Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:55 am

I was wondering if Rafa's record in charge of Valencia was much different to, or improved on, his record at Liverpool, whether he won more games etc.

Rafael Benitez : 01/02 - 07/08

LEAGUE

01/02 1st : P38 W21 D12 L5 F51 A27 PTS 75 (Won 55.26%)
02/03 5th : P38 W17 D9 L12 F56 A35 PTS 60 (Won 44.74%)
03/04 1st : P38 W23 D8 L7 F71 A27 PTS 77 (Won 60.53%)
04/05 5th : P38 W17 D7 L14 F52 A41 PTS 58 (Won 44.74%)
05/06 3rd : P38 W25 D7 L6 F57 A25 PTS 82 (Won 65.79%)
06/07 3rd : P38 W20 D8 L10 F57 A27 PTS 68 (Won 52.63%)
07/08 4th : P38 W21 D13 L4 F67 A28 PTS 76 (Won 55.26%)

Valencia : P114 W61 D29 L24 F178 A89 (P/G 1.86, Won 53.51%)
Liverpool : P152 W83 D35 L34 F233 A121 (P/G 1.87, Won 54.61%)

Goals per game is 1.56 at Valencia, 1.53 at Liverpool. That record was enough to win two league titles with Valencia, not enough at Liverpool. More recently the teams winning the league in Spain have picked up towards 85 points, the exception 06/07 when the top two finished level on 76 points. If there are more "easy pickings" in the Premiership than in Spain, then it should be easier to win more games and we shouldn't draw and lose to the poor sides we do. He won 1/2 of his games against Barcelona, 1/3 of his (league) games against Real Madrid so it wasn't as if the big guns were a major problem. He could struggle as much against the likes of Tenerife, Alaves and Vallecano as he could against the better known sides. Perhaps he simply doesn't have a ruthless streak like fergie and Josie, wanting to win every game and hating losing.

EUROPE

Valencia : P36 W22 D9 L5 F62 A24 (Won 61.11%)
Liverpool : P58 W33 D12 L13 F96 A41 (Won 56.90%)

Rafa played only one season in the Champions League with Valencia, two in the UEFA Cup which would account for the slightly better record in Europe with them. He won the UEFA Cup in his final season with Valencia, reached the QF of the UEFA Cup in his first and the QF of the Champions League in his second season. So his love affair with Europe is not something new, his record in Europe with Valencia fairly closely matches his record in Europe with Liverpool and the win percentage is similar to his league record.

It's a little surprising his domestic cup record isn't better in Spain, although I gather the Copa Del Rey format is one game until a certain stage and then it becomes his favoured two-legged format. In his final season he did reach the QF only to lose to Real Madrid home and away. That said it isn't exactly two-legged ties all the way in the FA and League Cups which he's reached both finals of - though none since 05/06.

Why a new topic? I thought this was interesting and the stats would get lost in the middle of conversation if posted in an ongoing discussion - and this will doubtless spiral downwards after everyone has slated me had their say. It's not intended to be "anti-Rafa", I thought genuine Liverpool fans would find a comparison with Rafa's Valencia days interesting. Rather than just knowing he won the league title in Spain twice and a UEFA Cup, have the stats that make up that success. How many managers have come from a successful spell in Spain and followed it up with a league title in England?

by **GRAHAM01** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:03 pm

to be fair it looks like his record is every much the the same there and here

to me that just says that it is harder to win the prem league than spanish league

by **stmichael** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:34 pm

Looking back, those stats just make you realise just how good a side we were in 05/06.

by **GRAHAM01** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:44 pm

stmichael wrote:Looking back, those stats just make you realise just how good a side we were in 05/06.

and we still only finished 3rd what was that all about??

by **tubby** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:06 pm

GRAHAM01 wrote:
stmichael wrote:Looking back, those stats just make you realise just how good a side we were in 05/06.

and we still only finished 3rd what was that all about??

I think it was that season where we played :censored:

in the first month but then went on to pick up more points than Chelsea over the course of the season.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:24 pm

We also played some good attacking football in 06, and looked like with the addition of just one or two top quality additions we could progress even further the next season. We struggled to score in the first half of the season with Crouch and Morientes both having problems infront of goal, but in the second half of the season we started to score much more freely with Cisse knocking in quite a few.

Obviously having Kewell for the second half of the 06 season gave us a balance that we have struggled to match until the arrival of Riera.

Back on topic, I think its interesting to see that he drew quite a lot of games with Valencia as well and that apart from 03 and 05 his defence has always been top class. Like most successful managers Rafa builds from the back.

One other thing to note is that Valencia were not a bad side when he took them over, they had after all reached the final of the CL in the previous two seasons.

by **stmichael** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:31 pm

Also, whether you rated any of them or not, back in 05/06 our attacking options were Cisse, Crouch, Morientes, Fowler and Garcia. Compare that to the options we've got now. We also had a fit Kewell as Saint said and Sissoko was playing out of his skin.

We had two spells during that season when we had 10 League wins in a row. We were ruthless during those spells and never looked liked getting beat and strange to say it, getting dumped out of the CL by Benfica actually helped our League form. Unfortunately that summer we brought the wrong players in.

by **GRAHAM01** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:39 pm

stmichael wrote:Also, whether you rated any of them or not, back in 05/06 our attacking options were Cisse, Crouch, Morientes, Fowler and Garcia. Compare that to the options we've got now. We also had a fit Kewell as Saint said and Sissoko was playing out of his skin.

We had two spells during that season when we had 10 League wins in a row. We were ruthless during those spells and never looked liked getting beat and strange to say it, getting dumped out of the CL by Benfica actually helped our League form. Unfortunately that summer we brought the wrong players in.

the change from that season to the next was massive we just fell apart and lost so much ground, how we finished 3rd i will never know

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:46 pm

s@int wrote:Back on topic, I think its interesting to see that he drew quite a lot of games with Valencia as well and that apart from 03 and 05 his defence has always been top class. Like most successful managers Rafa builds from the back.

One other thing to note is that Valencia were not a bad side when he took them over, they had after all reached the final of the CL in the previous two seasons.

More stats methinks!

VALENCIA : 99/00-03/04

99/00 3rd : P38 W18 D10 L10 F59 A39 PTS 64 (Won 47.37%)
00/01 5th : P38 W18 D9 L11 F55 A34 PTS 63 (Won 47.37%)

01/02 1st : P38 W21 D12 L5 F51 A27 PTS 75 (Won 55.26%)
02/03 5th : P38 W17 D9 L12 F56 A35 PTS 60 (Won 44.74%)
03/04 1st : P38 W23 D8 L7 F71 A27 PTS 77 (Won 60.53%)

Interesting how exactly the same number of points resulted in going from 3rd to 5th. Pretty sure we had that 99/00 record in 02/03 under Houllier

Liverpool 02/03 : P38 W18 D10 L10 F61 A41 PTS 64
Valencia 99/00 : P38 W18 D10 L10 F59 A39 PTS 64

Spooky, two goals more for and against. We finished 5th having been unbeaten in 12 (P12 W9 D3 L0)

Not sure if winning the UEFA Cup is all that big a deal, maybe about equivalent of reaching the Champions League QFs. I looked at some of the teams Rafa beat on their way to victory in 2004 and they were pretty ordinary - Besiktas, Bordeaux, Genclerbirligi Ankara, Maccabi Haifa, AIK Solna in with Villareal (SF) and Marseille (final) How many times have any of those sides reached the semis of the CL recently?

It's fair to say Rafa improved Valencia, maybe as much as he has Liverpool except it had a much better result with two league titles.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:57 pm

Looking at those stats it makes you wonder if playing in the CL had a huge effect on their league form. All three seasons when they played in the CL they achieved low 60 points in the league.

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:11 pm

stmichael wrote:Also, whether you rated any of them or not, back in 05/06 our attacking options were Cisse, Crouch, Morientes, Fowler and Garcia. Compare that to the options we've got now.

You missed out Pongolle, maybe not prolific but he scored crucial goals as I've pointed out more than once on here (vs Luton & Betis in 05/06). He did go to Blackburn on loan but I believe that was second half of the season. Mellor was the same, but didn't play for us in 05/06

05/06 Morientes, Crouch, Cisse, Fowler, Luis Garcia, Pongolle (1/2)
06/07 Bellamy, Fowler, Kuyt, Crouch, Luis Garcia
07/08 Torres, Kuyt, Crouch, Voronin, Babel
08/09 Torres, Keane (1/2), Kuyt, N'Gog, Babel

Too keen to change the attacking line-up, excuse the pun. I don't rate Crouch as top quality, but you can't just make wholesale changes and not appreciate the squad needs. We could have, and probably should have, kept 2-3 strikers the same each season. Is it a coincidence that Cisse scored 22 goals in 05/06 (some for France) and we did well? He got a lot of flak, but then Rafa got shot.

Not one striker remains from 05/06, only Kuyt from 06/07. I wonder if we're the only Premiership club that hasn't got a striker from 05/06

We had two spells during that season when we had 10 League wins in a row. We were ruthless during those spells and never looked liked getting beat

Think it might have been 10 and 9, we were ruthless at beating the weaker sides in those two runs, something we've not done so well since. We need to beat the sides below home and more often than not away as well. The lack of striker firepower is killing our title aspirations, we can just about cope with lacking a Ronaldo, but we have Torres and not a lot compared to Berbatov, Tevez and Rooney - I'm sure we'd all swap the summer £40m spending for one of those

10 in a row : West Ham, A Villa, Portsmouth, Man City, Sunderland, Wigan, Middlesboro, Newcastle, Everton, WBA

9 in a row : Fulham, Newcastle, Everton, WBA, Bolton, Blackburn, West Ham, A Villa, Portsmouth

SIX of the same teams feature in both runs, no sign of Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea - Arsenal beat us before the run of 9 in a row, Chelsea beat us between the two runs and before the 10 in a row, Man Utd also played us before the 10 and between the two runs.

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:28 pm

s@int wrote:Looking at those stats it makes you wonder if playing in the CL had a huge effect on their league form. All three seasons when they played in the CL they achieved low 60 points in the league.

And in our CL final seasons we've managed 58 and 68 respectively. When I put that to the poll, whether it was harder to win the league now it's not just champions in the Champions League it was pretty much half and half. Not such a problem for big squads and rich clubs, very demanding on smaller squads

Must add something to the Real Madrid discussion

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:23 pm

s@int wrote:Looking at those stats it makes you wonder if playing in the CL had a huge effect on their league form. All three seasons when they played in the CL they achieved low 60 points in the league.

Its what I been saying for long time missing out on CL for 1 season would really give us a top chance to go for the league.

Of course expect GYBS on here to tell me I am wrong and how no team in prem can go with out CL football even stoke !

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:53 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
s@int wrote:Looking at those stats it makes you wonder if playing in the CL had a huge effect on their league form. All three seasons when they played in the CL they achieved low 60 points in the league.

Its what I been saying for long time missing out on CL for 1 season would really give us a top chance to go for the league.

Of course expect GYBS on here to tell me I am wrong and how no team in prem can go with out CL football even stoke !

I think it is no coincidence that no side that has finished lower than 3rd in the Premiership has gone on to win the league the next season.

Man Utd did it in 01/02, then again having won the Premiership so often they had the money and resources that 3rd was a massive blip for them. Arsenal did it in 97/98, I would guess with some conviction that the third placed team wasn't in the Champions League

*checking*

02/03 Man Utd were in the Champions League, got knocked out in the QF stage (by R.Madrid). Newcastle finished 4th in 01/02 and were also in the Champions League, not that I reckon they'd win the Premiership even if they finished 2nd the previous season.

97/98 Arsenal were in the UEFA Cup, got knocked out by PAOK Salonika in the 1st round so didn't have Europe to distract them in their title bid. 98/99 they went out in the group stages, lost the league by one point from a manc side that picked up 48 points from their last 20 games - unbeaten from Boxing day onwards, P20 W14 D6 L0 F44 A14 PTS 48. Our best last 20 games in the Premiership is 44 points, and we managed 40 on the end of last season

Last time a team won the league having finished 4th the previous season was Leeds in 91/92. Rangers knocked Leeds out in the 92/93 Champions League 2nd round. In 91/92 Leeds were not in Europe, adds more strength to my strong belief that Europe affects (new/first time) title challengers, certainly it doesn't help teams who were not in a title fight the previous season.

by **bigmick** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:04 pm

It's an interesting thread this. Some of the people who love football discussion so much ought to get in and say their piece.

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