Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:43 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I don't see why since we have 2 natrual players IE Babel and Kuyt we don't play a real 4-3-3 It makes sense like Barca do.

With just 1 DM like this

RB CB CB LB

DM
AM AM
RF CF LF

Fill in who ever is fit.

That's definitely worth a go in any case we HAVE to try something new, what you are doing is not working RAFA, wake the feck up will YA!!

Stevie in the middle is a no brainer and has been all season to everybody except the genius who is Rafa. What the holy feck does he see in Lucas that nobody else can see, maybe it's another one of these 5 year missions.

Upfront I'd try one of the youngsters, give Pachecho a go or one of the other 100 younsters who have been signed, they cannot be any worse than Wash, they may even surprise us, remember Micael Owen on his debut, who the hell was expecting that.

Regarding Michael Owen, the answer is, almost everyone.

Anyone who had seen the kid play knew that he was miles above everyone at every level he played.

we don't need the next michael owen. I mean yea, it would be great, but to expect that kind of standard is pretty crazy. Right now I would settle for the next Agbonlahor. Even a youngster of that quality would help out the squad right now.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:10 pm

stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:Midfield is clearly a nonsense as is, and without stirring up the blanket throwers by mentioning their names, three of our midfield four are providing zero creativity. It's time to bite the bullet and get Gerrard back into central midfield, tell him to hold his runs a bit if he isn't fit.

And despite this supposed lack of creativity we're still the 3rd top scorers in the league. Creativity wasn't the problem the other day. It was the inability to keep the ball that was our downfall. You can't create if you repeatedly give the ball away.

We certainly lacked creativity against City and the two goals shouldn't mask that fact. For the majority of the game they maintained a compact shape which we struggled badly to penetrate. Our play tended to be flat, predictable and lacking in variety, with our best chances arising from set-plays. I didn't think we were at all likely to score from incisive attacking play which is why it didn't surprise me that our opener came from a free-kick, and the second by virtue of a bit of urgency and a funny deflection. If we'd carried a real threat from open play, I'm not so sure City would've countered as effectively as they did.

There's a reason it kept coming back and that is that the players we relied on for our creativity in attack were (are) the same players we relied on to provide an outlet (through intelligence, strength, composure), which was lacking at key stages i.e. between our opener and their second. They played through us in the passage of play leading up to the corner that subsequently led to the equaliser (warning signs were there: they won two corners immediately prior). They played through us for their second, and they played through us on a number of subsequent occasions. A typical Liverpool side with a 1-0 lead at home in this type of game would normally have controlled the game with sensible possession play; if we lost it, we'd get it back quickly and we'd keep it for a while. Only then would we endeavour to get a second. We couldn't even get the first part right, which is why for the aforementioned period we lost control of the midfield big time (Ireland/Tevez instrumental) and that's why they were able to cut us open in the manner that they did (and it wasn't just for the goal, they had several 'nearly' moments). No one can seriously say that we controlled the game well enough and that it was 'simply the defence' that caused us to only to draw. Masch was very good overall, but Lucas was a passenger virtually throughout, Gerrard anonymous for about 70', Kuyt almost completely ineffectual and Benny just knackered. Effective possession play is part of defensive awareness and we've been lacking that.

by **heimdall** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:18 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I don't see why since we have 2 natrual players IE Babel and Kuyt we don't play a real 4-3-3 It makes sense like Barca do.

With just 1 DM like this

RB CB CB LB

DM
AM AM
RF CF LF

Fill in who ever is fit.

That's definitely worth a go in any case we HAVE to try something new, what you are doing is not working RAFA, wake the feck up will YA!!

Stevie in the middle is a no brainer and has been all season to everybody except the genius who is Rafa. What the holy feck does he see in Lucas that nobody else can see, maybe it's another one of these 5 year missions.

Upfront I'd try one of the youngsters, give Pachecho a go or one of the other 100 younsters who have been signed, they cannot be any worse than Wash, they may even surprise us, remember Micael Owen on his debut, who the hell was expecting that.

Regarding Michael Owen, the answer is, almost everyone.

Anyone who had seen the kid play knew that he was miles above everyone at every level he played.

Yes ok but was it expected he would just slot straight into the first team, I don't think so, in any case my point is that we have to give some of these promising yongsters a run in the team. I would like to see a 4-4-2 with Wash and perhaps Pachecho. Wash is not good enough to play upfront on his own, maybe pairing him up would help him to settle down and improve his game.

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:09 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:Midfield is clearly a nonsense as is, and without stirring up the blanket throwers by mentioning their names, three of our midfield four are providing zero creativity. It's time to bite the bullet and get Gerrard back into central midfield, tell him to hold his runs a bit if he isn't fit.

And despite this supposed lack of creativity we're still the 3rd top scorers in the league. Creativity wasn't the problem the other day. It was the inability to keep the ball that was our downfall. You can't create if you repeatedly give the ball away.

We certainly lacked creativity against City and the two goals shouldn't mask that fact. For the majority of the game they maintained a compact shape which we struggled badly to penetrate. Our play tended to be flat, predictable and lacking in variety, with our best chances arising from set-plays. I didn't think we were at all likely to score from incisive attacking play which is why it didn't surprise me that our opener came from a free-kick, and the second by virtue of a bit of urgency and a funny deflection. If we'd carried a real threat from open play, I'm not so sure City would've countered as effectively as they did.

There's a reason it kept coming back and that is that the players we relied on for our creativity in attack were (are) the same players we relied on to provide an outlet (through intelligence, strength, composure), which was lacking at key stages i.e. between our opener and their second. They played through us in the passage of play leading up to the corner that subsequently led to the equaliser (warning signs were there: they won two corners immediately prior). They played through us for their second, and they played through us on a number of subsequent occasions. A typical Liverpool side with a 1-0 lead at home in this type of game would normally have controlled the game with sensible possession play; if we lost it, we'd get it back quickly and we'd keep it for a while. Only then would we endeavour to get a second. We couldn't even get the first part right, which is why for the aforementioned period we lost control of the midfield big time (Ireland/Tevez instrumental) and that's why they were able to cut us open in the manner that they did (and it wasn't just for the goal, they had several 'nearly' moments). No one can seriously say that we controlled the game well enough and that it was 'simply the defence' that caused us to only to draw. Masch was very good overall, but Lucas was a passenger virtually throughout, Gerrard anonymous for about 70', Kuyt almost completely ineffectual and Benny just knackered. Effective possession play is part of defensive awareness and we've been lacking that.

100% agree. I'm staggered anyone could watch the Man City game and conclude that we weren't lacking creativity.

by **made in UK** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:39 pm

Ciggy wrote:
made in UK wrote:
Actually he has just played for Holland upfront in their two games last week and looked more dangerous than he does when playing for us on the right.

Thats the problem though he doesn't look dangerous upfront for us.

Maybe because Holland play bloody good attacking football theres a thought .

Once everyone is fit i want to see the team I posted the other day and I still stick by it, they are the best what we have available to us, so there is no excuse.

We are currently playing with 7 defensive minded players and conceeding goals like a sieve at set pieces whats the point? seriously?

the shackles need to come off again like last season and let the players go for it, they have never looked happier playing the football we did last season, let them do it again I say.

We've been there and agonisingly seen it fail for extensive periods of time. Lets not go back there again hey?

You can point the finger at our side for not playing attacking football like Holland. But you cannot blame our side when Kuyt is unable to score goals after extensive periods upfront. When opportunities are presented (which they have beenn for Kuyt) he has been unable to take them.

Changing our formation and moving him back upfront would be a disaster IMO. Rafa's job is looking precarious as it is, a goal drought now would only make his situation go from if to when.

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:50 pm

It is not the formation, tactics or selections.
It is simply bad defending due to laziness, sloppiness and ball watching
It needs to be stamped out immediately

by **Owzat** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:13 pm

The problem is Rafa is hung up on the two DM approach, it sporadically worked previously BUT only because Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres were playing well. Without those key elements (playing well, and without Johnson) we've got six defensive players with little creativity, an inexperienced young forward, struggling to get a fit LM and the system doesn't look remotely like working. Even at its best it wasn't infallable, our best run of consecutive league wins is FIVE since 05/06 and back then we weren't playing this formation.

Even the run-in last season had a few things need highlighting among the 10 wins in 11 league games. 1) We had ALONSO, 2) three of the last five wins were against WBA (relegated), Newcastle (relegated) and Hull (narrowly avoided the drop) with Sunderland and Blackburn among the first five wins and 3) we were playing good, free-flowing football in which we scored 35 goals in those 11 league games and Torres (6), Benayoun (6), Kuyt (5) and Gerrard (7) were all in excellent scoring form.

A change in formation would be sensible, but for the fact we've little or nothing much better than N'Gog and Kuyt to offer up front, Rafa is not a man willing to make (sensible) changes and I fear he leans towards fielding as much experience as possible - a la Carra at RB, not risking someone other than Kuyt at RM when out of form etc

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:29 pm

Owzat wrote:The problem is Rafa is hung up on the two DM approach

The thing is, when he came to Liverpool Lucas wasn't primarily a defensive midfielder. He was a box to box player in Brazil who used to score goals quite regularly. Whether Rafa has coached this out of him I don't know but to be fair to the lad he has got in some really decent positions whilst playing for us but has fluffed his lines infront of goal. He's got into far more goalscoring positions than Alonso ever did for example.

by **heimdall** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:32 pm

stmichael wrote:
Owzat wrote:The problem is Rafa is hung up on the two DM approach

The thing is, when he came to Liverpool Lucas wasn't primaril a defensive midfielder. He was a box to box player in Brazil who used to score goals regularly. Whether Rafa has coached this out of him I don't know but to be fair to the lad he has got in some really decent positions whilst playing for us but has fluffed his lines infront of goal. He's got into far more goalscoring positions than Alonso ever did for example.

true but Alonso created a hell of a lot more, my only gripe with Xabi was his lack of goals, otherwise he was and is a very good midfielder. Lucas brings nothing to the team at all.

by **Owzat** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:48 pm

Alonso tried to chip the keeper too much, I've said before he has the ball-striking technique to score as many from the edge of the box as Torres and Gerrard. Now Mascherano has taken on the mantle of wasteful shooter.

I've always maintained Lucas doesn't have the range of passing, a decent hustle and bustle player but with no "killer pass". While Rafa has maintained games are "crucial", he has shown little indication he will risk Aquilani while risking others coming back from injury like Agger, Benayoun etc. By the time Aquilani plays any part in the season it could effectively be over, personally I think Rafa was torn between trying to beat Citeh to improve our top four prospects and planning ahead for Debrecen. Last thing you can afford to be is caught between two stools, we badly needed three points at the weekend while winning in Hungary could be all in vain and just mean we have to juggle U-ropey leak football with a bid to finish top four. Last time we had a juggling act, we won in Istanbul but let the bitters finish above us for the first time in fecknose how many years (by my reckoning since they last won the league)

I might have risked Babel as a CF alongside Wash or Kuyt, but Rafa seems to prefer to 'control' the midfield even though we have no end product without Gerrard and Torres. Maybe having two strikers will mean no supply, but we need as many goalscoring options as possible in the side and Babel is a possibility for scoring.

How many goals have our CBs, Lucas and Mascherano scored between them under Rafa? That's not their job, but it doesn't help our scoring cause. At least Hyypia posed a serious threat in the opposition area, I think Skrtel and Mascherano have a goal apiece in a Liverpool shirt and Carra only scores every year of the donkey or something like that. Yet set-piece after set-piece we send them forward. Half the team perhaps should stay in their own half, ffs dump either Lucas or Mascherano and give Aquilani or anyone (Pacheco or someone) a go

by **JC_81** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:59 pm

I would have had no problem sending Pacheco out for tonight's game. At least he has a trick and a goal in him, which is more than a lot of our first teamers at the moment. It's not a premier league game, he's not likely to get the sh.it kicked out of him, we'll probably have a lot of possession because the opposition are cr@p and also we are severely limited in attacking options. I think it would have been a perfect game to introduce him. But he's not even in the squad.

We should win whatever team we put out tonight, my worry is that Lyon will lose and it won't matter anyway. Fiorentina seemed strong at home when we played them, even though we were awful that night they did look a decent outfit.

by **Rush Job** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:01 pm

heimdall wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Owzat wrote:The problem is Rafa is hung up on the two DM approach

The thing is, when he came to Liverpool Lucas wasn't primaril a defensive midfielder. He was a box to box player in Brazil who used to score goals regularly. Whether Rafa has coached this out of him I don't know but to be fair to the lad he has got in some really decent positions whilst playing for us but has fluffed his lines infront of goal. He's got into far more goalscoring positions than Alonso ever did for example.

true but Alonso created a hell of a lot more, my only gripe with Xabi was his lack of goals, otherwise he was and is a very good midfielder. Lucas brings nothing to the team at all.

Aye, I wonder how we will line up when Aquilani starts?
I`d move consider moving SG back and pushing Aquilani up behind Torres.

by **Ben Patrick** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:03 pm

john craig wrote:I would have had no problem sending Pacheco out for tonight's game. At least he has a trick and a goal in him, which is more than a lot of our first teamers at the moment. It's not a premier league game, he's not likely to get the sh.it kicked out of him, we'll probably have a lot of possession because the opposition are cr@p and also we are severely limited in attacking options. I think it would have been a perfect game to introduce him. But he's not even in the squad.

We should win whatever team we put out tonight, my worry is that Lyon will lose and it won't matter anyway. Fiorentina seemed strong at home when we played them, even though we were awful that night they did look a decent outfit.

Thats frustrating that about Pacheco.

He has been on fire for the reserves and is starting to reach an age where he needs to be getting on the bench and 5-10 minutes here and there to get him involved.
If he cant even make the squad when we only have Ngog and Kuyt then there is something seriously not right.

Just another of rafa's baffling decisions for me.

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:34 pm

The idea in having those 2 sitting in the centre of midfield is to enable the full-backs to surge forward without leaving us exposed. We can be as attacking as anyone, it's just that our attacks come from a different part of the pitch. As with everything else this season, injuries have hampered us terribly. We miss Johnson in an attacking sense big time.

I don't see United's central midfield creating a great deal either. The fact Fletcher is their most important player now says it all and he's not exactly what I'd call a "creative player". I don't rate Anderson or Carrick and Scholes can hardly run anymore.

by **JC_81** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:41 pm

stmichael wrote:The idea in having those 2 sitting in the centre of midfield is to enable the full-backs to surge forward without leaving us exposed. We can be as attacking as anyone, it's just that our attacks come from a different part of the pitch. As with everything else this season, injuries have hampered us terribly. We miss Johnson in an attacking sense big time.

Yeah that's well and good if you have Johnson piling forward and maybe Aurelio on the left who offers some threat going forward.

Unfortunately Insua struggles to have any impact in an attacking sense, apart from a wonder strike against Arsenal, and if Johnson doesn't play then either there's no attacking threat at all (Carragher) or the most cavalier full back play I've ever seen bordering on the ridiculous (Degen).

I still think something's got to give in the middle St Mike, Lucas and Mascherano are just too similar.

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