Liverpool FC Forum

aCe' wrote:

SupitsJonF wrote:

aCe' wrote:excellent point...

May I help you?

no not really.. just thought you made a good point about the whole "not old enough to drink but can join the marines" thing... theres a huge debate about this and yea..... cool....
no disrespect at all and im not saying its your fault or anything but you come across as someone who knows quite a bit about one side of the story but nothing at all about the other.. so you just put all your efforts into discussing what you know which is fair enough...
not very objective though  ...

Your ... threw me off, I thought you were being sarcastic .

Apologies

tonyeh wrote:

Reg wrote:

Emerald Red wrote:

Judge wrote:the germans targeted civilians in WW2, we targeted their civilians in WW2. the japs were warned by the americans in WW2 if they didnt fully surrender .

acts of war, not terrorism


imo

But the war was effectively over and the Yanks knew it. Dropping those bombs was merely a forewarning and a declaration of power. It was like a "don't f*ck with us because we've got these to fire at you" warning.

The war was NOT effectively over, the US was actively planning the invasion of Japan that would have cost additional 10's of thousands of allied deaths and millions of USD. THAT was not an option, hence the bomb was dropped. I have NO sympathy for the Japs as the atrocities in Nanjing, Pearl Harbour and later in the jungles of asia would bear out.

Operation Coronet and Olympic were non-starters. There simply was no need for them to be launched once Japan was fully contained.

It was well known that the Japanese were close to "sealing the deal" as it were. They were finished.

The US had been reading Suzuki's government comuniques and had been aware that the Japanese were looking for a way to sue for peace.

Judge wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Reg wrote:

Emerald Red wrote:

Judge wrote:the germans targeted civilians in WW2, we targeted their civilians in WW2. the japs were warned by the americans in WW2 if they didnt fully surrender .

acts of war, not terrorism


imo

But the war was effectively over and the Yanks knew it. Dropping those bombs was merely a forewarning and a declaration of power. It was like a "don't f*ck with us because we've got these to fire at you" warning.

The war was NOT effectively over, the US was actively planning the invasion of Japan that would have cost additional 10's of thousands of allied deaths and millions of USD. THAT was not an option, hence the bomb was dropped. I have NO sympathy for the Japs as the atrocities in Nanjing, Pearl Harbour and later in the jungles of asia would bear out.

Operation Coronet and Olympic were non-starters. There simply was no need for them to be launched once Japan was fully contained.

It was well known that the Japanese were close to "sealing the deal" as it were. They were finished.

The US had been reading Suzuki's government comuniques and had been aware that the Japanese were looking for a way to sue for peace.

sue for peace? wtf


the japs refused surrender, as that was there way.

so the americans delivered on there promise. they had a choice the japs choice the wrong option

Wrong. 

The Suzuki government had had a substantial "peace party" within itself since early '45. Many had seen the writing on the wall and after the firebombing of Tokyo, it was clear that the US was going to win the war to all concerned. In fact, the only significant member of the Japanese government who was against the idea of approaching the allies with regards to peace was Army Minister Korechika Anami. The cabinet had been largely unified on the matter. The only problem was the allies insistance on "unconditional surrender", and what that actually meant for the Emperor. They were also at a loss on how to actually proceed.

Even though the Americans knew this to be the case through the Purple codes, they still chose not to actually inform the Japanese that they had no intention to harm their Emperor or even infringe on the home islands. These were the sticking points for an actual Japanese surrender.

All the US had to do was to make the terms of "unconditional surrender" clear to the Japanese and the war would have ended, without resort to the bomb.

This, of course, would have meant no wartime test of the weapon that was to become so important to the US arsenal after the war. By the Summer of 1945, that was the most important issue, not a Japanese surrender. The test results of dropping a weapon like the atomic bomb on an undamaged city like Hiroshima was absolutely invaluable to the Americans. It's why the city was chosen in the first place. The "Trinity" test proved that the bomb would explode like the theory suggested, but the "Hiroshima" test would show what the bomb would actually do to a city.

tonyeh wrote:

Judge wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Reg wrote:

Emerald Red wrote:

Judge wrote:the germans targeted civilians in WW2, we targeted their civilians in WW2. the japs were warned by the americans in WW2 if they didnt fully surrender .

acts of war, not terrorism


imo

But the war was effectively over and the Yanks knew it. Dropping those bombs was merely a forewarning and a declaration of power. It was like a "don't f*ck with us because we've got these to fire at you" warning.

The war was NOT effectively over, the US was actively planning the invasion of Japan that would have cost additional 10's of thousands of allied deaths and millions of USD. THAT was not an option, hence the bomb was dropped. I have NO sympathy for the Japs as the atrocities in Nanjing, Pearl Harbour and later in the jungles of asia would bear out.

Operation Coronet and Olympic were non-starters. There simply was no need for them to be launched once Japan was fully contained.

It was well known that the Japanese were close to "sealing the deal" as it were. They were finished.

The US had been reading Suzuki's government comuniques and had been aware that the Japanese were looking for a way to sue for peace.

sue for peace? wtf


the japs refused surrender, as that was there way.

so the americans delivered on there promise. they had a choice the japs choice the wrong option

All the US had to do was to make the terms of "unconditional surrender" clear to the Japanese and the war would have ended, without resort to the bomb.

Judge wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Judge wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

Reg wrote:

Emerald Red wrote:

Judge wrote:the germans targeted civilians in WW2, we targeted their civilians in WW2. the japs were warned by the americans in WW2 if they didnt fully surrender .

acts of war, not terrorism


imo

But the war was effectively over and the Yanks knew it. Dropping those bombs was merely a forewarning and a declaration of power. It was like a "don't f*ck with us because we've got these to fire at you" warning.

The war was NOT effectively over, the US was actively planning the invasion of Japan that would have cost additional 10's of thousands of allied deaths and millions of USD. THAT was not an option, hence the bomb was dropped. I have NO sympathy for the Japs as the atrocities in Nanjing, Pearl Harbour and later in the jungles of asia would bear out.

Operation Coronet and Olympic were non-starters. There simply was no need for them to be launched once Japan was fully contained.

It was well known that the Japanese were close to "sealing the deal" as it were. They were finished.

The US had been reading Suzuki's government comuniques and had been aware that the Japanese were looking for a way to sue for peace.

sue for peace? wtf


the japs refused surrender, as that was there way.

so the americans delivered on there promise. they had a choice the japs choice the wrong option

All the US had to do was to make the terms of "unconditional surrender" clear to the Japanese and the war would have ended, without resort to the bomb.

the terms of UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER
is UNCONDITIONAL

come on tonyeh, the japs would have to be pretty thick not to understand ''unconditional''. Unconditional means there are NO conditions (no negotiation). Straight forward as far as i can see.

If someone said surrender now, thats it (cause thats what the yanks said), then i'd say ok, we are beaten, we will surrender unconditionally.
I mean the germans surrendered unconditionally, and they didnt need clarification!!

sorry fella, but your rectums doing the talking now mate

woof woof ! wrote:

come on tonyeh, the japs would have to be pretty thick not to understand ''unconditional''. Unconditional means there are NO conditions (no negotiation). Straight forward as far as i can see.

If someone said surrender now, thats it (cause thats what the yanks said), then i'd say ok, we are beaten, we will surrender unconditionally.
I mean the germans surrendered unconditionally, and they didnt need clarification!!

Just to add even after the first bomb was dropped the Japanese were still debating whether to surrender. They were aware or nuclear weaponary and had been working on their own device. They questioned whether the americans would have sufficient quantities of uranium to continue with more nuclear attacks, the americans in fact at that time had enough for the creation of seven devices.

It was only after a second bomb was dropped and the subsequent personal intervention of Emperor Hirihito that the demand for unconditional surrender was finally accepted.

woof woof ! wrote:Meanwhile back in Afghanistan.

Is it really a war against terrorism or Islamic fundamentalism ? (maybe some think it's one and the same ?).

Personally I'm of the opinion that even if the West we're able to win the war on the ground and leave the country and it's security in the hands of the Afghan gov't the fundamentalist mentality will never be  eradicated, I can see the stuggle for control of Afghanistan continuing for decades. In the long run I don't think history will view our presence there as being positive.

tonyeh wrote:

woof woof ! wrote:

come on tonyeh, the japs would have to be pretty thick not to understand ''unconditional''. Unconditional means there are NO conditions (no negotiation). Straight forward as far as i can see.

If someone said surrender now, thats it (cause thats what the yanks said), then i'd say ok, we are beaten, we will surrender unconditionally.
I mean the germans surrendered unconditionally, and they didnt need clarification!!

Just to add even after the first bomb was dropped the Japanese were still debating whether to surrender. They were aware or nuclear weaponary and had been working on their own device. They questioned whether the americans would have sufficient quantities of uranium to continue with more nuclear attacks, the americans in fact at that time had enough for the creation of seven devices.

It was only after a second bomb was dropped and the subsequent personal intervention of Emperor Hirihito that the demand for unconditional surrender was finally accepted.

That's not quite the case.

When the first bomb hit Hiroshima, the Japanese government were stunned. Some even dismissed it as hysteria.

A dispatch was sent to Hiroshima to determine the vailidity of the attack on August 7th and once it was confirmed (on August 8th) that a single bomb had destroyed the entire city and claimed so many lives, it was obvious what was to be done.

The simple fact is, that Nagasaki was destroyed a mere 3 days after Hiroshima.

That's not a big timeframe.

And yes, the Japanese were aware of atomic theory, but they had no physical device and were decades behind Germany in their pursuit of a usable weapon, who were themselves at least 10 years behind the US.