Liverpool FC Forum

by **Liverpool KAIGELS** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:25 am

He and Skrtel might not be clicking .
Skrtel is not clicking .
Sorry to say this , but i dont think skrtel will ever become world class . He's just ok .

by **Owzat** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:45 am

john craig wrote:I never said it was black and white. 'Past it' is a term used all too often. What does it mean? Does it mean a player is past his best? Or does it mean he's finished as a player? It seems to be used in both circumstances.

Personally I think Carra is past his best. If you can't remember the standard of his performances just 2-3 seasons ago then that's your problem. And yes I do watch games from seasons past, that's what interests me about football - watching it - not dragging up stats on how many times a player scratches his balls in 90 mins or how many corners are taken left footed rather than right.

Basically you're saying that we can't comment on whether players have improved or deteriorated in the space of 3 seasons because our memories aren't good enough?? Bollox mate. Speak for yourself.

I didn't say you can't comment, I'm saying you're basing your judgements of how good he was three seasons ago on MEMORY, and we know that some things aren't always exactly how we remember them. Like I said, it isn't with any precision you're making these calls, not sitting watching videos from this season and from three seasons ago, you're just drawing a conclusion most people make automatically as players get older - slower and not so sharp in the tackle.

And as I said, Carra has played EVERY Premiership game this season, he played 38 in 04/05, 36 in 05/06, 35 in 06/07 and 07/08, so he's played practically every game in the past FIVE seasons. At his age that is a shedload of games with little respite, he's bound to look somewhat tired and slower in everything he does at the end of the season - whether you have perfect recall or nostalic memory to compare with games this season. Memory is not a precise science, no matter how perfect you may think your's is.

I watch games, same as everyone else. I wouldn't be so assuming to make judgement calls on whether Carra is slightly slower or not quite timing tackles, certainly without an ACCURATE point of refence. He might be slightly slower, he might simply be knackered. If his tackles were that poorly timed he'd be getting more yellows, in fact his current five is as few as he's received in a season under Rafa.

I throw in stats to add some interest, better than reading half the circular arguments and ridiculous (unsubstantiated) claims made on forums. It is possible to be interested in both stats and non-stats elements of football, I bet you're one of those that will dismiss stats, but be interested in them when it suits you. Do you drag that into it because you know that you can't back up your own claims with any evidence and therefore have to try and make me out to be less credible because I quote stats from time to time - if so, do one.

I've better things to do than argue with an unprovable claim, I'm off.

by **Fowler_E7** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:12 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:Think he is just tired tbh, he has beenmaking mistakes this season but he is now into his 30's and is playing every game.
He will be back next season stronger than ever, i just think he needs a break.

I also cant see how anyone could even consider Skyrtl in the same league, i really think that he is our weakest defender and he looks dodgy even in a system where we have 2 holding midfielders and the rest of the team tracking back.

I also think what people dont realise is that with him being played as a partner to either Agger or Skyrtl - he is being made to switch from right to left in the partnership and expected to switch without any problems.

I agree that he has been well below his best, but i think once he has a break and if he played with Agger as his settled partner next season then we will see him back to his best - or still close to it.

Dont write him off.

my thoughts exactly, Skrtel is now where near good enough, and when he plays Carragher seems to suffer as well. I think Rafa should just make Agger and Carra the regular partnership and see how it goes for a while, the centre back area is not position you should rotate with a lot IMO. I personally dont think that Carra has started to tail off as a player, he's pretty much the same player, but he has clearly suffered by having worse players around him at the back, but i would say he is clearly looking tired now, i mean he's played every game and thats bound to catch with him eventually.

by **Ace Ventura** » Sun May 10, 2009 3:07 pm

john craig wrote:
Owzat wrote:
john craig wrote:
Owzat wrote:I do watch him, and you're telling me he plays that much worse than previously and I wonder if you're watching him - noone can say they can remember his games from three years ago anywhere near as well as one YESTERDAY

What are you on about?

I'm not talking about just yesterday. He made a stupid mistake which can happen to any top defender on a bad day. Fact is he's slightly slower and his timing of the tackle's not quite what it was a few seasons ago.

He's made a few mistakes this season, he's also made some excellent (saving) tackles. My point is not that you're basing this entirely on yesterday, just that perhaps you're remembering him as faultless from three seasons ago when he might well have made a few errors. And there are such things as good, bad and not the best seasons, some things aren't black and white - past it or not past it

I don't think Carra was ever that quick, usually CBs make up for it with improved reading of the game. As for telling if someone is slightly slower and not timing his tackles quite as well as a few seasons ago - feck me, if you're doing that from memory. I doubt you rewatch past matches, you're not lending much credibility to it by comparing speed and timing across fairly large gaps of time

I never said it was black and white. 'Past it' is a term used all too often. What does it mean? Does it mean a player is past his best? Or does it mean he's finished as a player? It seems to be used in both circumstances.

Personally I think Carra is past his best. If you can't remember the standard of his performances just 2-3 seasons ago then that's your problem. And yes I do watch games from seasons past, that's what interests me about football - watching it - not dragging up stats on how many times a player scratches his balls in 90 mins or how many corners are taken left footed rather than right.

Basically you're saying that we can't comment on whether players have improved or deteriorated in the space of 3 seasons because our memories aren't good enough?? Bollox mate. Speak for yourself.

There are a few reasons why he may have suffered a bit this season, one i have already said is having Skyrtl as his main partner - the slovakian doesnt fill me with much confidence.
Another is the fact that he has played every game and does look tired, he is 31 now so wont be able to play 60 games in a season and perform to the same level.

Another one (this is why i have quoted you John) is the maybe he looks like he isnt at the same level as 2-3 seasons ago cos we are actually a much better side.
Carra 2-3 years ago was renowned for making last ditch tackles and countless blocks on shots.
Well we dominate most games these days so the back four dont tend to be exposed or put under the same pressure, so perhaps his form hasnt dropped - its maybe just that we dont see last ditch tackles as we are a top side that spend more time in posession and on the offensive.

by **JC_81** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:09 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:There are a few reasons why he may have suffered a bit this season, one i have already said is having Skyrtl as his main partner - the slovakian doesnt fill me with much confidence.
Another is the fact that he has played every game and does look tired, he is 31 now so wont be able to play 60 games in a season and perform to the same level.

Another one (this is why i have quoted you John) is the maybe he looks like he isnt at the same level as 2-3 seasons ago cos we are actually a much better side.
Carra 2-3 years ago was renowned for making last ditch tackles and countless blocks on shots.
Well we dominate most games these days so the back four dont tend to be exposed or put under the same pressure, so perhaps his form hasnt dropped - its maybe just that we dont see last ditch tackles as we are a top side that spend more time in posession and on the offensive.

I think your points are valid mate, they have probably all contributed to Carra's performances this season.

What Owzat and others fail to grasp though is that I am not basing my judgement on yesterday's game or even on recent games, I'm basing it on the past two seasons. I said at the start of last season that he didn't look the same player and most didn't agree. He followed on from that by giving away a series of daft penalties in games against West Ham, Reading and others as well as getting away with blatant penalties against Blackburn and Everton. Still people wouldn't accept it. And those mistakes can't be blamed on him being tired - none of those games were anywhere near the end of the season. Nor can they be blamed on Skrtel - to my recollection he didn't play any of those games.

No mate, for me there has been a definite decline and it hasn't happened overnight, it hasn't even just happened this season, it can't be solely blamed on Skrtel and it can't be solely blamed on tiredness. That said, I'll reiterate that he's still a better player than Agger or Skrtel by some distance and would be one of my first names on the teamsheet. He's only 31 and certainly not finished. What we do need however is a more settled defence to help him get back to something like his best. Settle on playing him with Agger or Skrtel and take it from there.

by **metalhead** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:19 pm

Carra looks like he lost a yard, but that what happens when you age.

by **tubby** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:33 pm

He is still our best CB by a mile. Which is worrying but I have faith Agger and Skrtel will eventually come good.

by **SundanceKid** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:47 pm

I don't know about rotating Carra. It won't do much good for the morale of the team.

by **tubby** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:52 pm

Eventually he will have to. But probably not next season. Season after maybe.

by **Greavesie** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:56 pm

In his book Carra said he'd be well p!ssed off if he became a squad player. I don't think he'd put up with a bit part role

by **SundanceKid** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Greavesie wrote:In his book Carra said he'd be well p!ssed off if he became a squad player. I don't think he'd put up with a bit part role

And think of his replacement, either Skrtel or Agger. I personally couldn't play too well knowing that the Vice-Captain is frustrated that he's sitting on the bench for me. I say we keep our defense the way it is and focus on getting the first goal in every game...

Then the second, the third and subsequently our usual fourth

by **tubby** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:24 pm

Carra is Liverpool through and through. He knows that when the time comes where others need to be starting ahead of him then he will need to take a step back. I don't think he was saying that in an egotistical way.

by **Sir Roger** » Sun May 10, 2009 7:27 pm

Everybody and I mean everybody makes mistakes. Ask Vidic.

A mate of mine absolutely hates Carra. Says he's shi'te. I used to think that years ago when he went through a terrible time in his earlier days. But since about 2001 I would say he has been our most consistent and reliable defender. I will admit he is getting slower but his reading and anticipation are still excellent. If his distribution was improved he would be even better. I believe he is still in the top five of Central defenders in the country.

A couple of points:
I would rather have him than Rio Ferdinand any day
Sammi Hyppia is older, never had pace and is still a force to be reconned with

by **Madmax** » Sun May 10, 2009 9:33 pm

Carra is a top defender but i doubt he would be able to hack as many games next season. Rafa must rotate the other defenders aswel. Next season will be similar to this but more tough and fierce. With 38 games in the prem, possible route to champs league final and progression in other domestic cups there will be plenty of rotation.

by **bigmick** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:17 am

Sir Roger wrote:A couple of points:
I would rather have him than Rio Ferdinand any day
Sammi Hyppia is older, never had pace and is still a force to be reconned with

I rate Carra as our best defender by a distance, but also think he's probably not quite what he was two or three seasons ago. Doesn't mean he can't get there again though, players sometimes just need to reinvent themselves to take account of their changing physicality. Carra probably needs to have a wee look at his starting positions during matches, if he works on those he'll be back to his best next season I reckon.

The reason I quoted Sir Roger was because of the Rio Ferdinand reference. Surely a case of allowing understandable anti-Man Utd bias to cloud judgfement over a player mate? I'd be amazed if Carra himself thinks he's a better player than Ferdinand. If we had Ferdinand and therefore naturally by definition they didn't, we'd have won the title this season comfortably IMHO.

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