Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:43 am

Our formation doesnt seem to be working without the correct tools in place, tools as in torres and Gerrard playing just off him.

But Rafa is a stubborn old goat and wont change it because it has served him so well in the past, but then we had Alonso who gave us creativity from central midfield, the current one of Lucas, mascherano and Kuyt offer no creativity what so ever.

And back to the old question of two holding midfielders at home, would we have played that way against City had we had a fully fit squad? I would like to think we would not have.

My point is without Torres we are toothless in attack and leaking goals like a sieve is it time we changed the way we play? Or do we go back to the drawing board and rip it up and start again?

Our play looks laboured all huff and puff loads of ball retention in most games but no end product (The Birmingham game) was a perfect example of that.

Kuyt is knackered on the wing he spends most of his time in central midfield if Torres is not available then he has to play upfront and do less running and tracking back, we have become predictable again like when we had Crouch you could read us like a book, the same thing is happening now.

No other striker would come to wait his turn for Torres to be injured or have a rest and you cannot drop Torres either if we continue with this formation.(Not that we have any money for a striker)
I just think its time we had a Plan B & C, because this method is not working with the current players we have available.

Its back to the drawing board for me go back to basics, grind out 1-0 wins what ever till our confidence is back, we have forgotten how to defend after being so attacking last season.
And some of our players need the feckin hair dryer treatment starting with Skrtel.

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:26 am

Ciggy wrote:Our formation doesnt seem to be working without the correct tools in place, tools as in torres and Gerrard playing just off him.

But Rafa is a stubborn old goat and wont change it because it has served him so well in the past, but then we had Alonso who gave us creativity from central midfield, the current one of Lucas, mascherano and Kuyt offer no creativity what so ever.

And back to the old question of two holding midfielders at home, would we have played that way against City had we had a fully fit squad? I would like to think we would not have.

My point is without Torres we are toothless in attack and leaking goals like a sieve is it time we changed the way we play? Or do we go back to the drawing board and rip it up and start again?

Our play looks laboured all huff and puff loads of ball retention in most games but no end product (The Birmingham game) was a perfect example of that.

Kuyt is knackered on the wing he spends most of his time in central midfield if Torres is not available then he has to play upfront and do less running and tracking back, we have become predictable again like when we had Crouch you could read us like a book, the same thing is happening now.

No other striker would come to wait his turn for Torres to be injured or have a rest and you cannot drop Torres either if we continue with this formation.(Not that we have any money for a striker)
I just think its time we had a Plan B & C, because this method is not working with the current players we have available.

Its back to the drawing board for me go back to basics, grind out 1-0 wins what ever till our confidence is back, we have forgotten how to defend after being so attacking last season.
And some of our players need the feckin hair dryer treatment starting with Skrtel.

A few excellent points there Lynds and I pretty much agree with all of it. I think a "lets consider plan B" policy could be looked at pretty much accross the board right now, and it's hard to imagine us playing worse or getting worse results almost regardless of what we try.

Defensively I think it's clear that we need to do something about the set pieces. I'm a bit of a fan of the zonal stuff myself, but clearly it isn't working for us at the moment, or more to the point the players aren't able to make it work. The goal we conceded (Adebayors one) against City was a classic example. Skrtel seemed to me to be genuinely confused as to whether he should attack it, stay put or do neither. Course he opted for the latter, kind of ball watching and wandering before trying to put some kind of bizarre kung fu kick on it once he realised he'd fecked it up. We need to relieve the confusion. Man mark and the nearest fella to it attacks it like his life depends on it. We need a bit of bodies on the line throwing ourselves in the way back there, a bit more meanness all round.

Midfield is clearly a nonsense as is, and without stirring up the blanket throwers by mentioning their names, three of our midfield four are providing zero creativity. It's time to bite the bullet and get Gerrard back into central midfield, tell him to hold his runs a bit if he isn't fit. Kuyt is never a striker in a million years but at the moment he isn't a right sided midfielder either. Bung him up top with Aquilani in behind and at least he can run around a bit and make a nuisance of himself (to the opposition I mean).

Lets get Benayoun on the right and if injuries dictate it, lets even bung the Doss left side of midfield. Him and Insua between them ought to be able to defend alright, and both of them can put a ball in.

At the back, Carragher partners Agger if the Dane is fit. I totally agree we've got to stop all this 2-2 sh!t and get back to a few 1-0's. We've got to get Aquilani on the pitch, and we've got to find something from somewhere. Three or four more weeks of the bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip and we'll have a mountain to climb just to get fourth.

Time to try something different though, you're bang on the money Lynds.

by **made in UK** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:32 am

Good point Ciggy,

If for nothing else it would be worth a punt I reckon, I mean we couldn't fair any worse could we? To be fair to N'gog playing upfront on your own is a hard task in itself; playing upfront for Liverpool who at times lack service to their one striker becomes even more arduous. Rafa should give 'soft olly' Babel a run out up there with N'gog, we're not exactly blessed with an abundance of suitable strikers when Torres is out. I wouldn't even contemplate Voronin upfront but the lacklusture Babel would just pip it.

Reina

Johnson Carragher Agger(when fit) Aurelio(when fit)

Gerrard Aquallani(when fit) maschareno Yossi/Riera

N'Gog Babel (if Torres is out!)

Or

Reina

Johnson Carragher Agger Aurelio

Kuyt Gerrard Mash/Aqua Yossi/Riera

N'Gog Babel

We're conceeding silly goals and I personally don't think the midfield are as culpable as some of the others on here would have you believe. The defence is making 'school boy errors' and its their responsibilty to address this. I think we can afford to change the midfield around a bit to accomodate our lack of creativity upfield. There is no telling these formations are the answer to this problem it may be down to the personel we've got and their lack of flari/creativity/vision/skill etc etc. But its definately worth a bash IMO.

by **made in UK** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:48 am

Mick,

There is NO way I'd "bung" Kuyt upfront.

1) Its more painful to watch him play up there than it is to have teeth extracted.

2) We're in a big fecking slump, giving him the added pressure of finding the onion bag during a time like this is nonsensical. He struggled to find form (more importantly goals) when the team we're playing well.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:59 am

made in UK wrote:Mick,

There is NO way I'd "bung" Kuyt upfront.

1) Its more painful to watch him play up there than it is to have teeth extracted.

Actually he has just played for Holland upfront in their two games last week and looked more dangerous than he does when playing for us on the right.

I love Dirks work ethic but its not enough when we are struggling to win games, the usual suspects get the blame when things are not going our way Kuyt & Lucas, neither do much wrong but they should not be in our starting 11 every week.

Kuyts a big game player and does well in big games but against mediocre opitition he doesnt offer much on the right, and he needs a rest badly think hes just played 180 minutes for Holland last week aswell.

Another thing ive noticed this season all our players seem to be getting in the way of each other whats that all about?
Babels injury came from this situtaion, as did Carra and Skrtel against Spurs and Lucas is for ever going into a challenge with one of our players.

And what really p!sses me off is when gerrards playing they all want to feed him the ball instead of taking some initive themselves, I know he's the best in the world but FFS step up to the mark yourselves and do something on your own.
When it breaks down Gerrard gives them abuse and their heads drop, it wouldnt happen so much if they actually had the balls not to relay on him all the time.

Step up to the plate you gang of sh!thouses.

by **made in UK** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:12 am

Actually he has just played for Holland upfront in their two games last week and looked more dangerous than he does when playing for us on the right.

Thats the problem though he doesn't look dangerous upfront for us. We've been there and agonisingly seen it fail for extensive periods of time. Lets not go back there again hey?

Anyway its better to get back to the 'plan B' topic (its better discussion). The Kuyt one has been done to death and people will start blowing blood vessels if it continues on in here.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:30 am

made in UK wrote:
Actually he has just played for Holland upfront in their two games last week and looked more dangerous than he does when playing for us on the right.

Thats the problem though he doesn't look dangerous upfront for us.

Maybe because Holland play bloody good attacking football theres a thought :idea

.

Once everyone is fit i want to see the team I posted the other day and I still stick by it, they are the best what we have available to us, so there is no excuse.

We are currently playing with 7 defensive minded players and conceeding goals like a sieve at set pieces whats the point? seriously?

the shackles need to come off again like last season and let the players go for it, they have never looked happier playing the football we did last season, let them do it again I say.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 am

Ok.. this looks a bit mad, but I think we need a big kick and a big change to alter our form / luck
Reina
Kelly. Carra. Agger. Aurelio.
Johson. Gerrard. Mascha. Reira
Benayoun.
Torres

And when Mascha goes in Jan, Aquilani should be fit to step in

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:54 pm

bigmick wrote:Midfield is clearly a nonsense as is, and without stirring up the blanket throwers by mentioning their names, three of our midfield four are providing zero creativity. It's time to bite the bullet and get Gerrard back into central midfield, tell him to hold his runs a bit if he isn't fit.

And despite this supposed lack of creativity we're still the 3rd top scorers in the league. Creativity wasn't the problem the other day. It was the inability to keep the ball that was our downfall. You can't create if you repeatedly give the ball away. Having said this, I don't see the point of having Aquilani on the bench if you're not going to use him.

It is a bit of a conundrum though having two holding midfielders when we are scoring ok but leaking goals like a sieve. I'm more concerned about the lack of cover the defence is getting from the midfield rather than their lack of creativity going forward. Having two holding midfielders you would think that would give the defence extra cover but it dosen't seem to be materialising.

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:32 pm

I don't see why since we have 2 natrual players IE Babel and Kuyt we don't play a real 4-3-3 It makes sense like Barca do.

With just 1 DM like this

RB CB CB LB

DM
AM AM
RF CF LF

Fill in who ever is fit.

by **heimdall** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:44 pm

Dazzer wrote:I don't see why since we have 2 natrual players IE Babel and Kuyt we don't play a real 4-3-3 It makes sense like Barca do.

With just 1 DM like this

RB CB CB LB

DM
AM AM
RF CF LF

Fill in who ever is fit.

That's definitely worth a go in any case we HAVE to try something new, what you are doing is not working RAFA, wake the feck up will YA!!

Stevie in the middle is a no brainer and has been all season to everybody except the genius who is Rafa. What the holy feck does he see in Lucas that nobody else can see, maybe it's another one of these 5 year missions. :no

Upfront I'd try one of the youngsters, give Pachecho a go or one of the other 100 younsters who have been signed, they cannot be any worse than Wash, they may even surprise us, remember Micael Owen on his debut, who the hell was expecting that.

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:51 pm

Well if we had fit teams god I hope so soon I would play these players I think this is system Rafa should be aiming at because we don't have the players for 4-5-1 with Alonso gone.

Riena
Johnson Carra Agger Insua <--- sticking with young lad as he will grow
Masch
Aqua Gerrard
Kuyt Torres Babel

Way this system works is Gerrard and Aqua have to move out wide and let babel and Kuyt work off the front man and Babel and Kuyt have to work the space between thier CB and RB/LB.

Reason the 4-3-3 is such a good tactic if worked right is because its ery hard to mark up to any player because they all attack different points in the defence at each stage of the attack.

IE the AM start central and move out wide and the RF/LF start out side and move inwards and as Barca have shown over and over agian scoring goals is never a problem.

by **Ben Patrick** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:00 pm

heimdall wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I don't see why since we have 2 natrual players IE Babel and Kuyt we don't play a real 4-3-3 It makes sense like Barca do.

With just 1 DM like this

RB CB CB LB

DM
AM AM
RF CF LF

Fill in who ever is fit.

That's definitely worth a go in any case we HAVE to try something new, what you are doing is not working RAFA, wake the feck up will YA!!

Stevie in the middle is a no brainer and has been all season to everybody except the genius who is Rafa. What the holy feck does he see in Lucas that nobody else can see, maybe it's another one of these 5 year missions.

Upfront I'd try one of the youngsters, give Pachecho a go or one of the other 100 younsters who have been signed, they cannot be any worse than Wash, they may even surprise us, remember Micael Owen on his debut, who the hell was expecting that.

Regarding Michael Owen, the answer is, almost everyone.

Anyone who had seen the kid play knew that he was miles above everyone at every level he played.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:24 pm

its much easier to play the formation game when you can pick from everybody. I also think it would me much easier if we could just nail on and say we know for sure that x,y,z are out for 4 months and a,b,c are fit. But instead what we have is half the squad half fit, which does nobody any good. Doesn't seem like anybody is ever training, and then some people are training forever but still not match fit, as soon as people come back they reinjure what was wrong.

I try and follow the injuries pretty closely, and I still have no clue what the situation is like

I think someone who has really shown just how valuable he is by not playing is Johnson. Well he shows it when he plays too, which is why the difference in a johnson XI and a johnsonless XI is big.

Someone else who we have missed is Riera, who has barely played, and not gotten anything near a run of games to get the season started. Also Aurelio has barely played, and when he has a lot of time it hasn't been at LB, which really hurts because Insua is getting found out a bit this year

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:39 pm

as for the formation business. Here is one of the catch 22s that I see:

Torres is the only striker good enough to play up front on his own

Even if you say that N'gog is servicable on a good day (some wont even say this), there certainly aren't two strikers good enough to justify a spot in an XI if Torres isn't one of them.

what are Babel and Kuyt? right now it seems like they are 2 crappy wingers and 2 crappy strikers rolled into 2. I am not a kuyt hater but more and more the only thing he is bringing to the table is in the industry, along with the normal frustration.

and although there is a lot left to be desired in the attacking dept., where we are losing games in in defense

I think one thing that could help our defense would be to (if both fit) play Johnson on the left and Kelly on the right. If agger was one of the CBs that would be 3 really quality athletes back there, with a lot of skill on the ball to boot. Then throw in carra to direct the traffic, and we might have something.

I think we need to go to the (south) eastern european centre half store and trade in Skrtel for a better model. Yea, the big greek isn't great, but he isn't supposed to be, he is exactly what we paid for, and probably more dominant in the air than I expected. When he was bought, Skrtel was our most expensive defensive signing (only to be broken by the Doss), I would have expected more.

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