Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:50 pm

Ok i have my dates mixed up as it was the year after liverpool arsenal in cl , but less of the insults ok was making up anything just got my facts wrong ok - happy enough to hold my hand up but still only one time i ever remember crouch playing left . i am getting mixed up when torres was moved out left in the arsenal cl game .

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:54 pm

I haven't insulted anyone ? Just questioned the veracity of others stories.

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:59 pm

Ok will rephrase it and say less of the little digs - instead of the whole red riding and making stories just come out nice and easily and say - "sorry gybs i think you might have it wrong - is it not this game etc "

Now wouldnt that just be easy and less confrontational ?

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:02 pm

no problem ...... you are back on ignore.

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:03 pm

Oh lovely to know and very mature of you saint .

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:15 pm

taff wrote:what is your overall analysis of Rafa since he joined the club.

I already gave my view on Rafa on a previous page Taff

I have been torn for about 3 years now on Rafa. I think he has done some great things at Liverpool but also made some serious errors as well. I honestly believe we could get better, but I think we could do a lot worse as well.

I think we may all just as well accept he is going to be here for the next few years and either try to make the best of it, or enjoy it while it lasts (depending on your outlook )

I think we have progressed much slower than we need have, and IMO we could have challenged for the title much earlier than we have. I also don't think he has made the best use of the players at his disposal at times.

On the positive side he has made some good signings, and we seem to have eventually reached a level were we can challenge for the title.

Given my choice I wouldn't have given him a five year contract, but I think if we had given him the two year contract that I thought he deserved he may well have walked.

So I am not a Rafa lover, but I am also not a Rafa hater, just someone stuck in the middle.

Further to that I would add that I think he makes a few too many mistakes that cost us points, but hopefully he has learned a few harsh lessons now and won't make as many in the future.

Hopeful but still not convinced :cool:

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:29 pm

taff wrote:Ok apart from Ngog on the bench and one game with Crouch on the left oh and the time he sat on the floor for the penalty shoot out, what is your overall analysis of Rafa since he joined the club.

Nitpicking things will just increase the arguments

Think overall he has done a very good job for us .

CL - he has done excellent work - turning us into the team i think no one wants to face in the knockout - over the last 5 years i think we have a record only matched by AC Milan

Prem - done good in the prem - in some years has had to sacrifice results towards the end of the season to concentrate in the CL once we had confirmed we had qualified for the CL for the next season - up until last season our best finish was when we went out early in the knockout stages . We would of loved to been closer to challenging but i dont think we had the squad capable of challenging until last season - unfortuantely too many draws against lower teams scuppered us - thats down to both the manager at times and the players as well . Last season he went for both and nearly did it - this hopefully we can make the next step - yes its been long but we are closey now than we have been since Kenny left all those years ago. thats down to rafa and the players brought in

Cups - did well in cc first year when he played a stronger team since then havent done well playing fringe players hopefully will do better this season

FA Cup - the one season we did well was the year we went out of the cl early so he could play first team in the FA Cup.

I still dont think we have the squad to challenge on all fronts but we can certainly go for the league and cl or cup.

Rafa is always learning and trying things and trying to improve and does what he thinks will get us wins and results - been let down a number of times by individual errors and mistakes and sometimes by poor choice of players .

by **Sabre** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:35 pm

taff wrote:
Sabre wrote:That was a balanced and good post Taff. I read that you heard rumours about Rafa being dictatorial, could you tell me more about that? Meaning, dictatorial as in...

A family member is very friendly with one of the guys who was sacked in the summer from the academy in the overhaul.

He said that Benitez is dictatorial but its not meant in a bad way just how it is kind of way. He also said that if he gets it right he is a hero but to get control of everything means that now he has to deliver = trophies and players coming through

It wasnt exactly earth shattering to speak with him as Rafa gives that impression anyway, IMO I was pleased that the buck now truly stops with him in all club matters. If you look at it from a impartial point of view IMO Benitez succeeds then the club succeeds, Benitez fails then we simply get somebody better

Cheers, I wanted to clarify it in order to compare it to what Aiestaran said here about his Liverpool past. He avoided saying a bad word of Rafa, but you could intimate that more or less his problem with Rafa is the one you describe, he wants things his way.

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:47 pm

I'm surprised so many people can't remember the Reading game to be honest. It created much controversy at the time not so much for the fact that it did finally confirm that Peter Crouch wasn't that good on the left wing, but more for the fact that at 3-1 down we conceded defeat and withdrew Torres and Gerrard. I think this was to keep both players fit and available for the Champions League game during the week.

Many said at the time that they had never seen a Liverpool team concede defeat in such a way, but I don't know about that. Certainly what was more disturbing from my point of view at the time was the ridiculous team selection (and it was absolutely ridiculous) followed by the spectre of watching players literally looking quizically at each other as they had absolutely no idea what was going on. Crouch on the left wing though took the biscuit, a truly incredible concept.

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:56 pm

I guess most people dont remember as it happened so long ago and havent got it etched into their memory so they can bring it out on the odd occasion when being critical off rafa - but as it may off happened nearly 2 years ago and we have moved on quite a bit since and i guess people would rather not drag up stuff that happened years ago . I guess to some people it wasnt really that memorable or something and if it did annoy them at the time they have got over it by now .

I do remember thou that torres scored a hat trick against reading in one game thou - cant remember which to be exact .

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:10 pm

GYBS wrote:I do remember thou that torres scored a hat trick against reading in one game thou - cant remember which to be exact .

He did, there was an interesting story behind that one funnily enough as well.

The week before we played Pompey Away. We arrived at Fratton Park in fine fettle, but in the "farce of Fratton Park" inexplicably Rafa decided to leave BOTH Torres and Gerrard on the bench. unsurprisingly, Pompey gleefully ripped us to shreds but we clung on, before proving those that had said "but they're both injured" to be talking b0ll0cks as they came on as late subs. God knows how, but we scraped a 0-0 draw.

There was much controversy about the selection, but in the following league game in order to counter the fact that Birmingham defend deep/to prove himself right, Rafa decided to leave Torres on the bench again. In the "Birmingham between the lines balloney" Torres looked on as we headbutted the side of the bus repeatedly but with ever decreasing force, until finally giving in quite dizzy at the experience. Despite in Rafa's immortal words being "more suited to playing between the lines" :laugh:

Voronin couldn't provide the spark, or indeed anything as I recall, and we drew 0-0.

Having not played for a couple of weeks, it was becoming clear that Torres really needed a run out of some description. The Carling Cup game at Reading was deemed to be ideal, and in a pivotal game for the young striker he played, scored a hat-trick and got seven shades of sh!t kicked out of him.

I'm not sure what the point of the whole excercise was, but it did at least prove that Torres was pretty important to our team. As a footnote, the "delayed Gazelle" aspect to the story was as usual proved to be nonsense shortly afterwards, as Torres inevitbaly got injured. We were also knocked out of the Carling Cup shortly afterwards too.

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:15 pm

[quote="GYBS"]I guess most people dont remember as it happened so long ago and havent got it etched into their memory so they can bring it out on the odd occasion when being critical off rafa - but as it may off happened nearly 2 years ago and we have moved on quite a bit since and i guess people would rather not drag up stuff that happened years ago . I guess to some people it wasnt really that memorable or something and if it did annoy them at the time they have got over it by now .

It's a strange post this one. In a thread which talks about Rafa's 300 games in charge and asks you for an opinion, it's surely only natural that people will give an opinion.

If one of those opinions is that in the past we may have over-rotated, it's not unreasonable for others to ask for examples, ask why you think like you do. Surely it then follows that you give an answer.

It would afterall be the hieght of silliness on my part to respond to your claims on kuyts behalf as a striker to simply say "but we've moved on since then". That's why I wouldn't do it.

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:19 pm

I have no idea mick - like i said i dont remember every single little detail of two years ago nor do i remember things just to bring up again a couple years down the line when rafa is getting a bit of a negative outlook . Im sure whatever rafa did back then he did for a reason - but im pretty sure im confident our manager didnt do something just to "prove himself right " as you suggest cause no matter what people think of him i dont believe he would ever put himself before the club . But thats just my opinion on the person as i think he has morals a lot higher than doing things "to prove himself right" and i also think thats a pretty damn hard claim to justify or back up .

by **GYBS** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:20 pm

Maybe i remember the good things about this club mick -thats what i like to concentrate on but thats just me - im a positive person in regards the team i support and always will be .

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:35 pm

GYBS wrote:Maybe i remember the good things about this good mick -thats what i like to concentrate on but thats just me - im a positive person in regards the team i support and always will be .

So am I positive too mate, but I'm a realist as well. I'm positive about Rafa because since he's going to be our manager for the next few years I hope he turns things around.

Now I know some people will say "Turn things around FFS

" but this is the bit that makes me laught to be honest. Because people like me say that not winning any trophies for three seasons isn't successful enough, that we want more success than that, and we're negative. when I said THREE SEASONS AGO that the team we had at the time was good enough to challenge for the title (and I was absolutely alone on here when I said that) I was called negative. I was called negative by people who said it was impossible for us to challenge for the title as we were outspent by Chelsea and the Mancs (presumeably then that means EVER). So I was saying we were good enough to challenge for the title, they were saying we weren't, but it was me who was negative :laugh:

, answers on a postcard would be appreciated.

I said the team should have won the title last season. I said it during the season numerous times that we will NEVER HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF WINNING IT THAT THE ONE WE CURRENTLY HAVE, and yet I'm negative.

Realistic, and negative aren't the same thing. I've said an FA Cup four years ago, and a Champions League five years ago aren't what I would consider "success" in English football for a manager of Liverpool Football Club. I think we should aim higher, I think we can do better, but I'm negative.

Lets be honest here. I'm negative not because my aspirations for the team and club don't match anybody elses. I'm not negative because I don't believe in the players (because I do), or because I don't believe in the team (because I do), I'm "negative" because on threads which are about the manager I insist on pointing out the reality of his record. I don't worship at the alter of the manager like some, and because of that I'm "negative".

Realism and negativity aren't the same thing though. Lose at Stamford Bridge and IMHO we will be out of the title race. Not negative, just realistic. The answer of course is not to lose. The even better answer may have been to take pre season games more seriously, to play your strongest team in the last couple so as to avoid looking like a pub team on an end of season jolly up in the first couple of matches of the season, then you wouldn't so desperately need to avoid defeat. When some of us said so at the time though, we were "just being negative". "it's a pre season game FFS, I don't fecking believe this place" etc etc etc.

Negative doesn't even come into it. Be positve about this one because I certainly am. If we don't gain points on Chelsea in the meantime, going 9 points behind them in the event of us losing at Stamford Bridge would be the end of our title aspirations. Not negative, just realistic.

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