Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:38 am

stmichael wrote:Back on topic...

It's obviously a really good sign that we're there challenging for these major honours, but sooner rather than later we have to start actually winning them.

I have confidence that we can do that next season but I'm also going to actively temper that so it doesn't become over-confidence like it did with a lot of people (me included) three years ago after we amassed 82 points in the League.

When we did well that year in 2006 a few factors should of kept us on the ground - we got knocked out early in the CL so were able to play our best 11 for the rest of the campaign , Man Utd were going through a rebuilding phase yet still finished above us and chelsea were still miles away . that year there were a lot of false hopes - while it was a decent team it still wasnt good enough to challenge and no point throughout that season did we challenge . this season is different - we have challenged - we have been up their fighting for it and still are and we must learn from the experience

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:17 am

On a side note, how many barren years is Arsene Wenger allowed at Arsenal?

Their fans are on on the whole pretty happy with the way things are going, yet he seems to be getting judged by outsiders on the amount of silverware ammassed in recent years.

It has to work both ways.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:21 am

stmichael wrote:On a side note, how many barren years is Arsene Wenger allowed at Arsenal?

Their fans are on on the whole pretty happy with the way things are going, yet he seems to be getting judged by outsiders on the amount of silverware ammassed in recent years.

It has to work both ways.

Kind of been done before, but the two situations aren't really comaprable. Where's s@int when you need him, but basically Arsenal have rebuilt the whole squad while Rafa's been Liverpool manager, from top to bottom and haven't spent any money. We on the other hand have spent plenty, and still have a couple of members of the squad which Rafa inherited, one of whom is actually a pretty good player.

No, no comparison for me. There is also the rider that wenger has "equity" as he's won plenty eith them in the past.

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:35 am

bigmick wrote:Arsenal have rebuilt the whole squad while Rafa's been Liverpool manager, from top to bottom and haven't spent any money.

Where does this myth come from? So £18m for Reyes, £12m for Walcott, £12m for Nasri, £8m for Sagna, £8.5m for Adebayor, £14m for Arshavin, £5m for Ramsey constitutes no money these days does it?

Anyway back to Liverpool. I am fully behind Rafa and I like his methods. I think he's doing a very good job under tough circumstances. However there will come a time, when we have to say enough is enough as we need to win trophies and I am merely asking the question when fans think that time should be.

Personally I wouldn't have given him a 5 year deal, however I can understand why we did. But now he's got it, I think we have to trust his methods and continue to back the man for a large percentage of that contract, assuming we don't decline and things go tits up.

However I am not going to show blind faith for the sake of that. People started doing that under Houiller, where any slight criticism and they would be shot down for not supporting the manager.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:39 am

stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:Arsenal have rebuilt the whole squad while Rafa's been Liverpool manager, from top to bottom and haven't spent any money.

Where does this myth come from? So £18m for Reyes, £12m for Walcott, £12m for Nasri, £8m for Sagna, £8.5m for Adebayor, £14m for Arshavin, £5m for Ramsey constitutes no money these days does it?

Anyway back to Liverpool. I am fully behind Rafa and I like his methods. I think he's doing a very good job under tough circumstances. However there will come a time, when we have to say enough is enough as we need to win trophies and I am merely asking the question when fans think that time should be.

Personally I wouldn't have given him a 5 year deal, however I can understand why we did. But now he's got it, I think we have to trust his methods and continue to back the man for a large percentage of that contract, assuming we don't decline and things go tits up.

However I am not going to show blind faith for the sake of that. People started doing that under Houiller, where any slight criticism and they would be shot down for not supporting the manager.

Mick they've sold a couple of players too. Like I say, where's s@int when you need him as it's been posted more than once all the ins and outs, Arsenal are something of a special case.

I'm intersted in your last paragraph, I could have written that. The worst part about it is I probably did

Just kidding mate

by **GYBS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:49 am

a lot of arsenal fans think wengers time is coming up - they havent won anything since 2004 i think it is now .

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:59 am

This three years without a trophy issue is an interesting one. On the one hand, I agree that, for a club of our pedigree and talent, that's a bit of a longish barren spell. On the other hand, I'd rather have a year of winning nothing if it meant we took the opportunity to climb to another level in the league (the level where teams actually compete for the title all season). If this season has given Rafa and the lads a taste of the excitement and pressure of a proper title challenge and if those experiences are cemented as a platform from which to launch even better challenges in the years to come, I won't bemoan missing out on silverware this time out. After all, if given the choice, I'd rather the lads be blooded in a proper title challenge than go out and win the Carling Cup. Some may disagree, as the goal of a top football club is obviously to put silverware in the trophy case every season but I think some short-term sacrifice is acceptable if it makes long-term success more likely. The only caveat, of course, is that this season not be a blip. If it's truly a platform for future challenges then it will count as a very good season despite the lack of trophies. If, however, we slide backward next season and are off the title challenging pace once more, this season will be considered the year that might have been and looked at as a major disappointment.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:59 am

To be totally honest I'm not really sure why anybody is overly concerned with Arsenal in any case. FWIW I think if they sacked Wenger after all he has achieved and is achieving for them, it would be utter madness and I've no doubt it won't happen. All that said, I couldn't overly give a feck either way if I'm honest.

I've noticed the Arsenal comparison creeping in a little bit over the last wee while, and no doubt it's a pre-emptive strike as a potential excuse in the future should we not win the league this season and not fly out of the blocks next.

For my part I don't really care about matching Arsenal if the aren't winning trophies either. It doeswn't make me feel better that while man Utd are going for the quadruple this season, and a hat trick of premiership wins which will match our league title total, we are in danger of winning the same amount as Arsenal.

It has no relevence to our situation whatsoever, and as I said if somebody posts up some stats on it their situation what with building a new stadium and working within a tight budget is entirely different to ours. Managers of Liverpool Football Club need to be winning trophies. Thankfully we are finally looking like we have grasped the essentials which will enable us to give ourselves a chance from now on. They're very important lessons, it's just a shame it took us quite so long to learn them.

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:02 pm

stmichael wrote:Where does this myth come from? So £18m for Reyes, £12m for Walcott, £12m for Nasri, £8m for Sagna, £8.5m for Adebayor, £14m for Arshavin, £5m for Ramsey constitutes no money these days does it?

very good point

Wenger is protected by his premier league winner armour, but it's gleam has faded badly

Arshavin was a good buy though, and may be enough to convince some of their big players to stay a bit longer. They 're still a v good team and obviously with a bit of investment could be challengers :angry:

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:06 pm

bigmick wrote:To be totally honest I'm not really sure why anybody is overly concerned with Arsenal in any case. FWIW I think if they sacked Wenger after all he has achieved and is achieving for them, it would be utter madness and I've no doubt it won't happen. All that said, I couldn't overly give a feck either way if I'm honest.

I've noticed the Arsenal comparison creeping in a little bit over the last wee while, and no doubt it's a pre-emptive strike as a potential excuse in the future should we not win the league this season and not fly out of the blocks next.

For my part I don't really care about matching Arsenal if the aren't winning trophies either. It doeswn't make me feel better that while man Utd are going for the quadruple this season, and a hat trick of premiership wins which will match our league title total, we are in danger of winning the same amount as Arsenal.

It has no relevence to our situation whatsoever, and as I said if somebody posts up some stats on it their situation what with building a new stadium and working within a tight budget is entirely different to ours. Managers of Liverpool Football Club need to be winning trophies. Thankfully we are finally looking like we have grasped the essentials which will enable us to give ourselves a chance from now on. They're very important lessons, it's just a shame it took us quite so long to learn them.

The difference between us and Arsenal is that we are better than we were three years ago in terms of the quality of players at the club and our league challenge. Arsenal have regressed in my opinion.

This season has been much more impressive than recent ones in terms of the league - this time in recents years we have been looking at cup competitions and the league was long out of our reach. As Tomkins (love him or hate him) pointed out, very few teams have ever jumped from fourth place one season to champions the next. This season should stand us in good stead for next year. One or two additions to the squad, and keeping Gerrard and Torres fit next year could well see us finish as champions.

In terms of trophies, I don't necessraily believe that they are the best measurement of how a team is progressing. Points, goals scored, style of play and results against those around you are the yardsticks for progression - if not necessarily success. I would love to see us win the title this year, that goes without saying, but I would not see the season as a write-off if we do not end up with any silverware at the end of it. However if we went another 2 or 3 years without winning anything then questions would have to be asked.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:09 pm

DrPepe wrote:
stmichael wrote:Where does this myth come from? So £18m for Reyes, £12m for Walcott, £12m for Nasri, £8m for Sagna, £8.5m for Adebayor, £14m for Arshavin, £5m for Ramsey constitutes no money these days does it?

very good point

For somebody who likes his stats Doc I would have thought you'd have wanted to get the full picture rather than taking these purchases at face value

It's probably wise to consider how many players they've sold as well, and for how much. Might be an idea then to compare that to the other clubs, and also to compare how many players each of the big four still have in their teams from when Rafa started managing Liverpool, and how many Arsenal have.

My guess is that if anybody could be bothered with all that, they'd discover that Arsenal have spent considerably less than any of the big four over the last five seasons. They'd also discover that Wenger has completely changed the first team since he built the "invincibles" team, once more for a relative song.

Anyways like I say, has no effect on us whatsoever.

by **DrPepe** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:17 pm

bigmick wrote:For somebody who likes his stats Doc I would have thought you'd have wanted to get the full picture rather than taking these purchases at face value

what makes you think i did that?

basically Arsenal have rebuilt the whole squad while Rafa's been Liverpool manager, from top to bottom and haven't spent any money.

is that the full picture?

by **tubby** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:22 pm

bigmick wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
stmichael wrote:Where does this myth come from? So £18m for Reyes, £12m for Walcott, £12m for Nasri, £8m for Sagna, £8.5m for Adebayor, £14m for Arshavin, £5m for Ramsey constitutes no money these days does it?

very good point

For somebody who likes his stats Doc I would have thought you'd have wanted to get the full picture rather than taking these purchases at face value It's probably wise to consider how many players they've sold as well, and for how much. Might be an idea then to compare that to the other clubs, and also to compare how many players each of the big four still have in their teams from when Rafa started managing Liverpool, and how many Arsenal have.

My guess is that if anybody could be bothered with all that, they'd discover that Arsenal have spent considerably less than any of the big four over the last five seasons. They'd also discover that Wenger has completely changed the first team since he built the "invincibles" team, once more for a relative song.

Anyways like I say, has no effect on us whatsoever.

Wenger has bought really well. I wish Rafa could find these sorts of young players for low prices too.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:30 pm

It's just dumb to compare us with Arsenal or to talk of Wenger going. So, Wenger hasn't won anything in three years and this was their worst league in terms of performance for years. It's also the worse shape the team have been in for some time.

But under his management they've seriously challenged nearly every year, won the Prem three times and spent half of it hovering around the top two spot.

by **GYBS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:34 pm

low prices for youngsters thou ? 10 million for walcott ? he hasnt got them cheap mate . and for all the youngsters he has got it hasnt really improved them greatly - bar last season when they had a storming start then fell away badly other three seasons they have been fighting it out for 4th place.

wenger is a great manager but to me these days seems more focused on his kids as opposed to get in some real experience to bolster his team .

Rafa with his youngsters tried the wenger method - getting them before they turn 18 and seeing if any turn into gems whilst also trying to improve the first team - yes we only really have three players from when rafa first took over - the reason why ? because those players finished 30 -40 points of the title winners so they werent good enough .
If wenger has had to rebuild his squad so has rafa - who considering the results over the 5 seasons is doing a better job ? Rafa - One CL , CL final plus CC Final plus semis in CL - 5th place ,3rd place ,3rd Place ,4th Place and wherever we end up this season . Arsenal - No trophies but CL final and CC Final ? 2nd/3rd ? 4th place 4th place 3rd and wherever they end up this season ? my stats maybe wrong so please feel free correct me .

For the first couple of seasons i beleive in the league we were competeing against Arsenal for 3rd/4th place but this year we have progressed to compete for the title against Man Utd and Chelsea where as Arsenal are fightiing for 4th place with Villa and Everton . As Bob said we have to use this platform (whatever happens from now till end of season) to progress even further and win the thing - we must use our money wisely during the summer and build on the confidence gained and experince gained to believe we can beat those guys to the title . Man Utd will no doubt once again add a big signing or two to their squad so will improve once again and who knows what will happen with chelsea - if they keep hiddink then they will improve also .

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