Liverpool FC Forum

[Sir Roger]

Wow
Pennant can talk
He likes Rafa doesnt he?

[taff]

Pennant forhot to mention the drinking and terrible attitude that the press picked up on but never Rafa the guy who was his boss who saw him every day.

He had a great chance but the majority of the blame has to go to him.  I would take severe offence with any fan who took his side over Rafas.  Ok he did some rotating and played SG on the left wing in one game but if those things blind anybody to the good he has done I feel genuinely sorry for those people as it must be absolutely awful to see Rafa in charge.

Maybe we should listen to the likes of Penant and not look to improve in every game but just play it off the cuff and hope for the best

[account deleted by request]

I think most of the article can be dismissed as the usual bitter ex-player bashes boss shock horror story. The thing that caught my attention and whicjh I think may have some truth in it was this

"When I was on the touchline all I could hear was Benitez giving me directions.

"At times I'd think 'why don't you just put the batteries in and turn me into a robot'."

But he is his own man again in Zaragoza, living in a plush apartment block in the centre of town and picking up Spanish tit-bits from his new team-mates. He loves the laidback lifestyle after three years of listening to Benitez barking orders.

"Sometimes I just wanted to play my natural game, but there were so many instructions: how to go forward, how to defend.

"He has been through so many players, so many strikers, so many midfielders that he takes the best attributes out of them.

Especially when you remember what Queresma said :-

Quaresma: You must be talking about Liverpool? Well yes their representative came to me, and we spoke. They did not reject me, I believe they wanted to kind of change my role; they wanted me to be less expressive on the pitch and be more aggressive.

If Liverpool had come to me and said they wanted me to be me, I would of moved, they are doing something special and their fans are incredible, I know of no other team with fans who care so much. I remember Fernando Torres scoring against us and the noise was defening. They were incredible.

[taff]

Its wrong to be blind to criticism of Rafa but it is his style.  It wouldnt be mine if I was in charge but the basic facts are that we are much stronger than we were when he joined.

You could also post up SG's interview where he goes on about that attention to detail but in a positive way, any player that listens to Rafa does seem to improve.

Regarding Quaresma, we have to be more aggressive and we have to work hard for each other would be my point to that.  Or would you rather have skillful players watching others do the work. 

IMO Rafa has put us on a road of his choosing and that means that not every player will fit in but so be it.  The debate then is whether you think he has improved the club and is going to improve it further or that his style of management simply will not work. 

Or we could go on about a game a few years ago where he did something daft, or alternatively we could go on about Man utd being thumped in Old Trafford.  IMO I think the good far outweighs the bad moments and there have been bad moments, but I also think that we are far more respected these days and feared.  To go on and on and on about odd mistakes is getting tedious and IMO a little bit ridiculous, I would honestly respect somebody who just said I want this guy out than alluding to it and waiting to see which way the wind blows with comments like I hope we win etc as a safety net.  I defend Rafa because I believe in him not to have an argument its simply I DO believe in the guy.  But he has to be criticised as do all men, but villified and hounded no.

[account deleted by request]

good post Taff

Regrettably I no longer have similar belief and would rather put my faith in the exceptional talents of Gerrard and Torres. As I have said previously I think he has done a reasonable job..... not a great job or bad job. Things would be much simpler for me if he had! I am torn between the progress that we HAVE made and the fact that imo he makes too many mistakes. 

I believe the reason we have failed to win anything in the last 3 years has been due more to Rafa's stubborness than any serious lack of talent in the squad or lack of money to bring the right players in. For me he makes too many errors that cost us points and games, and tries too hard to control games from the sidelines instead of letting the players do what they do best.

We are all over the moon about the latest performance against Hull and no doubt Rafa deserves a lot of credit for it and the way the team performed. Similarly when we play badly or he has played Crouch on the wing or Skrtel full back or made 5 changes to the team he should take the responsibility for that too.       

Maybe I have seen too many false dawns mate, but I remember us finishing second in the league and above the mancs two years before Rafa came. Last year I have no doubts that we could ,should and would have won the league but for some silly errors, some bad buys and not "going for it" when we had the chance. 

My fear is that if we don't win the league soon we may be in the position of having to replace players that are almost irreplaceable.

Sadly you cannot judge a manager by what he will do, but only by what he has done.

[Sabre]

It's funny, the other day Heraldo de Aragon asked Pennant why he didn't enter the box more in Zaragoza, and he said the coach asked him to be stuck to the line and cross. Pennant, no matter where, always have an explanation for the bad aspects of his game that it's not him.

He's right that Rafa gives a lot of intructions, and he's right that made ALonso's head in and he didn't see things eye to eye. But that's where the comparison ends, because Pennant, isn't playing somewhere in the middle of Barcelona and Madrid in a mid level club (promoted yes, but stronger than Almerias and Xerezs) by chance: that's his true level.

And it's a pity, because I think he had more potential than the one he's shown. I missed self criticism in his Liverpool era, I miss self criticism now. Perhaps with age he'll thank Rafa the chance someone gave him to prove himself in a top club, when he realises why he spent the rest of his career in mid clubs.

I agree that giving too much instructions can put pressure on a player, but any player knows football won't be robotics never. There will always be space and chances for decissions in a game, no matter you play under Rafa or anyone. It sounded to me a bit like excuses his words.

As for the crossing ability, I for one preffer Johnson's or Insua's, or Gerrard's when he's in that part of the pitch. Even Aurelio's but I admit he hasn't shown much of it in Liverpool -- like Pennant.

[taff]

I agree with the sentiment of your post if not your personal views.  I too remember the false dawns but I genuinely think we did not over achieve last year just a solidifying of the work Rafa has done and I think we will get better.

However I have to state that he baffles me and angers me at times and I suppose I would be classed as a happy clappy, although I dont really approve of the class system 

And Ive been around for long enough to know that its about LFC not Rafa or whoever is the temporary custodian of the club.  And this means in real talk TROPHIES.  I have genuine faith and belief but the thought of trophyless progress does send a shudder down the old spine.

Life was a lot easier in the 80's, fear of Aids, heroin, nuclear war and skin tight pinstriped jeans.  Oh and hammering everybody whilst laughing at the circus that was Man Utd

[taff]

Sorry SAbre I replied to Saints post but you snuck yours in 

[Sabre]

No problem

[bigmick]

Rafa will continue to split opinion there's no doubt in my mind about that. Some things are beyond dispute, but not many.

Absolutely beyond dispute (IMHO anyway) is that the team we have today is better than the one he inherited. The debate is whether it's improved by enough considering how much money has been thrown at it, and whether it has happened quickly enough. Some think it has, somethink it hasn't.

Another thing which is hard to argue too much about is trophies. You either win them or you don't, and we haven't. Three years is a while, and we need to start winning stuff fairly soon I should think. Great managers win trophies when they manage clubs like Liverpool, another thing which is beyond dispute IMHO.

[Igor Zidane]

Rafa will continue to split opinion there's no doubt in my mind about that. Some things are beyond dispute, but not many.

Absolutely beyond dispute (IMHO anyway) is that the team we have today is better than the one he inherited. The debate is whether it's improved by enough considering how much money has been thrown at it, and whether it has happened quickly enough. Some think it has, somethink it hasn't.

Another thing which is hard to argue too much about is trophies. You either win them or you don't, and we haven't. Three years is a while, and we need to start winning stuff fairly soon I should think. Great managers win trophies when they manage clubs like Liverpool, another thing which is beyond dispute IMHO.

Pretty much agree with that mate. So the question is . Are we back in it?

[bigmick]

Rafa will continue to split opinion there's no doubt in my mind about that. Some things are beyond dispute, but not many.

Absolutely beyond dispute (IMHO anyway) is that the team we have today is better than the one he inherited. The debate is whether it's improved by enough considering how much money has been thrown at it, and whether it has happened quickly enough. Some think it has, somethink it hasn't.

Another thing which is hard to argue too much about is trophies. You either win them or you don't, and we haven't. Three years is a while, and we need to start winning stuff fairly soon I should think. Great managers win trophies when they manage clubs like Liverpool, another thing which is beyond dispute IMHO.

Pretty much agree with that mate. So the question is . Are we back in it?

I don't think we were ever "out of it" Igor, but had Chelsea not lost at Wigan, defeat at Stamford Bridge would have killed us off I think (which is what you're referring to I guess ).

As it is though, despite one or two people jumping on my pessimism/realism on the back of Chelsea losing, I wouldn't quite be celebrating just yet. We're still in a situation where defeat at Stamford Bridge would see us six points behind Chelsea, and in all probability six points behind the Mancs as well (unless Sunderland can "inexplicably" get a result at Old Trafford). Would we be out of it at that point? No, but we wouldn't exactly be in it either.

I actually think we'll get a result there as I've said a few times, and I still think we need to.

[Owzat]

If you can get back in it, then you are still in it. You're only "out of it" when you can't possibly win, it might be difficult to win the league from 10-15 points behind the leaders, but not impossible with plenty of points left to play for.

[taff]

Regarding the Chelsea game then even if we lose we are not out of it as its still early but it does put pressure on getting positive results in the other big four fixtures.  And there is far less room for draws or bad days at the office.

But in a weird way I enjoy being written off as we just get on with it quietly although somebody tell Torres to calm down as he might attract a bid bigger than Ronaldos

[Owzat]

Just seem to be so few draws this season, I think I worked out four draws in 66 games which is pretty low and may distort the shaping up of the top of the table.