's a big, blonde figure whose power and physical strength comes with attacking ability.

He can pass well and loves to rumble forward. He gets on the scoresheet both with blistering shots from range and from bursting beyond the strikers.

You can certainly imagine him playing alongside Javier Mascherano, for example.

I don't have the same fears for him as I did with Paletta. He's had two full seasons behind him - one helping Gremio win promotion from the second division, and then last year's success when he was chosen as the player of the championship.

In a perfect world you might want him to stay another year before moving on, but (a) Gremio need to sell to balance the books and (b) with Liverpool's strength in depth in central midfield it looks as if his first campaign will be a bedding in season.

bbc

:oops:

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:57 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:A watered down "award" in a weakened league", is now meaningless. Tim Vickery (top BBC SA correspondent) has savaged him.

Got a question about South American football for Tim Vickery? Email him at vickerycolumn@hotmail.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is Lucas Leiva? What is his true position? And based on a previous article about South American youngsters leaving too early, eg. Gabriel Paletta, is Lucas ready to come to the Premiership just yet?
Mark Williams, Leamington Spa (and many others).

These moves are always a gamble, but I think this is a good one.

He's an exciting player of a type that Brazilian football hasn't produced too many of recently. Of late their central midfielders have tended to be 'holders' who sit and allow the full-backs to push forward.

Lucas is different. He's a big, blonde figure whose power and physical strength comes with attacking ability.

He can pass well and loves to rumble forward. He gets on the scoresheet both with blistering shots from range and from bursting beyond the strikers.

You can certainly imagine him playing alongside Javier Mascherano, for example

I don't have the same fears for him as I did with Paletta. He's had two full seasons behind him - one helping Gremio win promotion from the second division, and then last year's success when he was chosen as the player of the championship.

In a perfect world you might want him to stay another year before moving on, but (a) Gremio need to sell to balance the books and (b) with Liverpool's strength in depth in central midfield it looks as if his first campaign will be a bedding in season.

bbc

Tim

Those "blistering shots" have had the whole Premiership purrring. :laugh:

And with lucas staggering "attacking ability" of 1 assist, 0 goals, and an own goal (so hes minus) in 28 games has ensured the media aint saying that without Gerrard and Torres we have no one else to do anything in the attacking third... nor that no one in the media, pundits or fans of other teams rate him.

To be fair to Tim he stated it in 2007. Even Tim (the best football analyst imo) aint infallible. What that article does do is highlight what type of player lucas is... and does in the watered down Brasil reserve league against mickey mouse teams, but this step up ("gamble" as Tim called it) was too vast with him being completely out of his depth, and the devasation of the downgrade from Alonso to lucas has caused to a midfield that no longer has any control.

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:11 am

Gerrards comments on Alonso (whom the diabolical lucas has directly filled in for)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=693666&cc=5739

Gerrard 'devastated' by Alonso exit

Steven Gerrard was "devastated'' when Xabi Alonso left Liverpool and believes the club's current troubles are evidence of the size of the hole Alonso has left in Rafael Benitez's engine room.

Liverpool captain Gerrard, who is currently injured, forged a good understanding with Alonso in midfield and paid him perhaps the biggest compliment by suggesting Alonso's absence has been the "difference in us from last year".

Alonso moved on to Real Madrid in the summer, since when Liverpool have struggled for form in the Premier League and Champions League. It was a move which hit Gerrard hard.

"Devastated, yeah. Devastated. But there was nothing I could do about it,'' he told FourFourTwo magazine. "Xabi said a long time ago that he wanted another chapter in his career and finally he got it and his team-mates and the coaches couldn't stand in his way. We just have to say thanks and move forward without him.''

Liverpool recouped around £30million for 27-year-old Alonso, and spent most of that on bringing replacement Alberto Aquilani to Anfield from Roma. Aquilani missed the first two months of the season due to injury and Liverpool have already lost seven matches.

Gerrard knew it would take Liverpool time to adapt to life without Alonso, who in a deep-lying playmaker role had a vital duty in Benitez's team.

Gerrard said: "It's always going to be different when you lose one of the best players in the world - and people are finally realising that's what he is, on the back of his form for Real Madrid and the difference in us from last year.

"We've got other midfielders here doing a good job but it will take a while before Alonso's out of our system because he was such a top player.''

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top players such as Gerrard know when a team has been weakened and aint good enough. When players see their team being weakened as happened with the downgrade of lucas coming in directly for Alonso, it leaves them disillusioned... with a "where is this team going"?? mentality. All control that we used to have in midfield with Alonso has gone... its a bag of nerves in there, pinball...loose as f*ck, hence now gets dominated routinely.

Gerrard (and wide men such as kuyt, Benayoun) - no longer get the service from Alonso, the 30 yard plus passes straight to feet that cut through the opposition, that make creating easier... thats all gone, hence Gerrard is more isolated in not getting decent service.... and is depressed as a result.

by **Sir Roger** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:42 am

Kerry07 wrote:Gerrards comments on Alonso (whom the diabolical lucas has directly filled in for)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=693666&cc=5739

Gerrard 'devastated' by Alonso exit

Steven Gerrard was "devastated'' when Xabi Alonso left Liverpool and believes the club's current troubles are evidence of the size of the hole Alonso has left in Rafael Benitez's engine room.

Liverpool captain Gerrard, who is currently injured, forged a good understanding with Alonso in midfield and paid him perhaps the biggest compliment by suggesting Alonso's absence has been the "difference in us from last year".

Alonso moved on to Real Madrid in the summer, since when Liverpool have struggled for form in the Premier League and Champions League. It was a move which hit Gerrard hard.

"Devastated, yeah. Devastated. But there was nothing I could do about it,'' he told FourFourTwo magazine. "Xabi said a long time ago that he wanted another chapter in his career and finally he got it and his team-mates and the coaches couldn't stand in his way. We just have to say thanks and move forward without him.''

Liverpool recouped around £30million for 27-year-old Alonso, and spent most of that on bringing replacement Alberto Aquilani to Anfield from Roma. Aquilani missed the first two months of the season due to injury and Liverpool have already lost seven matches.

Gerrard knew it would take Liverpool time to adapt to life without Alonso, who in a deep-lying playmaker role had a vital duty in Benitez's team.

Gerrard said: "It's always going to be different when you lose one of the best players in the world - and people are finally realising that's what he is, on the back of his form for Real Madrid and the difference in us from last year.

"We've got other midfielders here doing a good job but it will take a while before Alonso's out of our system because he was such a top player.''

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top players such as Gerrard know when a team has been weakened and aint good enough. When players see their team being weakened as happened with the downgrade of lucas coming in directly for Alonso, it leaves them disillusioned... with a "where is this team going"?? mentality. All control that we used to have in midfield with Alonso has gone... its a bag of nerves in there, pinball...loose as f*ck, hence now gets dominated routinely.

Gerrard (and wide men such as kuyt, Benayoun) - no longer get the service from Alonso, the 30 yard plus passes straight to feet that cut through the opposition, that make creating easier... thats all gone, hence Gerrard is more isolated in not getting decent service.... and is depressed as a result.

Gerrard obviously cant see what Rafa sees
Thats why Rafas the manager and he isnt

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:16 am

Sir Roger wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:Gerrards comments on Alonso (whom the diabolical lucas has directly filled in for)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=693666&cc=5739

Gerrard 'devastated' by Alonso exit

Steven Gerrard was "devastated'' when Xabi Alonso left Liverpool and believes the club's current troubles are evidence of the size of the hole Alonso has left in Rafael Benitez's engine room.

Liverpool captain Gerrard, who is currently injured, forged a good understanding with Alonso in midfield and paid him perhaps the biggest compliment by suggesting Alonso's absence has been the "difference in us from last year".

Alonso moved on to Real Madrid in the summer, since when Liverpool have struggled for form in the Premier League and Champions League. It was a move which hit Gerrard hard.

"Devastated, yeah. Devastated. But there was nothing I could do about it,'' he told FourFourTwo magazine. "Xabi said a long time ago that he wanted another chapter in his career and finally he got it and his team-mates and the coaches couldn't stand in his way. We just have to say thanks and move forward without him.''

Liverpool recouped around £30million for 27-year-old Alonso, and spent most of that on bringing replacement Alberto Aquilani to Anfield from Roma. Aquilani missed the first two months of the season due to injury and Liverpool have already lost seven matches.

Gerrard knew it would take Liverpool time to adapt to life without Alonso, who in a deep-lying playmaker role had a vital duty in Benitez's team.

Gerrard said: "It's always going to be different when you lose one of the best players in the world - and people are finally realising that's what he is, on the back of his form for Real Madrid and the difference in us from last year.

"We've got other midfielders here doing a good job but it will take a while before Alonso's out of our system because he was such a top player.''

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top players such as Gerrard know when a team has been weakened and aint good enough. When players see their team being weakened as happened with the downgrade of lucas coming in directly for Alonso, it leaves them disillusioned... with a "where is this team going"?? mentality. All control that we used to have in midfield with Alonso has gone... its a bag of nerves in there, pinball...loose as f*ck, hence now gets dominated routinely.

Gerrard (and wide men such as kuyt, Benayoun) - no longer get the service from Alonso, the 30 yard plus passes straight to feet that cut through the opposition, that make creating easier... thats all gone, hence Gerrard is more isolated in not getting decent service.... and is depressed as a result.

Gerrard obviously cant see what Rafa sees
Thats why Rafas the manager and he isnt

Rafa obviously cant see what Gerrard sees.

Thats why Gerrard is a player and Rafa aint ever.

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:39 am

Sir Roger wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:Gerrards comments on Alonso (whom the diabolical lucas has directly filled in for)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=693666&cc=5739

Gerrard 'devastated' by Alonso exit

Steven Gerrard was "devastated'' when Xabi Alonso left Liverpool and believes the club's current troubles are evidence of the size of the hole Alonso has left in Rafael Benitez's engine room.

Liverpool captain Gerrard, who is currently injured, forged a good understanding with Alonso in midfield and paid him perhaps the biggest compliment by suggesting Alonso's absence has been the "difference in us from last year".

Alonso moved on to Real Madrid in the summer, since when Liverpool have struggled for form in the Premier League and Champions League. It was a move which hit Gerrard hard.

"Devastated, yeah. Devastated. But there was nothing I could do about it,'' he told FourFourTwo magazine. "Xabi said a long time ago that he wanted another chapter in his career and finally he got it and his team-mates and the coaches couldn't stand in his way. We just have to say thanks and move forward without him.''

Liverpool recouped around £30million for 27-year-old Alonso, and spent most of that on bringing replacement Alberto Aquilani to Anfield from Roma. Aquilani missed the first two months of the season due to injury and Liverpool have already lost seven matches.

Gerrard knew it would take Liverpool time to adapt to life without Alonso, who in a deep-lying playmaker role had a vital duty in Benitez's team.

Gerrard said: "It's always going to be different when you lose one of the best players in the world - and people are finally realising that's what he is, on the back of his form for Real Madrid and the difference in us from last year.

"We've got other midfielders here doing a good job but it will take a while before Alonso's out of our system because he was such a top player.''

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top players such as Gerrard know when a team has been weakened and aint good enough. When players see their team being weakened as happened with the downgrade of lucas coming in directly for Alonso, it leaves them disillusioned... with a "where is this team going"?? mentality. All control that we used to have in midfield with Alonso has gone... its a bag of nerves in there, pinball...loose as f*ck, hence now gets dominated routinely.

Gerrard (and wide men such as kuyt, Benayoun) - no longer get the service from Alonso, the 30 yard plus passes straight to feet that cut through the opposition, that make creating easier... thats all gone, hence Gerrard is more isolated in not getting decent service.... and is depressed as a result.

Gerrard obviously cant see what Rafa sees
Thats why Rafas the manager and he isnt

And that's why we are in the position we are right now (perhaps that should read mess!).....and the reason why if Rafa remains in charge Gerrard will walk at the end of the season. :nod

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