Are liverpool the new valencia? - Rafa's plans for lfc.

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby 66-1120597113 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:12 pm

john craig wrote:Some good points Ace,

One I'd like to pick up on is the point you make about Rafa trying to make a team that may not score many but gives nothing away at the back.  I have nothing against this strategy in principle, but there is a right and a wrong way to implement these tactics.

If you cast your mind back to the start of the Houllier era, this is what he also tried to do.  We needed the defence sorted back then and he did it very well initially, by getting rid of James and bringing in the defensive diamond of Westerveld (who had a great 1st season), Hyypia, Henchoz and Hamann.  The centre halfs rarely ventured much further than the edge of their own box and we had the best defence in the premiership. However, from an attacking point of view Houllier got it all wrong.  There was never enough flair in the side and we were very one-dimensional in the way we played it over the top for Owen all the time.  We were a counter-attacking side full stop.  When teams set out to defend against us, we struggled to break them down.

I make this point because it is a very different idea that Benitez is trying to implement.  Yes, he wants to make us hard to beat and isn't bothered if only win by the odd goal, as long as we win (like Houllier).  But the way the team is set out is completely different.  We now defend much higher up the pitch and squeeze into midfield a lot more.  We sacrifice being vulnerable to balls over the top (especially with our lack of pace at the back), but to make up for that we have more control of the midfield and are better positioned to attack. 

I don't agree that we are a counter attacking side, that is not Benitez's idea, he wants to build a patient side that plays possession football.  A target man helps with this strategy which is why we've bought back-to-goal strikers like Crouch and Morientes.

All the pieces are not in place yet, but once Benitez gets all the players he wants, then the answer is yes:  we will play a style of football very similar to Valencia.  Tight at the back, good at keeping the ball, patient and clinical in front of goal.  It is the latter that separates Benitez's great Valencia side to us right now, but we'll get there.

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Postby 109-1093441336 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:24 pm

A mark of a good coach is one that can structure his defence.

You can see the Arigo Sachi method, implemented in Valenica, in liverpool now.

In one year we have perfected this and i can't see us conceding more than 25 goals in the league this season.

Attack- you can't really structure this as much. Its more a case of the players themselves inventing openings for goals. 

But with individuals rafa wants, if we can get them, we can possibly have the most balanced team seen in the prem in ages.
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Postby Paul C » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:44 pm

Yup, great teams have always been built from the back :)
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Postby The Ace1983 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:48 am

Paul C wrote:
XSD wrote:I remember Valencia as a very exciting and creative team in the CL, they made clowns of us.

Yeah me too, Aimar made Sami, etc look like sunday league muppet  :(

I wasn't refering to their European style. I was talking domestic. The way a team plays in a cup, is rarely the same way it plays in a league. Could our pathetic performance against Southampton last year be compared to the glorious team of Istanbul?

Valencia's tactics in La Liga when Rafa was around were different. He knew that he did not have the financial muscle or the fire power of Real or Barca, so he went in a different direction. As soon as they snatched a goal, they closed the doors and just stifled and countered. Not a bad idea, but is it his only one? (for the league anyway)
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Postby tubby » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:51 pm

I hope so, if theres one thing Rafa knows well its how to think tactically. He showed this in the LC  alot and this resulted us winning it but in the EPL we only showed this sometime, this was not his falut though, he was given a squad largley made up of the previous managers squad so he didnt moan he just got on with it and got the results. Hes obvioulsy leanrt that the EPL is more physical than in Europe and has shown this in his signings like Crouch and Sissoko. I generally feel we are good enough to win the CL again this season and perhaps eve finish in the top 3 given Arsenals poor start. I might be wrong though but ill tell you what theres no denying that Liverpool Football Club has a bright future ahead of it and to start it all of with a 5th European cup is even better.
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Postby jonnymac1979 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:43 pm

On tonight's first half performance against betis, if you watch the way we have the big man up front in Crouch, see John Carew for Valencia.

Watch when Betis have the ball, you will see Sissoko, Garcia, Zenden and Pongolle all floating around Crouch, supporting him and generally being a nuisance, all playing the width of the pitch across.  Sometimes it looks like we have three men up front at once.  Pongolle and Garcia are getting forward and back into position expertly.  Betis can't get through us.  The two occasions they have and Reina has been awesome with his shot stopping. 

When we are defending, they all drop back and we have a shield in front of the defence, leaving Crouch up by himself.  It's magic to watch for once, the midfield have worked their nuts off tonight and this system is working.
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Postby Paul_Poland » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:19 am

It`s not good, when coach is bringing his guys to the club.... For example EX Barca and her holland players - it was Ajax not Barca. Now we`ve got Valencia It`s a pity but It`s true I`m not saying that he`s thinking bad, couse Rafa is a great coach, but sometimes he should think about fans ( read: but Owen even if he`s not worth that money, and mabye he`ll pay it back in the future? )
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Postby mighty mo » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:34 pm

he,s only bought one player from valencia
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Postby thegreedo » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:37 pm

And he's been a bloody revalation so far!!
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Postby A.B. » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:53 pm

It`s not good, when coach is bringing his guys to the club.... For example EX Barca and her holland players - it was Ajax not Barca. Now we`ve got Valencia It`s a pity but It`s true I`m not saying that he`s thinking bad, couse Rafa is a great coach, but sometimes he should think about fans ( read: but Owen even if he`s not worth that money, and mabye he`ll pay it back in the future? )


The fans are not the manager, Benitez is. If we were to make decisions based on who the fans want we would be well bankrupt.
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Postby Paul_Poland » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:36 am

A.B. wrote:The fans are not the manager, Benitez is. If we were to make decisions based on who the fans want we would be well bankrupt.

We wouldn`t be bankrupt if You need to make a decission between 2 great players or spend some money on hot prospect.
Man Utd don`t want to spend their money on players and now they`re trying to make rotation in their squad but they`re not the same BIG Many U like few years ago ...
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:44 am

The question i ask .

Should Rafa use the same tactics that helped him become a success in Spain ?

Or

Should he adapt his tactics and change them to suit the premiership ?
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:46 am

Sorry one more point.

Does he need to change his tactics at all ?
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Postby wrighty (not mark!) » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:54 am

ooh good one.Er... I dont think he needs to change his tactics in Europe (Im hardly taking a stab in the dark there am I!) But, i think he made need to adapt his tactics slightly in the prem.Be a bit more cavalier, but judging on the cleen sheets, Im not too concerned at the moment anyway.
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Postby AlanHansen » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:07 pm

wrighty (not mark!) wrote:ooh good one.Er... I dont think he needs to change his tactics in Europe (Im hardly taking a stab in the dark there am I!) But, i think he made need to adapt his tactics slightly in the prem.Be a bit more cavalier, but judging on the cleen sheets, Im not too concerned at the moment anyway.

But chelsea won it last season by a record points total by not being cavalier. With a couple of more decent players - RM, maybe a LM and a CB we would be a great side.
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