Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:47 am

maguskwt wrote:
GYBS wrote:Kuyt's importance to Liverpool is illustrated in that he is only two goals away from equalling Reds legend Ian Rush's tally of 14 European Cup goals.

where have all the Kuyt bashers gone?

Oh I'm still around, although I was never a "basher", more of a realist. When he played up front he was absolutely terrible, shocking, awful and I never did try and pretend otherwise like some did. Now he's on the right he does a decent job, although he isn't the best right mifielder in the Premiership as some claim.

His European record in comparison to Rush means nothing. Rush was quadruple the player Kuyt is in every single regard possible (even in running around a lot) and Rush played in the European Cup. In that tournament, you didn't play so many matches and you only played against real champions. In fairness to Kuyt, if the rules were still the same he'd never have even played in it.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:27 am

Rafa on Kuyt :-

"We've been trying to find a top goalscorer in Europe. That's difficult, but we knew Kuyt was one such player. He's been playing well for a long time, and he's someone I'm sure will bring a quality to the team. Sometimes you see a top class player who may find it hard to adapt to the Premiership, but in his case he has the work rate, game intelligence and goalscoring ability to make him succeed in England.

We needed someone who would be different to Bellamy and Robbie, but maybe similar in a way to Crouch. Kuyt can not only play as a target man, he can play as the second striker, on the right or on the left. For sure, he's not someone we'll use as a winger, but he can play alongside Bellamy, Fowler, Crouch and Luis and give us many options.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:47 am

s@int wrote:I thought I would post something cheerful and full of optimism before we play Chelsea

In all honesty Cascarino is in the same camp as 90% of the British media in that they don't have much if any time for Benitez. Looking back I think much of that is down to the way Rafa conducted himself when he first arrived in England, and the perception seems to have been in and amongst the media that he was arrogant, and in many ways disrespected English football in much of his behaviour.

Funnily enough, he has somewhat turned the corner these days in that he seemingly no longer believes that you can put out practically a reserve team against some opponents and still cruise Home. even lower division opponents will give you a tough game and in some cases beat you if you feck around too much, as Dagenham and Redbridge, Burnley and Barnsley showed.

I think it probably wasn't just the rotation though, it was the interviews that went with it along with the unspoken implication that English football was in some respects living in the dark ages. There were some unfortunate interviews, with managers such as Neil Warnock belittled, "we knew he was a bad manager etc" (he isn't, he's done fantastic jobs at many of his clubs without a budget)and an insinuation that anyone who didn't see things Rafa's way was a fool.

As i say, I think he's toned things down latterly. That applies both to some of the more extreme methodology and also to the interview technique. On the question of the interviews, how much of it was due to an actual arrogance and how much was due to the fact he was just learning English I guess we will never know, the media aren't ever going to forgive him though it doesn't look like.

The contrast between Rafa's approach and some other foreign managers who came into English Football praising it up and actually adopting an English style and methodology couldn't be greater though. Strangely enough the manager(s) i'm thinking of who went down that route were more successful too, although that could be just coincidence.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:49 am

I think it probably wasn't just the rotation though

No it's not, these days even Capello says that rotation is not necessary, but mandatory. :;):

Even an old dinosaur like Ferguson uses them, and sometimes, with strange selections. FFS, even you don't usually mention any more and kept the thread quiet, rotation is accepted England wide

Now in all seriousness, and admitting the evidence that Rafa might have got wrong some interviews or sentences like everybody, and admitting he has done mistakes, I don't think that explains why Cascarino attacks with so much fury our team. For starters, if you want to slag a manager, you don't slag half the players of that squad. The way he talks about Johnson? the lad is impressive. Not getting right the name of Fabio, is something forgiveable in a forum, but not for someone who pretends to write in a paper for all the nation.

My point, to slag Rafa, he didn't need to slag half the squad, and even less players that are doing remarkably well.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:55 am

Sabre wrote:
I think it probably wasn't just the rotation though

No it's not, these days even Capello says that rotation is not necessary, but mandatory.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that players couldn't play every single week throughout the season, nobody with any sense ever said they could. Equally though, nobody with any sense could fail to see if they were being honest that we took it ridiculous levels in the past.

That wasn't really my point though, and I agree it goes deeper than just rotation. Rafa didn't revolutionalise English football, people were resting players long before rafa arrived on these shores.

I genuinely believe there is/was a feeling (rightly or wrongly) within football that Rafa was disrespectful to the English game and some of the things it stood for whan he first arrived. Slagging off the likes of Warnock who has dragged many a team up through the divisions with no financial support wasn't a wise move in your first season or so, and there were other instances which riled people. I guess it would only be the same if Ferguson went to La Liga and started implying that some of the old Spanish stalwarts were useless, people wouldn't like it.

Mourinho and Wenger did it right, get the media on your side and then it makes the whole thing easier. As I said earlier, how much of it was due to lack of command of the language in the early days as well as the clture none of us will ever know. I'm convinced though that our manager isn't liked amongst the English establishment, that's either by the managers or the press. Course you could say "who gives a feck anyway" and you might well be right, I'm just calling it as I see it.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:07 am

I guess it would only be the same if Ferguson went to La Liga and started implying that some of the old Spanish stalwarts were useless, people wouldn't like it.

It was not lack of english, it was lack of diplomacy. Just like when Toshack came to my country to say a couple of truths. He also ruffled some feathers. Whether that's good or bad for the club, depends on the case. Toshack ruffled feathers in San Sebastian and improved the club. Toshack ruffled feathers in madrid and he got sácked. The debate would be whether ruffling feathers or a more diplomat approach is the way to go. I'm not sure on that front.

So I can't say that you're wrong in that front, probably Rafa could have done better to have a more friendly media, but, that doesn't mean that when the media gives stick to Liverpool it's because of Rafa not being a diplomat.

I remember perfectly well how when I joined this forum the articles talked about the top 3, and not the top 4 and we didn't get exactly respect out of some journalists. In this case aswell, Cascarino gives stick to players, if that's down to Rafa not being diplomat at the beginning, I doubt it very much. Meaning, I can perfectly see Andy Gray giving stick to Liverpool regardless Rafa being a diplomat or Rafa rotating less. He hates Liverpool.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:37 am

Yes no denying Andy Gray. They could have given the managers job to Henry Kissinger and Gray would still hate us. Equally, it's extremely arguable whether it's detrimental to us or not, having the press on us all the time. I agree with you Sabre when you say that, Ferguson for may years used a "the World is against us" way of building team spirit. In those circumstances it can even be a plus.

I'm not sure though that some of Rafa's things were a lack of diplomacy, I just think he was wrong. Warnock is not a bad manager, he's been a bloody good one over the years. He took my home town club Scarborough to the Conference title with an extended unbeaten run. He took them into the football league for the first time in their history and had them at the top of the league at Christmas before Notts County came knocking. They were a much bigger proposition, so nobody blamed him when he left. Scarborough fel by the wayside inevitably, and Warnock took Notts County into the Premiership, turning down the Chelsea job in the process. Later, he took Sheffield United into the Premiership as well. It's not lacking diplomacy to say he's a bad manager, it's lacking knowledge and respect for his career.

Equally, Rafa's responses to some of the ex players who have voiced opinions has left a little to be desired. Rather than a "well they're entitled to their opinion I guess" he was very dismissive of their opinions and credentials, despite some of them being Liverpool multi title winners. That may have been undiplomatic granted, but it was also very unwise.

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:39 pm

GYBS wrote:The Real Zaragoza new-boy also criticised Dirk Kuyt, who took Pennant's place in Benitez's side, labelling the Dutchman as a failed forward who was accommodated in the team because of his high transfer fee.

Kuyt £10m
Pennant £6.7m

Big F in difFerence. The reason Kuyt gets support from his manager and accommodated is because he has the right attitude not a shight attitude. Besides, if Pennant had been good enough then Rafa wouldn't have made such an accommodation

re the fact that Kuyt hasn't won more than one trophy. So what? It's a TEAM sport. Does that mean players for teams that don't win trophies are cr ap and those that play for the big four and occaisional trophy winning sides are all superstars? Is Crouch better than Torres? How does their domestic trophy count compare? Same for Bent, Defoe, Keane........................

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:55 pm

Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:The Real Zaragoza new-boy also criticised Dirk Kuyt, who took Pennant's place in Benitez's side, labelling the Dutchman as a failed forward who was accommodated in the team because of his high transfer fee.

Kuyt £10m
Pennant £6.7m

Big F in difFerence. The reason Kuyt gets support from his manager and accommodated is because he has the right attitude not a shight attitude. Besides, if Pennant had been good enough then Rafa wouldn't have made such an accommodation

re the fact that Kuyt hasn't won more than one trophy. So what? It's a TEAM sport. Does that mean players for teams that don't win trophies are cr ap and those that play for the big four and occaisional trophy winning sides are all superstars? Is Crouch better than Torres? How does their domestic trophy count compare? Same for Bent, Defoe, Keane........................

It does if he is a fkn jinx

We had just won 2 cups in two years when he joined us, then won the charity shield just before he joined us........we have won nothing since. At his previous clubs they both won a cup within a short time ...... OF HIM LEAVING.

Can you name another player that has played regularly for 6 years for a top 4 club (both in Holland and England)and a top ranked National team and won NOTHING!

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