Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:01 am

We all know that this season defenders in the league are starting to have a gameplan for Torres. This gameplan basically involves playing it very physical, harrassing him non-stop, fustrating him and kicking the :censored:

out of him. The
West Ham game last night especially was very physical not just for Torres but for the whole team. While watching I can just feel the team's fustration because they were being tackled non-stop. West Ham was going all out to fustrate us and disrupt our flow and IMO they succeeded. They probably watched our game against Burnley and found out that if we were given the space and time we can put 3-4 goals pass them without any reply. Parker's tackles on Torres and Gerrard were especially crunching and both of them could have easily ended up on the injury table. This is where I'm glad we have players like Mascherano and Kuyt who are hard as nail and can respond back physically. Glenn Johnson, Insua and even Lucas managed to stand their own ground. However, players like Benayoun and Riera are fragile and players like Gerrard and Torres are just too precious for us to lose to injury.

Even though at the current moment our focus might be on how to resolve our defensive frailties, it might also be worthwhile to take a look at relieving Torres from the physical treatment of the opponent defenders. It may be about time we have an option other than Gerrard/Torres partnership. And this option may perhaps well be in the form of a striking partnership tactic that Gerard Houllier employed.

After watching Carlton Cole last night I feel that he can be a very good partner for Torres. First of all Torres is our main striker, our focus for goals, our centre forward. Therefore another prolific striker might not work well as a partnership. Imagine two Michael Owens could not be as good a partnership as Michael Owen and Emile Heskey. Carlton Cole is talented and can score goals. IMO he's more talented than Heskey and can head the ball better as well. But what's more important is his presence in the box. He is strong and tall and hard as nail. Defenders cannot afford to take an eye off him. He is really a handful as witnessed by Carra and Skrtl last night. He can hold up the ball and play a decent pass. His assist record is very very decent at West Ham. With Cole taking up presence in the box, demanding attention from defenders, Torres can run amok and score even more goals. Defenders could not afford to just focus on Torres and harrass him. What's more we will have 2 strikers in the box who are both good in the air. This will be really a handful for defenders. The risk of injury to Torres will also be lessened. And Carlton Cole might be a little more acceptable to the notion of a back-up striker for Liverpool compared to other strikers overseas which are considered good enough for the club. Besides we don't have enough money to lure those good enough strikers as well.

Another advantage is that we will have options of 4-4-2 with Gerrard moving back to CM and 4-5-1 with Torres/Gerrard partnership and Aquilani as AM.

Some people may think that Cole is :censored:

...like Number 9 said "back-up for tea lady". And I must admit I'm sticking my neck out there with this. If you look at the name of Carlton Cole at a glance you would think "WTF a Chelsea Reject" "A striker for a lousy team like West Ham". But if you look at Carlton Cole a little more deeply, you see that he has abilities which can be very useful for us. I feel that he's worth a go. He's young and also an english player. Plus we don't have all the money in the world to go for Villas and Eto'os and what nots. If we can get Cole for 10-12 millions... then I say why not?

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:04 am

He's not a bad player by any means Magus and while he wouldn't be my choice, it's not a totally ridiculous suggestion I don't think. I don't actually agree that he would work as a "partner" for Torres, but he would certainly be an option as an alternative. The price you have highlighted wouldn't be too far off I don't think, but my reservations would be that for the same or less money you could do better.

Anyone who has had the misfortune to read through my posts recently will know I was very kean on Darren Bent in the Summer just gone, and have infact rated him for a long time. IMHO he does all that Carlton Cole does and a lot more, offering a very significant goal threat into the bargain. Curiously and this is what appeals as far as we're concerned, he's very much is at his best when he plays up top on his own. He could have been our Torres stand in, as well as a very lively substitute option should we need to go more direct. Sunderland paid 10 million quid for him by all accounts, and IMHO when they flog him again in 18 months time that'll represent about 1/2 of the fee teams will need to offer in order to get them to sit down. If he breaks into the England squad (which he ought to really as he's twice the player Heskey ever was, even at his best) then his value could skyrocket.

As it stands though, Bent is now out of our price bracket (and in truth so is Carlton Cole in all probability). Given that, I can't help thinking that we really ought to start using Babel as a striker. Not starting league games necessarily in the immediate term, but as a Carling Cup option and as a substitute for Torres when he comes off or as a viable alternative when our star striker is injured. I absolutely cannot understand how N'Gog gets in as a striker in front of Babel, and I think it's high time given the threadbare nature of our squad that we gave him a go. Lets be honest here, how good as he got to be in order to become our second best out and out front player

.

On the subject of Bent, his goal record in Premiership starts is excellent. I think it's 55 goals in 106 games or something, and when you consider that he's played the vast majority of his games for Charlton it's nothing short of astounding. His goal record for Sunderland this season is a bit tasty too.

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:25 am

Bent is quality, I said as much only recently on here I'm sure. Cole is good, I'd take focus off the "Chelsea reject" aspect, because being a "reject" from a club whose squad cost around £200m is nothing to be ashamed of.

I don't believe either should be out of our price bracket, Bent only cost something like £12m but Sunderland may not wish to part with him. Even so, would we have to pay any more than we paid for Keane for a player four years younger. We bought completely the wrong spudz player, I'd have preferred Defoe (from pompey or spudz) or Bent before Keane. Preferring Crouch would only be in hindsight.

Whether either Bent or Cole would come knowing that they could be on the bench, played wide and have no guarantee of regular 1st team football is another matter. Both have had shots at big clubs, more often than not a step down in club for a player is a show of not quite having that quality. Players can shine for smaller clubs and then struggle to make the step (back) up. I'd not be against us signing either, but as with Johnson the fee could be a killer BUT at least it would be proportionate to what we're getting ie for a striker, they quite often go for £18m+, not for a full-back who rarely go for £10m+

by **The_Rock** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:16 am

I think we already have a "darren bent" in our team....babel.

"WTF

Babel ?" you say ?....Well if only he had been given half the chances Kuyt was given....I am pretty sure babel will have scored lot more goals by now (and giving us lots more points).

by **JC_81** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:45 am

I was very impressed with Carlton Cole yesterday, he was a handful for our defence all game. Every high ball they punted up he seemed to shrug off our defenders and take it down on his chest, very like Drogba for Chelsea in that respect. He also has a decent turn of pace and quick enough feet. Over the last year or so he's also added regular goals to his game.

I think his stock will continue to rise this season, he'll be in the England squad for the world cup and he'll probably be out of our price range by the time the transfer window reopens. Good player imo.

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:31 am

Well, he seems a striker that has plenty of power, he seems a striker willing to work quite a lot falling to the wings, he definitely seems better that Ngog and Voronin, so definitely I would have him. The problem is that the English players that reach the status of good are well expensive.

by **Octsky** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:38 am

Carlton Cole performed well becoz he was up against a Carra who is beginning to self doubt himself and a Skertel who at times too error prone. I will like to see him go up against world class defenders to make a judgment.

GH and even England now like to play a small man-big man combination something like Owen-Heskey in the past and Rooney-Heskey now.

We have Torres, and he is a special in a way that he is good in the air, and fast on the ground, something like having a small man-big man qualities roll into one package. One thing he needs to work on is his strength in holding off defenders.
So we can find him a small man (Defoe, Villa) or a big man (Cole, Carew) to complement Torres.
IMO, i prefer a striker in the "small man" mold, someone who is fast, agile and has an eye for goal. Defoe will be perfect, Keane in theory given more time will be good too although his age does play a big factor in his short stint here.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:18 am

Both Cole and Bent seem to flourish at the smaller clubs and both are prob very happy to be their main guys - would either of them come to liverpool to be back up to torres ? Bent definatly not as he has already experienced that first hand at spurs and wanted to leave - cole maybe maybe not but for either we would be having to spend upwards of 15 mil for someone to be back up for our main striker - in this current financial situation we find ourselves in we cant afford that sort of money .

While our current back ups are not as good as both Bent or Cole they still seem to pop up with goals when needed or come on -

Ngog has come on once i think and got himself on the scoresheet
Voronin has come on and created a number of chances as well .

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:29 am

This "but he wouldn't come to us" is a bit of a recurring arguement from you GYBS whenever somebody suggests a player. It's usually either that or "but we haven't got the funds". I think the bloke was mentioning Carlton Cole hypothetically, as an option for the future perhaps. My point about Bent was that I think he's a better player for a similar or lesser fee (or he was a lesser fee in the Summer, he won't be now I don't think).

To be perfectly honest in both Cole and Bent's case, they are so far ahead of N'Gog and Voronin it's a stretch to include them in the same sentence. By virtue of the fact he's only a kid there is a chance I suppose that N'Gog may develop into a footballer at some point in the future, but Voronin is never ever going to be good enough (despite currently being better than N'Gog in my view anyway).

It's not slagging anybody off or being disloyal to discuss players who may potentially either have been signed or be signed, it's just chit chat mate.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:35 am

Bent - Left a top four club(nearly top 4) already due to him being used only as a back up

Cole - Left a top four club already due to him being used only as a back up .

What would these guys be at our club - back up - they are currently leading there respective clubs in terms of goal scoring and getting recognised and being included in international squads etc - so what incentive is there for them to come sit on our bench to cover for Torres ?! Crouch has already left due to those exact reasons so i think im pretty confident that those sort of guys would turn down the chance to come to us .

As for them being ahead of our current back ups - didnt i already say they are ?!

As for the "we havent got the funds" is that no a valid reason then ?! have we not seen that happen lately ?

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:36 am

The thing is, we play with one upfront. Torres played upfront on his own for Athletico and seems to thrive with the responsibility. I don't really know what sort of player he plays well with. We all know that the Keane experiment didn't work and even at International level he doesn't really gel with Villa as a partnership. They're just fortunate that they're both brilliant individuals who can always make something for themselves out of nothing.

Agree that we don't have a decent backup though. The problem is, who was available who could have played that role but was also willing to not be first choice? The likes of Bent and Pavlyuchenko were too expensive. I'd have taken Gudjohnsen but would he move if he wasn't first choice? Carlton Cole is decent but not as good as everyone is making out. He's all of a sudden flavour of the month but at times on Saturday we made him look like Didier Drogba.

If we by some miracle have any funds in January, our first priority should be to bring another striker in but I won't hold my breath. Most of the decent players will be CL cuptied anyway.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:47 am

See this is what I don't get. yes we play with one up front, and we've only got precisely one player at the club who can do it. If you are looking for a striking "option", then surely you should have at the forefront of your mind someone who can replace Torres like for like if required. Yes you want someone who you can bung on if you're 2-1 down and throwing the kitchen sink at it, but primarally you need a stand in.

Now onto my favoured choice, Bent. It's not true to say he left Tottenham because he was a "back up", he left Tottenham because the manager there made it very clear that he didn't fancy him at all. Redjknapp is a top manager, but he was/is into playing 4-4-2 at Spurs and Bent is very much like Torres in that he plays best on his own. You'll note that he doesn't gel with Kenwyn Jones either, the West Indian has not got on the pitch before Saturday for a while and when he came on, they were like two three year olds playing together but one playing trains and one playing soldiers.

Now Bent is playing on his own up top again, he is scoring freely. He has scored freely wherever he has played (even at Tottenham) and I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever he would do the same for us.

On the question of him being "back up", well there is obviously no question of him being better than Torres, he isn't. That said, IMHO if we had him he would have played in the league match at Home to Burnley, would have played in the Champions League game, would have played this week against Leeds and would have come on as sub for Torres two or three times as well. By the end of the season he would probably play in 30-40 matches, perhaps more if Torres gets injured. He would be instantly back into the International reckoning, would earn more money and would have a chance of winning trophies.

Would he have signed for us? Of course he would. Will he still be at Sunderland in 18 months time if he continues as he is? Will he feck, he'll go for big money to a big club, and my guess is Arsenal.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:54 am

Well guess we will have to differ as Bent stated even before Arry arrived that he wasnt happy being just a back up and wanted to move on and yes i think he would turn us down becuase he doesnt want to be a striker who can be bunged on when things arent going right or in the CC when torres needs a rest - they guy wants to start week in week out like he did at charlton and score lots - when at spurs and he didnt start week in week out his scoring record wasnt the greatest until he got a run then started scoring - he wouldnt get those sort of runs of games at Liverpool unless torres was unavailalbe

As for getting 30 -40 matches

i dont think so - maybe in the 20s with a lot of them coming on a sub not starting week in week out .

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:55 am

Didn't Lucas play in 40 games last season or something

Just shows you anything is possible.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:56 am

bigmick wrote:Didn't Lucas play in 40 games last season or something Just shows you anything is possible.

Lucas played around 26 ish games - mainly filling in for Masher or Xabi when they were injured or coming on as a sub .

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A back-up striker/ partner for torres - Someone like carlton cole

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