Tomkins: reds are coming up the hill - Latest musings........

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby fivecups » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:55 pm

Owzat wrote:S@int - you're over the hill, what's up there and can you see the reds coming?

No matter what we do, we still need teams to do us favours. Maybe we'll run it close, maybe we'll win it, but I know if we come close then we'll look back regretting silly dropped points. Half a dozen home games dropping two points, all of them winnable. No prizes for second place, no guarantees we'll get as good a chance next season, or the season after that, or..........................

:D  :D Very clever Owzat!
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:16 am

:laugh: Not quite over the hill yet Owzat but getting there mate :D
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Postby kazza » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:01 am

s@int wrote:Never Walk Alone? Liverpool chiefs are pulling in different directions  By Brian Reade 31/01/2009


The people at the top of Liverpool Football Club never tire of telling the world how special their fans are.

They’re fond of quoting, even miming, those famous Rodgers and Hammerstein lyrics about never walking alone. But behind the sentimental smokescreen lie warring factions so obsessed with personal victory they long ago ceased to care about the misery they’re piling on those same fans.

From the team-sheets to the balance-sheets, from the manager’s head to the owners’ objectives, Kopites no longer have a clue what’s going on at Anfield.

At the very point in history when the club cries out for unity, the blows from above rain down harder.

It’s as though Manchester United being one title away from equalling their own record of 18 has made the management more intent on playing out their civil war.

As though Liverpool’s seven-week presence at the top of the table didn’t just give their fans a chance to rekindle past glories, it gave the men in charge a platform to cement their own futures.

The absentee American cowboys are only united in one goal: To suck as much money out of Anfield and forget they ever heard of the place.

The life president and the chief executive are lame ducks, wallowing in the shame of selling the club so badly and so cheaply. And an increasingly stubborn manager, who refuses to sign a new contract until he’s handed full control of all football matters, seems more intent on all-out attacks on Rick Parry than opposing teams.

There’s schisms and plotting, lying and leaks, inexplicable outbursts and bizarre decisions wholly unbefitting a great club which is now five months away from being repossessed by banks. And in between are a group of players, some awaiting new contracts, others acceptance, many simply bemused at what’s going on around them.

Forget the awful draws, the anti-Fergie rant and the Press leak which forced the Kuwaitis to walk away in anger, what most sums up this unseemly shambles is the treatment of Robbie Keane.

Last summer, Benitez fancied him, but not as much as he fancied Gareth Barry. Parry fancied Keane so badly he paid over the odds, leaving Benitez without sufficient cash for Barry, and fuming.

Almost from day one Keane has felt unwanted, a feeling confirmed by regular substitutions, exclusion from the team and eventually, in a home derby, from the bench. And this week he’s all but been encouraged to leave.

So instead of watching a proven striker winning games, the fans stare dumbfounded at a £20million pawn in a long-running power struggle. Nothing exposes the divisions at the heart of the club more.

I’ve been a staunch supporter of Benitez and I still believe he can make Liverpool great again. I even think he can win a trophy this season.

But right now he seems so hell-bent on winning his own personal battles he’s alienating everyone around him. 
Tomorrow Tom Hicks and George Gillett will sit a dozen seats apart in the directors’ box, in some fake show of love for a club they’re killing. Equally distant will be Benitez and Parry.

No doubt, if Liverpool win, all will try to claim credit, when it will probably be down to a flash of brilliance from the usual suspects and the passion of the fans they claim are so special.

Well here’s a message from one of them: This year sees the 50th anniversary of Bill Shankly’s arrival at Anfield and the creation of modern Liverpool.

Never in his worst nightmare would he have envisaged his precious club being run in such a destructive and undignified manner.

You love Liverpool? Put away your egos and prove it.




A good article by Brian Reade

Balanced?? I'm not so sure Saint.
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Postby Sabre » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:42 am

Bad Bob wrote:Tomkins clearly has a strong agenda in these columns.  How many times has he made passing comments about 'reading Kuyt bashers' or 'hearing about how much money we've spent'?  He says that kind of stuff loads and it suggests that his columns are intended to be a happy clappy counterpoint to some of the doom and gloom stuff he no doubt encounters on RAWK or whatever other LFC boards he haunts these days.  That's fine because he makes his points well (and without abuse!) but he's undoubtedly selective in his presentation.  Add to that the fact that his opinions get posted on the club's official website and I can see why some people might get a little vexed about his journalistic integrity.  Although, to be fair, he has published several books on Liverpool so he's hardly just some bloke who posts on message boards (like the rest of us mugs!).  Personally, I think .tv should hire Big Mick to write a counterpoint column.  That way, both pros and antis would get their views represented on the official site and we'd see a very fascinating debate.

I don't think the official website should host criticism officially, and I'm not talking about Rafa, but any manager in any club. That is, if the next manager doesn't convince me, whoever he is, I wouldn't expect any column talking about the weaknesses in a football club's website. Not in LFC, not in any European club.

Often happy clappy, correct me if I'm wrong Bob, is used as "unrealistic and blind", "unable to see the things in a balanced way".

Well IMHO many of those who use that word in that sense are not more balanced than anyone, they also have feeelings of their own, for instance motivated by how tired they are of waiting for a title.

But in a club's site, there has to be exist support to that club, and yes, support often implies a bias towards your team. That is, I've seen playing Figo on the right and other skillful players, I appreciate quality in a winger, I know Kuyt is not that quality, but I wouldn't write in the club's web site that Kuyt is not that good. Rather, I'd support him while he's here, enhancing his good things, and minimising his bad things. The point being, Kuyt will never be Figo, but if we support him instead of slagging him, we'll get the best out of him, which is the point. An article in the offa saying his controls are not good might be "balanced" in terms of football, but totally out of place if written in the offa. There are other places for objective analysis.

So, what Tomkins does, that bias, is perfectly normal IMHO, as the "kuyt Bashers" has really gone too far in the stick, and I find ok Tomkins enhances Kuyt's virtues. I did the same thing when I saw the lad slagged, even if I too can see he's no Figo.

My point? some "bias" towards your club is normal, and expectable and shouldn't be ridiculed, as what's ridiculous from a football club point of view is not to have it. I may think that I want someone for the right next season, but in the mean time I'll praise Kuyt whenever I can praise him.
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Postby supersub » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:15 am

s@int wrote:Never Walk Alone? Liverpool chiefs are pulling in different directions  By Brian Reade 31/01/2009


The people at the top of Liverpool Football Club never tire of telling the world how special their fans are.

They’re fond of quoting, even miming, those famous Rodgers and Hammerstein lyrics about never walking alone. But behind the sentimental smokescreen lie warring factions so obsessed with personal victory they long ago ceased to care about the misery they’re piling on those same fans.

From the team-sheets to the balance-sheets, from the manager’s head to the owners’ objectives, Kopites no longer have a clue what’s going on at Anfield.

At the very point in history when the club cries out for unity, the blows from above rain down harder.

It’s as though Manchester United being one title away from equalling their own record of 18 has made the management more intent on playing out their civil war.

As though Liverpool’s seven-week presence at the top of the table didn’t just give their fans a chance to rekindle past glories, it gave the men in charge a platform to cement their own futures.

The absentee American cowboys are only united in one goal: To suck as much money out of Anfield and forget they ever heard of the place.

The life president and the chief executive are lame ducks, wallowing in the shame of selling the club so badly and so cheaply. And an increasingly stubborn manager, who refuses to sign a new contract until he’s handed full control of all football matters, seems more intent on all-out attacks on Rick Parry than opposing teams.

There’s schisms and plotting, lying and leaks, inexplicable outbursts and bizarre decisions wholly unbefitting a great club which is now five months away from being repossessed by banks. And in between are a group of players, some awaiting new contracts, others acceptance, many simply bemused at what’s going on around them.

Forget the awful draws, the anti-Fergie rant and the Press leak which forced the Kuwaitis to walk away in anger, what most sums up this unseemly shambles is the treatment of Robbie Keane.

Last summer, Benitez fancied him, but not as much as he fancied Gareth Barry. Parry fancied Keane so badly he paid over the odds, leaving Benitez without sufficient cash for Barry, and fuming.

Almost from day one Keane has felt unwanted, a feeling confirmed by regular substitutions, exclusion from the team and eventually, in a home derby, from the bench. And this week he’s all but been encouraged to leave.

So instead of watching a proven striker winning games, the fans stare dumbfounded at a £20million pawn in a long-running power struggle. Nothing exposes the divisions at the heart of the club more.

I’ve been a staunch supporter of Benitez and I still believe he can make Liverpool great again. I even think he can win a trophy this season.

But right now he seems so hell-bent on winning his own personal battles he’s alienating everyone around him. 
Tomorrow Tom Hicks and George Gillett will sit a dozen seats apart in the directors’ box, in some fake show of love for a club they’re killing. Equally distant will be Benitez and Parry.

No doubt, if Liverpool win, all will try to claim credit, when it will probably be down to a flash of brilliance from the usual suspects and the passion of the fans they claim are so special.

Well here’s a message from one of them: This year sees the 50th anniversary of Bill Shankly’s arrival at Anfield and the creation of modern Liverpool.

Never in his worst nightmare would he have envisaged his precious club being run in such a destructive and undignified manner.

You love Liverpool? Put away your egos and prove it.




A good article by Brian Reade

Not being a happy clapper or whinger, I fully endorse Brian Reade's perspective on LFC and his views on national and world politics as well.
       I also think Tomkins occassionally writes an interesting piece.
     I believe Benitez signing his new contract was the best thing for my club and having full control of the footballing matters at Anfield will only help further our ambitions, much the same way it was for Shankly,Paisley etc.

Any way I have more important things to be getting on with so cheerio for now
THERE'S A GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL TOMORROW SHINING AT THE END OF EVERY DAY.
THERE'S A GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL TOMORROW AND TOMORROW IS JUST A DREAM AWAY.
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:57 pm

supersub wrote:Not being a happy clapper or whinger, I fully endorse Brian Reade's perspective on LFC and his views on national and world politics as well.
       I also think Tomkins occassionally writes an interesting piece.
     I believe Benitez signing his new contract was the best thing for my club and having full control of the footballing matters at Anfield will only help further our ambitions, much the same way it was for Shankly,Paisley etc.

Any way I have more important things to be getting on with so cheerio for now

Not being a happy clapper or whinger either, I am glad you liked Reade's post.

I can't say I enjoy many of Tomkins articles myself.

I believe that Rafa's contract should have been discussed at the end of the season not half way through, especially at a critical time in the season. I believe it probably took peoples eye off the ball and may have played some part in our poor performances between when it was brought to the fore and finally being agreed.

As for Shankly and Paisley, to my certain knowledge neither Shankly or Paisley had full control of footballing matters. What they did have was a working relationship with the board, but even so there where many occasions when the board were at odds with Shankly. e.g. Shankly wanted to buy Gordon Banks, a fee and contract was agreed in principle with the club and the player, only for the Liverpool board to refuse to pay so much for a goalkeeper.

Paisley had a well documented way of making a list of potential targets that he submitted to the board. The board then attempted to sign a couple of the players on the list (or not)

bye for now
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Postby taff » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:16 pm

Shankly resigned/threatened to on a few occasions as he wanted more control.  He had to as the club was behind. 

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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:27 pm

taff wrote:Shankly resigned/threatened to on a few occasions as he wanted more control.  He had to as the club was behind. 

Remind you of somebody

As far as I remember Shankly never ever mentioned it to the media, never ever started arguing over his contract in public. Never ever told his players not to sign a new contract until he had sorted his out.   

Course thats just how I remember things Taff. So no not really mate.

The truth is Taff, I don't really trust Rafa. Thats the top and bottom of it as far as I am concerned. For those that do , I think thats great. I just think I should be allowed my doubts without being seen as a lesser fan, or being abused because I express my doubts. .
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Postby GYBS » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:46 pm

s@int wrote:
taff wrote:Shankly resigned/threatened to on a few occasions as he wanted more control.  He had to as the club was behind. 

Remind you of somebody

As far as I remember Shankly never ever mentioned it to the media, never ever started arguing over his contract in public. Never ever told his players not to sign a new contract until he had sorted his out.   

Course thats just how I remember things Taff. So no not really mate.

The truth is Taff, I don't really trust Rafa. Thats the top and bottom of it as far as I am concerned. For those that do , I think thats great. I just think I should be allowed my doubts without being seen as a lesser fan, or being abused because I express my doubts. .

Things were a bit different back then when it comes to the media and press conferences and managers responsibilities and the fact they have to speak to the press plus different owners . If shanks was in the same boat as Rafa right now i would expect he owuld of done the same thing as Rafa
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:55 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
taff wrote:Shankly resigned/threatened to on a few occasions as he wanted more control.  He had to as the club was behind. 

Remind you of somebody

As far as I remember Shankly never ever mentioned it to the media, never ever started arguing over his contract in public. Never ever told his players not to sign a new contract until he had sorted his out.   

Course thats just how I remember things Taff. So no not really mate.

The truth is Taff, I don't really trust Rafa. Thats the top and bottom of it as far as I am concerned. For those that do , I think thats great. I just think I should be allowed my doubts without being seen as a lesser fan, or being abused because I express my doubts. .

Things were a bit different back then when it comes to the media and press conferences and managers responsibilities and the fact they have to speak to the press plus different owners . If shanks was in the same boat as Rafa right now i would expect he owuld of done the same thing as Rafa

I doubt that very much mate, Paisley worked for years without a contract and had to be persuaded to finally accept one.I cannot remember one occasion when Shankly ever brought up his contract during a season (or any time in truth) so I have no idea if Shankly ever even had a contract, but I presume he must have.

Things were different then, but IMO Shankly put Liverpool first, and as I have said I have doubts about Rafa.
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Postby GYBS » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:58 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
taff wrote:Shankly resigned/threatened to on a few occasions as he wanted more control.  He had to as the club was behind. 

Remind you of somebody

As far as I remember Shankly never ever mentioned it to the media, never ever started arguing over his contract in public. Never ever told his players not to sign a new contract until he had sorted his out.   

Course thats just how I remember things Taff. So no not really mate.

The truth is Taff, I don't really trust Rafa. Thats the top and bottom of it as far as I am concerned. For those that do , I think thats great. I just think I should be allowed my doubts without being seen as a lesser fan, or being abused because I express my doubts. .

Things were a bit different back then when it comes to the media and press conferences and managers responsibilities and the fact they have to speak to the press plus different owners . If shanks was in the same boat as Rafa right now i would expect he owuld of done the same thing as Rafa

I doubt that very much mate, Paisley worked for years without a contract and had to be persuaded to finally accept one.I cannot remember one occasion when Shankly ever brought up his contract during a season (or any time in truth) so I have no idea if Shankly ever even had a contract, but I presume he must have.

Things were different then, but IMO Shankly put Liverpool first, and as I have said I have doubts about Rafa.

And Rafa puts Liverpool First IMO and wants to do what he thinks is best for Liverpool hence why he wanted what he got and why he went about it - it may not be to everyones taste but im pretty sure he did it for the benefit of the club and not the benefit of him
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:05 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
taff wrote:Shankly resigned/threatened to on a few occasions as he wanted more control.  He had to as the club was behind. 

Remind you of somebody

As far as I remember Shankly never ever mentioned it to the media, never ever started arguing over his contract in public. Never ever told his players not to sign a new contract until he had sorted his out.   

Course thats just how I remember things Taff. So no not really mate.

The truth is Taff, I don't really trust Rafa. Thats the top and bottom of it as far as I am concerned. For those that do , I think thats great. I just think I should be allowed my doubts without being seen as a lesser fan, or being abused because I express my doubts. .

Things were a bit different back then when it comes to the media and press conferences and managers responsibilities and the fact they have to speak to the press plus different owners . If shanks was in the same boat as Rafa right now i would expect he owuld of done the same thing as Rafa

I doubt that very much mate, Paisley worked for years without a contract and had to be persuaded to finally accept one.I cannot remember one occasion when Shankly ever brought up his contract during a season (or any time in truth) so I have no idea if Shankly ever even had a contract, but I presume he must have.

Things were different then, but IMO Shankly put Liverpool first, and as I have said I have doubts about Rafa.

And Rafa puts Liverpool First IMO and wants to do what he thinks is best for Liverpool hence why he wanted what he got and why he went about it - it may not be to everyones taste but im pretty sure he did it for the benefit of the club and not the benefit of him

And that is where we differ. I fail to see how it could possibly be of benefit to Liverpool fc to publicly keep asking for and then refusing contracts, at a crucial time in our season.

I also fail to see how it could possibly be to the benefit of Liverpool football club to tell players not to sign new contracts.

I also fail to see how it could possibly be to the benefit of Liverpool football club to sell a player and leave us with no credible replacement.

I can however see how those acts could be of benefit to Rafa.
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Postby GYBS » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:08 pm

Then we will agree to disagree.
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Postby taff » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:36 pm

Saint you of course are entitled to a view without facing abuse but I still disagree with you  :D

What gets me is posts like Heimdell where he says he will abuse Rafa if things dont work out next season, thats not support as we know it.  We cannot demand anything as we havent won the league for 18 years and the league and the game are entirely different these days.

I share your concerns for some aspscts of Rafas behaviour but he has given me hope and belief in the club that was in all honesty slipping downwards
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Postby zarababe » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:53 pm

supersub wrote:
s@int wrote:
supersub wrote:A very good article which doesn't appear to have brought any response from the "Rafa out brigade"....

We are still stunned that Tomkins can go through the whole team and yet fail to mention that we have no credible replacement for Torres, and this fact alone has cost us points this season.

I have posted a lot of Monty Python quotes in the last few days but Tomkins makes their song "Always look on the bright side of life" seem quite negative and depressing compared to his articles.

Blind, deluded, biased and totally inaccurate rubbish, are just some of the words that spring to mind where Tomkins is concerned. 

:D

Well perhaps for a more balanced assessment of Liverpool Fc and recent events may I point you in the direction of Brian Reade. It still won't make good reading for the miserable sh.its that like to show an affinity to Liverpool, without having to give any real support.
           :;):

:nod absolutley - to think that this place is akin to a
Mancs site for Liverpool Supporters sometimes, is astonishing. You'd think they'd all completed their coaching badges the way they go on ... Rafa out this bunch 'of know-it-alls IN'  :glare:

WELL IT'S DEFO GAME ON NOW - A BIT OF BELIEF WON'T GO A-MISS - IF YA WITNESSED THE MIRACLE OF ISTANBUL - YOU'LL KNOW THE FIGHT FOR THE TITLE IS DEFO ON NOW  :buttrock
THE BRENDAN REVOLUTION IS UPON US !

KING KENNY.. Always LEGEND !

RAFA.. MADE THE PEOPLE HAPPY !

Miss YOU Phil-Drummer - RIP YNWA

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