Liverpool FC Forum

by **crazyhorse** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:08 pm

kazza wrote:
bigmick wrote:Remember, some of us said it was absolutely fecking ridiculous long before he did it. Yes we got shouted down on occasions, but we knew it then and now everyone knows it. I don't support and back stupid, mind numbingly fecking daft actions by the manager. I support Liverpool Football Club not Rafa Benitez FC, and if he behaves like a chump he and you can hardly expect people like me to agree with him.

When you have a negative outlook about a certain subject surely you will be right about half of the time (law of averages and all). Do you keep reminding us of when you were wrong with the same vigor? If I want to read the "negative" side of the argument, your posts are the ones to read. Trouble is I know what your outlook is before I even read the post which is making you pridictable, something a clever fellow such as yourself should never be. Don't lose the balance Mick.

Mick is one of the most balanced posters on here.. he could not be more objective!!

My two penny worth - we are not really any further on than we were when Rafa came..

We can beat any team on the planet on our day, but am not good enough to sustain it over a season - be that because of transfer dealings, tactics or whatever.

What is different now than when we were under Evans or Houllier??

I dont see much difference to be fair, Istanbul aside.

by **DonnieDarko** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:40 am

Actually, GYBS i would say you are hurting LFC more than anything because you are tolerating mediocrity to exist at LFC.

Rafa has NO excuses.

FACT is that no progress has been made under rafa. Our best season (both in terms of results and style of play) was his second year (that one time kewell was playing well) and ever since then weve gone backwards.

Yes, Man Unt and Chelsea have spend more money, but that does NOT explain losses to Boro and draws to Stoke and Wigan.

Couple that with some baffling decisions both in the transfer market and the team:

Selling Keane with absolutely no cover at Forward

Flogging off Riise, Finnan, and Warnock and replacing them with Degen and Dossena

Refusing to integrate youth players into the team

Trying to sell Xabi Alonso

And many, many more just boneheaded decisions

I say get shut in the summer, flash the money, and bring in a big name in the summer. Enough is enough

by **kazza** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:11 am

bigmick wrote:Ah Kazza, the balance We mustn't be predictable you're quite right fella.

Yes I lean on only one side of things but at least I am positive. Big difference! I wish I had posted what you were going to say before you did as I knew what was coming :laugh:

by **kazza** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:19 am

crazyhorse wrote:
kazza wrote:
bigmick wrote:Remember, some of us said it was absolutely fecking ridiculous long before he did it. Yes we got shouted down on occasions, but we knew it then and now everyone knows it. I don't support and back stupid, mind numbingly fecking daft actions by the manager. I support Liverpool Football Club not Rafa Benitez FC, and if he behaves like a chump he and you can hardly expect people like me to agree with him.

When you have a negative outlook about a certain subject surely you will be right about half of the time (law of averages and all). Do you keep reminding us of when you were wrong with the same vigor? If I want to read the "negative" side of the argument, your posts are the ones to read. Trouble is I know what your outlook is before I even read the post which is making you pridictable, something a clever fellow such as yourself should never be. Don't lose the balance Mick.

Mick is one of the most balanced posters on here.. he could not be more objective!!

My two penny worth - we are not really any further on than we were when Rafa came..

We can beat any team on the planet on our day, but am not good enough to sustain it over a season - be that because of transfer dealings, tactics or whatever.

What is different now than when we were under Evans or Houllier??

I dont see much difference to be fair, Istanbul aside.

You clearly have not been reading his posts for a while. Objective we have not seen for a while. On the statement that we are no better off

We are the the most feared team in Europe and no team would want to play us in Europe including Manure. That could not have been said with Evans and Houllier.

by **bigmick** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:31 am

"Positive" is an overused word on here I think. Positive as in you look on the bright side, as opposed to fearing the worst I suppose. Positive presumeably means that you think if Rafa stays we have a good chance of winning the Premiership over the next couple of seasons? That's fair enough, I've got no beef with that.

Positive also probably means that in your judgement, Rafa has done just about as good a job as he could have done under difficult circumstances? I've no problem with you thinking that either. You also probably think that it would be a step backwards to get rid of Rafa, as whoever we got in to replace him wouldn't be able to do as good a job? How am I doing?

All of which is good, and you are 100% entitled to your opinion. Equally, surely, I'm entitled to disagree aren't I? Least I think I am anyway.

As for the "positive" side of things, I think if we changed the manager for somebody better, we'd have an even bigger chance of winning the Premiership than we will under Rafa. Not that negative really when you think about it. Contrary to popular belief, most of the people who are "negative" are that way because they want Liverpool to do better, to win more. No doubt those who are "positive" want the same thing. We simply disagree with how we can best go about it.

The really good part about the whole thing though, is that it matters not even 1 millionth of 1 per cent what any of us think. It matters not a jot who will be proven right or wrong in the end, it matters not if I'm clueless, you're a bluffer or S@int is an expert. Nobody listens to our opinions. we are existing in a cyber black hole here, and the only thing all of us have in common is that we want Liverpool to win.

Now, you're positive? Therefore, if we don't win the Champions League this season, you will think three years without a trophy is reasonable. I'm negative, and I think we can achieve much more than that. My ambition for the team is much bigger than that. I'm the guy who has said for the last two seasons, that the team is/was good enough to challenge for the title. I said we would challenge for it this season too. I think we can do much better, but I'm negative.

All it boils down to at the end of the day, is some people believe in the manager, and some people don't. If you do, you will find a way to twist the facts on money spent to show that we haven't spent as much as the Mancs or Chelsea. Equally, if you don't believe in him you'll find a way to show that we have.

It's not who's a better fan, who's got more faith, who's more "positive" or any of that stuff. It's just that some people belive in the manager and some people don't. Simple as that really, and no need for everyone to fall out about it.

by **kazza** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:32 am

bigmick wrote:"Positive" is an overused word on here I think. Positive as in you look on the bright side, as opposed to fearing the worst I suppose. Positive presumeably means that you think if Rafa stays we have a good chance of winning the Premiership over the next couple of seasons? That's fair enough, I've got no beef with that.

Positive also probably means that in your judgement, Rafa has done just about as good a job as he could have done under difficult circumstances? I've no problem with you thinking that either. You also probably think that it would be a step backwards to get rid of Rafa, as whoever we got in to replace him wouldn't be able to do as good a job? How am I doing?

All of which is good, and you are 100% entitled to your opinion. Equally, surely, I'm entitled to disagree aren't I? Least I think I am anyway.

As for the "positive" side of things, I think if we changed the manager for somebody better, we'd have an even bigger chance of winning the Premiership than we will under Rafa. Not that negative really when you think about it. Contrary to popular belief, most of the people who are "negative" are that way because they want Liverpool to do better, to win more. No doubt those who are "positive" want the same thing. We simply disagree with how we can best go about it.

The really good part about the whole thing though, is that it matters not even 1 millionth of 1 per cent what any of us think. It matters not a jot who will be proven right or wrong in the end, it matters not if I'm clueless, you're a bluffer or S@int is an expert. Nobody listens to our opinions. we are existing in a cyber black hole here, and the only thing all of us have in common is that we want Liverpool to win.

Now, you're positive? Therefore, if we don't win the Champions League this season, you will think three years without a trophy is reasonable. I'm negative, and I think we can achieve much more than that. My ambition for the team is much bigger than that. I'm the guy who has said for the last two seasons, that the team is/was good enough to challenge for the title. I said we would challenge for it this season too. I think we can do much better, but I'm negative.

All it boils down to at the end of the day, is some people believe in the manager, and some people don't. If you do, you will find a way to twist the facts on money spent to show that we haven't spent as much as the Mancs or Chelsea. Equally, if you don't believe in him you'll find a way to show that we have.

It's not who's a better fan, who's got more faith, who's more "positive" or any of that stuff. It's just that some people belive in the manager and some people don't. Simple as that really, and no need for everyone to fall out about it.

You are right. It is about some believe in the manager and some don't. No worries there. You are also correct that everyone can believe what they want and are entitled to their own opinion. You are correct yet again when you say it is not about who is the better fan, because at the end of the day it does not really matter. My issue when I say negative is the constant berating of the manager and some players. We know how you feel (we knew a couple of years ago) because you keep going on about it. Over and over and over, it never ends. That to me is negative and does not help matters. If I am going to be one sided, I would rather it was optimism rather than doom and gloom.

The thing is what are you trying to achieve? It is either trying to change peoples opinion and start a revolution (Bigmickalution

) at the grass roots or it is to say "I told you so, I am so clever and to think you all attacked me for my wisdom).

by **Sabre** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:49 am

All it boils down to at the end of the day, is some people believe in the manager, and some people don't.If you do, you will find a way to twist the facts on money spent to show that we haven't spent as much as the Mancs or Chelsea. Equally, if you don't believe in him you'll find a way to show that we have.

It's not who's a better fan, who's got more faith, who's more "positive" or any of that stuff. It's just that some people belive in the manager and some people don't. Simple as that really, and no need for everyone to fall out about it.

This is the problem with this forum these days.

Yesteryear I was told that I only discussed about Alonso. Alonso was attacked as a player, I defended him because I thought it was the right thing to do. In the process, no matter if we agreed or disagreed, we talked about partnerships, about player's quality, and you could save some footie discussion out of it.

This year the other day I posted a photo of an Alonso effort there in Mdrid, it got an appreciation of Dawson, and other than that, that thread was sleeping for 2 months. For me that's newkit problem number one, a thread should be more active to give praise than to give stick, but it's just the opposite.

Now, about problem number two. The problem with the Rafa discussion is precisely what I've highlighted of your text. People have an opinion, and they're entitled to. You make a poll and you see there are different levels of trust. Instead of acknowledging that for most people Rafa has mistakes and achievements, no, we insist on his mistakes.

I don't know what's the point of keep discussing about it every day, convince people? You won't. No matter how good is your prose 5 positive results in football will convince hundreds, and 5 negative results will convince hundreds to the anti side. It's not what we discuss here what changes the mind of the people. It's the results.

And you reach a point in which you give up. You don't give up because you don't know how to discuss any more, you give up bored. Which is different.

At least when the discussion was about defending Alonso in the process we discussed some football, his passing, how he works with Gerrard, how the oppo knew him. THis discussion about Rafa is about set of numbers, focusing on negatives, ignoring and minimising positives, and at least for me, it's boring as fúck.

And that leads me to Barry's thread. I'm that bored that I'll say, you're right. We're shít. My local neighbourhood women team is better managed. You win.

:sleep

by **bigmick** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:42 am

bigmick wrote:"Positive" is an overused word on here I think. Positive as in you look on the bright side, as opposed to fearing the worst I suppose. Positive presumeably means that you think if Rafa stays we have a good chance of winning the Premiership over the next couple of seasons? That's fair enough, I've got no beef with that.

Positive also probably means that in your judgement, Rafa has done just about as good a job as he could have done under difficult circumstances? I've no problem with you thinking that either. You also probably think that it would be a step backwards to get rid of Rafa, as whoever we got in to replace him wouldn't be able to do as good a job? How am I doing?

All of which is good, and you are 100% entitled to your opinion. Equally, surely, I'm entitled to disagree aren't I? Least I think I am anyway.

As for the "positive" side of things, I think if we changed the manager for somebody better, we'd have an even bigger chance of winning the Premiership than we will under Rafa. Not that negative really when you think about it. Contrary to popular belief, most of the people who are "negative" are that way because they want Liverpool to do better, to win more. No doubt those who are "positive" want the same thing. We simply disagree with how we can best go about it.

The really good part about the whole thing though, is that it matters not even 1 millionth of 1 per cent what any of us think. It matters not a jot who will be proven right or wrong in the end, it matters not if I'm clueless, you're a bluffer or S@int is an expert. Nobody listens to our opinions. we are existing in a cyber black hole here, and the only thing all of us have in common is that we want Liverpool to win.

Now, you're positive? Therefore, if we don't win the Champions League this season, you will think three years without a trophy is reasonable. I'm negative, and I think we can achieve much more than that. My ambition for the team is much bigger than that. I'm the guy who has said for the last two seasons, that the team is/was good enough to challenge for the title. I said we would challenge for it this season too. I think we can do much better, but I'm negative.

All it boils down to at the end of the day, is some people believe in the manager, and some people don't. If you do, you will find a way to twist the facts on money spent to show that we haven't spent as much as the Mancs or Chelsea. Equally, if you don't believe in him you'll find a way to show that we have.

It's not who's a better fan, who's got more faith, who's more "positive" or any of that stuff. It's just that some people belive in the manager and some people don't. Simple as that really, and no need for everyone to fall out about it.

I'm at a loss really. I can't post any more conciliatory than this. I'm accepting 100% that some people believe in the manager. I'm also saying that whatever any of us think it doesn't make any difference anyway.

I get "comment" which I'm not sure what to make of really, and Sabre's outburst. Read my post again, is it really inflammatory? I've just re-read it, including the highlighted bits and I can't see anything in it whatsoever which would wind anybody up.

I'll have to stop trying to be nice. The last time I offered an olive branch out on here it didn't really work out (although no bother on that score from me, far from it in fact) and now this.

If you post about football, you get muppets moaning that you post too long. It's all too technical, too analytical. If you post about the manager, even in threads which other people have started asking questions about the manager, like this one for instance, it's too boring.

Get this. Very often, the people who accuse you of going on about the manager, are the very same people who start the threads

. They start a thread called "our progression under Rafa" then when you comment in it, you are too negative or too boring.Then if you decide to start a thread about another manager, in a completely different section of the boards to Liverpool discussion, people don't like that either.

Anyway, it's all by the by. As I said in my last post, it basically comes down to whether or not you believe in the manager. Many do, as they are totally entitled to, and some don't. Simple as that.

If we want to talk about football, lets talk about football. It's all good.

by **Sabre** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:01 am

Was my opinion inflammatory? was it an outburst? I was calm. Just saying things like it is. Boring. If you want to know the real reason of why people do stop posting here it's they're probably bored to dead. There's nothing inflammatory in that, just telling things as I see them, instead of being nice.

I forgot to add that I'm probably as "guilty" of this boredness as you are, that is, not pointing out guilty people here. I've taken part of this boring discussions for too much. If you got my message as an "you are the only guilty guy", then that wasn't my point.

And FFS, yes, by all means, let's talk footie.

by **kazza** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:36 pm

bigmick wrote:I get "comment" which I'm not sure what to make of really,

Sorry about the "comment", I had to go to the gym and I did not want to lose my spot in the (apparent) queue

by **Sir Roger** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:00 pm

Sabre wrote:Was my opinion inflammatory? was it an outburst? I was calm. Just saying things like it is. Boring. If you want to know the real reason of why people do stop posting here it's they're probably bored to dead. There's nothing inflammatory in that, just telling things as I see them, instead of being nice.

I forgot to add that I'm probably as "guilty" of this boredness as you are, that is, not pointing out guilty people here. I've taken part of this boring discussions for too much. If you got my message as an "you are the only guilty guy", then that wasn't my point.

And FFS, yes, by all means, let's talk footie.

I dont think talking about our manager is boring at all
The football since christmas has for the most part been boring
But the manager has been very interesting indeed
Mostly for the wrong reasons
As long as people defend Rafa for what they see as positives others will see the negatives and comment on them
Long may that last

by **kazza** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:50 am

Progress under Raffa?

How about top rated team in Europe!

by **lakes10** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:08 am

kazza wrote:Progress under Raffa?

How about top rated team in Europe!

He done that in his first year here, what has he done since then.

last night changes nothing for me, nor a win at the weekend.

Rafa needs to show me that we can win the prem, by this he needs to beat small teams well, something he has never been able to do.

I think he summed it up for me a few weeks ago when he said something like "its unfair that teams come here and just sit back and take the draw"

Well Man U and other teams have found a way to breake this new way of playing down, if we had beat all the small teams this year we would have won the prem a few weeks ago.

by **kazza** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:18 am

lakes10 wrote:
kazza wrote:Progress under Raffa?

How about top rated team in Europe!

He done that in his first year here, what has he done since then.

last night changes nothing for me, nor a win at the weekend.

Rafa needs to show me that we can win the prem, by this he needs to beat small teams well, something he has never been able to do.

I think he summed it up for me a few weeks ago when he said something like "its unfair that teams come here and just sit back and take the draw"

Well Man U and other teams have found a way to breake this new way of playing down, if we had beat all the small teams this year we would have won the prem a few weeks ago.

In Tevez, Rooney, Berbatov and Ronaldo (at least 150 million) they cost more than our whole squad. Maybe that is how Utd figured out how to break those teams down (with a 1-0 scoreline mind you).

Question was have we progressed under Raffa? Answer is clearly we are better than we were under Houllier and how Utd deal with weaker teams has nothing to do with the question.

by **lakes10** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:27 am

kazza wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
kazza wrote:Progress under Raffa?

How about top rated team in Europe!

He done that in his first year here, what has he done since then.

last night changes nothing for me, nor a win at the weekend.

Rafa needs to show me that we can win the prem, by this he needs to beat small teams well, something he has never been able to do.

I think he summed it up for me a few weeks ago when he said something like "its unfair that teams come here and just sit back and take the draw"

Well Man U and other teams have found a way to breake this new way of playing down, if we had beat all the small teams this year we would have won the prem a few weeks ago.

In Tevez, Rooney, Berbatov and Ronaldo (at least 150 million) they cost more than our whole squad. Maybe that is how Utd figured out how to break those teams down (with a 1-0 scoreline mind you).

Question was have we progressed under Raffa? Answer is clearly we are better than we were under Houllier and how Utd deal with weaker teams has nothing to do with the question.

Sorry the money thing dont wash with me, Rafa has had money to spend on players and he has taken lots of players to our club.
he could have saved a lot of money on some of the :censored:

he has spent it on and got better players, he has also sold Good player and replaced them with :censored:

.

I still feel that last year we had the best team in 7 years at our club, if it had not been for silly mistakes by our manger with silly sub like taking SG when we was 1-0 up with 30 mins left and we end up 1-1 we could have won the prem.

just look at the amout of players Rafa has taken to our club.

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