Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:18 pm

GYBS wrote:Xavi is a deep lying playmaker as well

GYBS, Xavi and Xabi are different midfielders in almost everything.

So fair enough, I don't have problems with this deep lying playmaker DLP nomenclature, but I want to get something clear:

If Alonso is DLP, Xavi isn't.

If Xavi is DLP, Xabi isn't.

Different in their roles, different in their abilities (although they have a few common points), different in everything.

No?

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:53 pm

Is Alonso's role not dependent on whether or not he is playing with Senna?

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:05 pm

JoeTerp wrote:Is Alonso's role not dependent on whether or not he is playing with Senna?

Correct Joe, pretty much like Alonso's role is different when Mascherano plays alongside him or not.

When Senna's not playing Alonso is the only holding mid and he shows off less. When Senna plays and the double holding mid (of a very attacking team it must be added) of Spain allows Xabi more freedom pretty much like the one he has enjoyed this season.

Alonso has known the two roles, both as only holding mid of the team, and as double holding mid partnership -- without double holding mid meaning "we don't attack".

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:44 pm

The essential attributes of a deep-lying playmaker include:

Good long passing ability, to play balls towards forwards and wingers. Crossfield passes are typically attempted from deep when the opposing full back is drawn towards the middle and there is an open channel in the flank for the on rushing winger.

Stamina, to cover large distances in professional football. In the top football leagues, a midfielder covers upwards of 10 kilometres per game.

Short passing ability. Although many deep-lying playmakers have natural talent and creativity, they are expected to play short simple passes when deep in their half to avoid the possibility of a counter-attack. They are however given some degree of freedom in playing long passes deep into opposition territory.

Creativity. The deep-lying playmaker needs to spot openings and opportunities to build up play.

A good and sure first touch to control the ball when receiving passes under sustained opposition pressure.

And that my friends is Xabi
:nod

What would people define the role of Davids an Effenberg just out of curiosity like

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:35 am

Davids for me was a box to box midfielder like Roy Keane. Maybe a touch more creative and a touch less physical than Roy.

Effenberg was great, I used to love watching him play. For such a big man he had great skills. I would say he started as an attacking midfielder, but later became a superb all round central midfielder. Maybe not the stamina of the first two I mentioned(bit lazy) but bags of skill and quite physical when needed. I had forgotten all about him Nanny and he was one of my all time favourites too lol. I think he got banned from international football for showing his bottom or waving his willy about.

Netzer was another German star midfielder, ripped England apart at Wembley but lost his place to Overath again by the time the World cup came around.

I watched him when they played Liverpool, but he played sweeper that day, and I think we won comfortably. Not sure of the season.

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:11 am

Sabre wrote:
GYBS wrote:Xavi is a deep lying playmaker as well

GYBS, Xavi and Xabi are different midfielders in almost everything.

So fair enough, I don't have problems with this deep lying playmaker DLP nomenclature, but I want to get something clear:

If Alonso is DLP, Xavi isn't.

If Xavi is DLP, Xabi isn't.

Different in their roles, different in their abilities (although they have a few common points), different in everything.

No?

Dont they both play the same sort of roles for their club ? they both have a destroyer to win the ball for them then they control the play with their passing . XAvi plays a lot more simple one twos looking to burst forward when he gets a chance but seen him plenty of times pick the ball off senna for spain or toure/busquets for barce to start the attacking play - both in deep areas and high areas - Xabi does that by picking the ball off Masher .

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:13 am

s@int wrote:Davids for me was a box to box midfielder like Roy Keane. Maybe a touch more creative and a touch less physical than Roy.

Effenberg was great, I used to love watching him play. For such a big man he had great skills. I would say he started as an attacking midfielder, but later became a superb all round central midfielder. Maybe not the stamina of the first two I mentioned(bit lazy) but bags of skill and quite physical when needed. I had forgotten all about him Nanny and he was one of my all time favourites too lol. I think he got banned from international football for showing his bottom or waving his willy about.

Netzer was another German star midfielder, ripped England apart at Wembley but lost his place to Overath again by the time the World cup came around.

I watched him when they played Liverpool, but he played sweeper that day, and I think we won comfortably. Not sure of the season.

Spot on about Davids - I would class Effenberg in the same style as Mattheus - An Attacking midfielder who burst forward lots until years caught up on them and Effenberg dropped to a deeper role and Mattheus dropped to sweeper .

by **Owzat** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:45 am

Sabre wrote:That's what nomenclature is about, putting names to things and roles.

DM, AM, LM, CM, RM, CF, WF, CB, LB etc etc are all pretty commonly used these days, since football games on PCs and games consoles started using them more and more instead of GK, DF, MF and CF.

I think the problem is these are roles more than player types. DM might be a player's preferred role or the role he plays, but effectively the person in it has his own attributes -as per....

Sabre wrote:defensive midfielder doesn't imply the player doesn't know to pass. And it's an old role!! Xabi's own father was this kind of player, but his son is an improved version.

............so both Xabi and Mascherano may play DM roles, but they are not exclusively DMs per se. Mascherano is very limited, doesn't have the range of passing or the shooting skills Xabi has. Even though Xabi may be playing a DM role, doesn't mean he can't use his other skills or go forward. So he is a much more complete DM who can play CM, probably wide and perhaps even a Gerrard-esque role. If he played Gerrard's role I think he'd merely not be quite as good at it, not from certain aspects like surging runs. But he could spray the ball about and thread little through balls to Torres, Kuyt and Benayoun/Riera/whoever is on the left.

So calling Xabi DM isn't incorrect, it assumes a DM's PRIMARY function is to break up attacks and never go forward. What the DM actually does really depends on the player, their primary role may be to sit in front of the back four, but that isn't to say they can't play short and long passes and be said "deep-lying playmaker". I have said on here that Xabi doesn't go forward as much as I'd like, he is starting to more.

When I saw the thread title I immediately thought "we don't need one, we have Xabi".

Very few roles within a side involve only one 'duty' shall we say. CBs are there to clear the ball, but also have to tidy up any long balls and distribute the ball. FBs are there to defend and attack, how much they do each will either depend on their instruction, how the team is set up to play or the players themselves. Gerrard plays attacking midfield, some on here suggesting he is more a supporting striker, but that doesn't mean he doesn't (have to) defend. Kuyt has perhaps become a fine example of a solid all-round player, chipping in with goals, assists, winning the ball back, defending deep when needed, interpassing etc. Some on here would be happy to replace his all-round contribution with a player who can "beat his man" and "whip in crosses" regardless of end product and work-rate.

What do Gerrard, Alonso and Kuyt have in common? Certainly you wouldn't list them with the same two letter role, I'm not sure you could ever really label Gerrard a DM. What they do have in common is they all have very good all-round games, all three can tackle, pass, dribble, cross, shoot and score, although to differing levels they are to acceptable standards enough you would put them on their CVs as skills. The only thing perhaps Kuyt doesn't have on his is set-pieces, whether he is any good at taking corners and free-kicks we may never find out while Gerrard and Alonso are in the side, or the likes of Aurelio and Lucas in his absence. But still Gerrard, Alonso and Kuyt have very good all-round games.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:25 pm

It's difficult to discuss about this.

I agree Owzat, that Alonso could play CM in it's classical role, and thus he's not exclusively a DM.

But Owzat, that exact thing could be said about Hamman, which you probably consider a good example of DM. Hamman, a great DM IMHO, simply lacked some of the vision and touch of Alonso.

I totally disagree GYBS in the way he compares Xavi and Xabi.

But instead of making a list of what I agree and I disagree, I'll go directly to the source of our disagreement. Because nomenclature depends on what you understand about the position. For me a DM doesn't mean he never goes forward or he's not a brilliant passer. We can discuss for ages how we name things depending on what we consider the position's main function, and that will be an endless loop.

What I want to discuss really is this:

IMHO, many of you appreciate Xabi's danger near the opposition box. You see him as able to spot a deadly last pass, you see him able to create danger out of a shot, you see him creative, and that pushes you to compare him to Xavi or Gerrard. Owzat says he wouldn't be as good as Gerrard in a Gerrard-esque role, and I agree, in fact he wouldn't be 15% as good.

IMHO then, most of the regular writers of this forum appreciate Xabi for certain features of his game, and IMHO you even overrate him in that sense assuming he can do things he really can't, like being comfortable in the 3/4 of the pitch as players like Xavi and Gerrard.

The thing I disagree is how some of you underrate Alonso when we haven't the ball, and this is the core of our disagreement. This is the reason why when Alonso didn't do Hollywoodesque attacking plays many of you thought he did an awful game, and I thought he did just a normal game.

For me, Alonso is aswell very important in our defensive solidness. I disagree GYBS when he says this

they both have a destroyer to win the ball for them then they control the play with their passing

It seems to imply that the defensive task and the ball winning tasks are almost completely Mascherano's task, while I think that when they play together they both share an important amount of work in that sense.

I think many fans appreciate Xabi when he has the ball, but ignore or dismiss Xabi's tackling and positioning quite simply because it's not as espectacular as when Mascherano makes a crunching tackle or Kuyt pursues endlessly an oppo player.

Xabi's good decissions when starting plays also have an impact in our solidness, because being solid defensively is also about not losing the ball in dangerous places. It's rare to see Xabi letting the team down in that sense in a season.

I appreciate Xabi's defensive skills as much as his attacking ones, and that I think is what makes me disagreeing with many of you. I think that if I asked here, in percentages, how much gives Alonso to the attack and defence of the team? you'd answer Attack 90%, Defend: 10%, while for me it would be almost a fifty-fifty.

That's where I think we disagree most. In that, and in the opinion that Xabi could do even in a minimal percentage what can do the likes of Fabregas, Xavi, or Gerrard. Xabi simply doesn't have many of the things these players have and he hasn't. He's not comfortable in narrow spaces, he doesn't like to receive the ball backwards to the goal, he doen't run with the ball comfortably, it would be easy to nullify him if he lived regularly in the places of the pitch that Xavi and Gerrard normally occupy.

But well, it's nice to disagree.

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:29 pm

I agree on the whole Xabi gets stuck in and wins his fair share of tackles etc same with what Xavi does but they have an enforcing next to them that allows them a bit more freedom to play the ball - someone who is disciplined to hold that gap in front of the back four while xabi controls the flow of the football but he also helps out when winning the ball .

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:53 pm

GYBS wrote:I agree on the whole Xabi gets stuck in and wins his fair share of tackles etc same with what Xavi does but they have an enforcing next to them that allows them a bit more freedom to play the ball - someone who is disciplined to hold that gap in front of the back four while xabi controls the flow of the football but he also helps out when winning the ball .

But watch any one of our games, mate, where Alonso and Masch play together and Masch is often further up the pitch than Alonso. Sissoko was the same when he was here. I think people see Mascherano playing the Makalele role, sitting in front of and shielding the defenders for 90 minutes but, for me, Mascherano plays a lot further forward a lot of the time. There's a reason why he makes so many sliding tackles...he's racing back to recover (that's not a criticism, BTW, it's simply to point out that he wouldn't often need to tackle like he does if he were merely sitting in front of the CBs and pushing out to stifle the danger materializing in front of him.)

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:56 pm

I guess its prob 50/50 bob with both of them doing their fair share and dove tailing nicely together.I wasnt really saying that is what masher is merely doing but can see it being their prime roles.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:01 pm

Sabre wrote:It's difficult to discuss about this.

I agree Owzat, that Alonso could play CM in it's classical role, and thus he's not exclusively a DM.

But Owzat, that exact thing could be said about Hamman, which you probably consider a good example of DM. Hamman, a great DM IMHO, simply lacked some of the vision and touch of Alonso.

For me perhaps the best way of expressing it is Xabi plays a "deep-lying playmaker" role in a defensive midfield (DM) position

The difficulty I guess, and why a lot of people refer to him as a DM instead of a CM, is because we traditionally think of a CM as a Gerrard type, bossing the midfield, making box to box runs, playing 1-2s and so on. It is also commonly accepted that teams will have one midfielder sitting back while the other goes forward (in a 4-4-2), although now we have three and the deepest would be Mascherano.

I don't really worry myself too much over the difference between a DM and a CM, especially not when playing footy management or PES. In footy management I set up a four man midfield with a kind of diamond but I don't think too much about whether the deepest is a CM or DM. I stick the furthest forward making forward runs between the two strikers, making sure he is excellent passing and shooting, but the "DM" I pick has to have very good passing skills (75+) and tackling (60+) but couldn't care less whether he is technically a DM or CM.

In PES I play much the Liverpool formation, except I play one DM and two attacking midfielders in a triangle. I play Mascherano at RB, Agger at LB, Alonso in the DM role and Gerrard LAM, with Benayoun RAM - CFs/WFs being Babel, Torres and Kuyt from right to left. That way I have Gerrard and Kuyt link up on the left, with right foot shooting, and the opposite side/foot for Benayoun and Babel. It gives me defensive solidity with no lack of pace or dribbling in attacking areas. Again I'm not too worried as to whether Alonso is DM or CM, in fact I think you can redefine the position without moving players although I'm not sure if it makes any more difference than discussing it on here!

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:05 pm

Owzat wrote:
Sabre wrote:It's difficult to discuss about this.

I agree Owzat, that Alonso could play CM in it's classical role, and thus he's not exclusively a DM.

But Owzat, that exact thing could be said about Hamman, which you probably consider a good example of DM. Hamman, a great DM IMHO, simply lacked some of the vision and touch of Alonso.

For me perhaps the best way of expressing it is Xabi plays a "deep-lying playmaker" role in a defensive midfield (DM) position

The difficulty I guess, and why a lot of people refer to him as a DM instead of a CM, is because we traditionally think of a CM as a Gerrard type, bossing the midfield, making box to box runs, playing 1-2s and so on. It is also commonly accepted that teams will have one midfielder sitting back while the other goes forward (in a 4-4-2), although now we have three and the deepest would be Mascherano.

I don't really worry myself too much over the difference between a DM and a CM, especially not when playing footy management or PES. In footy management I set up a four man midfield with a kind of diamond but I don't think too much about whether the deepest is a CM or DM. I stick the furthest forward making forward runs between the two strikers, making sure he is excellent passing and shooting, but the "DM" I pick has to have very good passing skills (75+) and tackling (60+) but couldn't care less whether he is technically a DM or CM.

In PES I play much the Liverpool formation, except I play one DM and two attacking midfielders in a triangle. I play Mascherano at RB, Agger at LB, Alonso in the DM role and Gerrard LAM, with Benayoun RAM - CFs/WFs being Babel, Torres and Kuyt from right to left. That way I have Gerrard and Kuyt link up on the left, with right foot shooting, and the opposite side/foot for Benayoun and Babel. It gives me defensive solidity with no lack of pace or dribbling in attacking areas. Again I'm not too worried as to whether Alonso is DM or CM, in fact I think you can redefine the position without moving players although I'm not sure if it makes any more difference than discussing it on here!

Sorry mate but your post must loose a bit of creditbility when you start comparing how you play the liverpool formation on a computer game

by **Sabre** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:24 pm

It's not a computer game. It's worse. It's a computer game done by Japanese!

For them football is like this

the pitch is endless and the tactics are pass it to Benji!!

In all seriousness I don't have anything against the argumentation of Owzat in this thread as a whole even if I disagree parts of it, but I agree the PES comment in the last post doesn't really provide a valid point by itself.

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