Liverpool FC Forum

by **kazza** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:29 am

lakes10 wrote:just look at the amout of players Rafa has taken to our club.

I am sure Utd have had their share of players that never worked out. We never had 100 million to spend on three players.

by **lakes10** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:33 am

xabi alonso
luis garcia
reina
josemi
crouch
morientes -
sissoko
zenden
carson
kromkamp
agger
barragan
hobbs
gonzalez
fowler
paletta
nunes
bellamy
voronin
benayoun
pennant
arbeloa
itandje
aurelio
insua
mascherano
lucas
kuyt
babel
leto
el zhar
pelligrino
Keane

and thats list is out of date

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:12 am

kazza wrote:
lakes10 wrote:just look at the amout of players Rafa has taken to our club.

I am sure Utd have had their share of players that never worked out. We never had 100 million to spend on three players.

Ok, what (big money) signing have they signed in the last three or four seasons that haven't worked out?

08/09 : Berbatov, Tosic, Ljajic, Fabio, Rafael, Possebon
07/08 : Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Kuszczak, Tevez
06/07 : Carrick
05/06 : Park, Foster, Vidic, Evra

Not all big money, Hargreaves has not looked a great buy and that was a mistake. Once they signed Carrick they should have given up the chase for Hargreaves, Carrick was doing a good enough job and Hargreaves was an expensive luxury buy

Their days of big flops are looking a distant memory. Even some of the kids they are bringing in are looking pretty good. Probably Dong (£500k) didn't work out, maybe Bellion, as well as Hargreaves arguably, but I think it's one or two and we're constantly slating Dossena, Lucas, Kuyt, N'Gog, Babel, Degen and that's just a few spring readily to mind (probably most if not all, but still more than the mancs) Pennant and Voronin may well be out the door, I think we've cleared a few flops signed since Rafa got here as well.

Worrying thing is the mancs have a fair few young players who look good, Vidic, Evra, Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Carrick and Berbatov are still comfortably short of 30 and they're clear at the top.

by **GYBS** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:14 am

He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:15 am

GYBS wrote:He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

And how long ago was that? We can't keep saying fergie is as bad as Rafa when fergie doesn't do it any more and Rafa does.

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:16 am

Prophet mode:

This thread will last forever, it won't change the opinion of the participants in the slightest.

Which is nice as long as this long discussions don't go to other threads such as the centre backs one.

by **GYBS** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:17 am

Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

And how long ago was that? We can't keep saying fergie is as bad as Rafa when fergie doesn't do it any more and Rafa does.

And how long has taggert been in the job ? he bought those players in a 3 -4 year period .

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:28 am

GYBS wrote:
Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

And how long ago was that? We can't keep saying fergie is as bad as Rafa when fergie doesn't do it any more and Rafa does.

And how long has taggert been in the job ? he bought those players in a 3 -4 year period .

So we give Rafa 23 years? You say fergie has made more mistakes and highlight how he's done it over a long period of time - hardly a like for like comparison, let alone a worthwhile time period to compare them in. Of course he's going to have made more mistakes, bound to having made more purchases. But fergie has the money to make mistakes, Rafa doesn't and yet he makes too many. I left out Keane, just thinking of the £40m spent in the summer only £8m plus maybe N'Gog looks worth it.

There's no point dragging up ancient history, fergie spends more and is right more often. He has made mistakes, I've not said he hasn't. But of those buys only Veron cost a lot. Morientes cost more than Kleberson. Veron was a long time ago, an expensive mistake. Comparitively speaking was it any bigger a mistake than Keane? Even (some) manc fans will admit Veron had some good games, they watched more of their side than I'd ever want to so go get their view on Veron. And they can afford to waste £28.1m, they got £15m for him so he couldn't have been that big a disaster.

Forlan cost £7.5m, spent most of his time coming off the bench and left in 2004 as Rafa arrived. Does that cancel out Bellamy or Morientes as a flop if you insist on counting it? He survived two seasons which is more than most Liverpool strikers do.

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:31 am

Sabre wrote:Prophet mode:

This thread will last forever, it won't change the opinion of the participants in the slightest.

Which is nice as long as this long discussions don't go to other threads such as the centre backs one.

Not sure it will "last forever", the second Rafa leaves Anfield it will disappear and only be resurrected when some sad individual digs it up (if at all)

But one the opinion changing part, I think people will change their views. Always starts with a few thinking the manager should go, then it becomes some, then a growing minority, then an even split and eventually a majority. We're probably at 2-1 in favour of the boss staying at the moment, reckon it won't take much of next season to swing that even split or beyond

by **GYBS** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:35 am

Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

And how long ago was that? We can't keep saying fergie is as bad as Rafa when fergie doesn't do it any more and Rafa does.

And how long has taggert been in the job ? he bought those players in a 3 -4 year period .

So we give Rafa 23 years? You say fergie has made more mistakes and highlight how he's done it over a long period of time - hardly a like for like comparison, let alone a worthwhile time period to compare them in. Of course he's going to have made more mistakes, bound to having made more purchases. But fergie has the money to make mistakes, Rafa doesn't and yet he makes too many. I left out Keane, just thinking of the £40m spent in the summer only £8m plus maybe N'Gog looks worth it.

There's no point dragging up ancient history, fergie spends more and is right more often. He has made mistakes, I've not said he hasn't. But of those buys only Veron cost a lot. Morientes cost more than Kleberson. Veron was a long time ago, an expensive mistake. Comparitively speaking was it any bigger a mistake than Keane? Even (some) manc fans will admit Veron had some good games, they watched more of their side than I'd ever want to so go get their view on Veron. And they can afford to waste £28.1m, they got £15m for him so he couldn't have been that big a disaster.

Forlan cost £7.5m, spent most of his time coming off the bench and left in 2004 as Rafa arrived. Does that cancel out Bellamy or Morientes as a flop if you insist on counting it? He survived two seasons which is more than most Liverpool strikers do.

whoa hold on there - where did i say Taggert has made more mistakes than Rafa ? didnt suggest anything of the sort , lets not be putting words into my mouth. Was just pointing out that Taggert has made some shocking signings in the past and he hasnt got everything right .When he has up to and prob more than 30 mil to spend on each player he will get it right most of the time .

by **Flight** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:39 am

lakes10 wrote:
kazza wrote:Progress under Raffa?

How about top rated team in Europe!

He done that in his first year here, what has he done since then.

last night changes nothing for me, nor a win at the weekend.

Rafa needs to show me that we can win the prem, by this he needs to beat small teams well, something he has never been able to do.

I think he summed it up for me a few weeks ago when he said something like "its unfair that teams come here and just sit back and take the draw"

Well Man U and other teams have found a way to breake this new way of playing down, if we had beat all the small teams this year we would have won the prem a few weeks ago.

You're wrong. we are the top rated team in Europe by EUFA. That doesn't mean winning the CL - he didn't do it in his first year here. It is rated over the last 5 years performances. For LFC that means from exactly when Rafa got here.

We are the team rated no 1 in Europe for the first time since 1985 and Heysel.

The people who are knocking Rafas spending on players are not in touch with reality. We have 3 players left from Geds side, that Rafa took over - the rest were either very poor or crocked. Rafa has had to find two players for every position on the pitch.

His net spend is just over £100mill and includes Torres, Xabi, Mascha. So he has had to fill the team with an average spend of £4mill per player. (And thats ignoring youth and reserve purchases). There isn't a manager in the world who could have done any better than Rafa.

Of course Mr Ferguson doesn't get many buys wrong these days. He can throw £30mill a player, if he wants to.

The main point is this - last night against Real was as close as you will get to our first choice 11 players. Our first 11-14 players ARE good enough to win the Prem. The rest of the squad aren't. If we went without injuries we would be playing like that in the Prem game in, game out.

For the first time in 20 years I'm happy and confident about our first 11. Every year for 20 years the talk has been about finding 'the last piece of the jigsaw'. Well, the jigsaw is finally complete. Now the talk can be about building the rest of the squad capable of winning the Prem.

by **loopyliverpool** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:45 am

Last night was a top performance, best of the season by far but, lets put it in perspective. Firstly, although way on top the first two goals were highly dubious and secondly Real are not a good team. For me winning all of those drawn games in the league is a better barometer on how far we have improved under Rafa, which is not a great deal! If we get a result against Man U on Sat playing like we did last night I would be delighted and would have to question why Rafa hasn't been more attacking against inferior opposition more often.

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:45 am

GYBS wrote:
Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

And how long ago was that? We can't keep saying fergie is as bad as Rafa when fergie doesn't do it any more and Rafa does.

And how long has taggert been in the job ? he bought those players in a 3 -4 year period .

So we give Rafa 23 years? You say fergie has made more mistakes and highlight how he's done it over a long period of time - hardly a like for like comparison, let alone a worthwhile time period to compare them in. Of course he's going to have made more mistakes, bound to having made more purchases. But fergie has the money to make mistakes, Rafa doesn't and yet he makes too many. I left out Keane, just thinking of the £40m spent in the summer only £8m plus maybe N'Gog looks worth it.

There's no point dragging up ancient history, fergie spends more and is right more often. He has made mistakes, I've not said he hasn't. But of those buys only Veron cost a lot. Morientes cost more than Kleberson. Veron was a long time ago, an expensive mistake. Comparitively speaking was it any bigger a mistake than Keane? Even (some) manc fans will admit Veron had some good games, they watched more of their side than I'd ever want to so go get their view on Veron. And they can afford to waste £28.1m, they got £15m for him so he couldn't have been that big a disaster.

Forlan cost £7.5m, spent most of his time coming off the bench and left in 2004 as Rafa arrived. Does that cancel out Bellamy or Morientes as a flop if you insist on counting it? He survived two seasons which is more than most Liverpool strikers do.

whoa hold on there - where did i say Taggert has made more mistakes than Rafa ? didnt suggest anything of the sort , lets not be putting words into my mouth. Was just pointing out that Taggert has made some shocking signings in the past and he hasnt got everything right .When he has up to and prob more than 30 mil to spend on each player he will get it right most of the time .

You're going back in time, that you have to go that far back means you're giving fergie at least twice as many years in which to make mistakes so he's bound to make more mistakes in a longer time period. If he's made as many or fewer mistakes than Rafa in a longer period then where's your case? Are you saying Rafa makes more mistakes, or just getting indignant like a big girl's blouse

Rafa has had £20m+ to spend twice and made one mistake, how many times has fergie made a mistake paying £20m+ ? Once perchance. You can't have it both ways, noone is denying fergie has been able to buy more £20m+ players, but that doesn't mean Rafa can waste money and not be held accountable. £20.3m on Keane, £7m on Dossena, wanted to pay £18m for Barry, £11.5m on Babel, £6m on Bellamy etc etc. Rafa may spend less, he may not quite have a £28.1m mistake on his hands, but he's already sold 1/3 of the players he's bought and they lasted an average of just under two seasons. That's hardly getting it right.

As for the topic in hand, how is going from 5th to 3rd to 3rd to 4th progress? Or points totals going from 58 to 82 to 68 to 76? More like one step forward, one step back or to quote Maxine Nightingale "Right Back To Where We Started From"

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:51 am

Owzat wrote:
Sabre wrote:Prophet mode:

This thread will last forever, it won't change the opinion of the participants in the slightest.

Which is nice as long as this long discussions don't go to other threads such as the centre backs one.

Not sure it will "last forever", the second Rafa leaves Anfield it will disappear and only be resurrected when some sad individual digs it up (if at all)

Are you saying that the ones talking about another manager when the team are struggling will be sad individuals?

Does that make you a sad individual now, then?

Of course people will change opinions depending on results. Of course majorities can change.

But don't fool yourself, it won't be your convincing power nor numbers, but results. :;):

by **Flight** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:52 am

As an aside, I don't know if this was linked on here. Its the front page of Marca from yesterday. The headline basically says, 'This is Anfield. So what - nothing special.'

from Nando in todays Marca :

Fernando Torres se mostró muy satisfecho por la victoria del Liverpool. "Hemos mostrado por qué esto es Anfield, ya que no es un campo cualquiera", aseguró.

Torres was very satisfied with Liverpool's win and said "Today we demonstrated why This is Anfield, now they know why it isn't just any other ground"

Liverpool FC Forum

Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Who is online