Liverpool FC Forum

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:10 am

how many more times do we need an overhaul? just let rafa stay and do his thing. he will come good. he just needs to have the players to suit his system. at least he doesnt keep telling the media how we ''turned the corner''.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:01 am

Oldredeyes wrote

I think the general opinion is very much as you put it in your post Leon. The reason you didn't get the initial response is because most of us are simply exhausted talking about the failings of GH - and we now seek action by what has become a very unstable Board of Directors.
GH felt he was coming to Anfield in the same way that the great Shanks came - he thought the fans would warm to him in the same way, and for a while they did warm to him (but never with the strength of feeling shown to Bill Shankly).
I was a kid on the KOP when Shanks made his first bow at Anfield and from the start we knew we had a man worthy of our attention, affection and loyalty.
He was an honest man!
Bill gave us no false promises or excuses just bloody good management and an unbelievable talent for getting the best out of ordinary players and stars alike.
Any dreams that GH had of emulating the great man have long since gone and GH is left with broken dreams, a broken team and a million broken hearted supporters around the world.
I liked GH as a man when he arrived but he has gone as far as he can go with Liverpool and I hope he resigns quickly and takes on a more appropriate job elsewhere.
And make no mistake, the man who follows GH will have a big job to do. He will need to be ruthless with staff and players and he will need to send a loud warning out to other premiership clubs that we are on our way back. He will need to regain the respect, pride and ambition that we have lost in recent years.
A tall order? Not really,
A man from a Scottish mining village took on an even greater task in Liverpool during 1959 and turned our team into the best football outfit in the world.
It can - and will be done again- but not with GH.

Oldredeyes, if I remember corretly, was a poster that had some age >60, and his few posts in Newkit are worth reading everyone of them.

Neil recovered an old thread, and despite I think it's a bad thing to bump constantly threads, sometimes it's good to read what was said back then.

There we can see for instance Leon showing he too can reach the point of asking a new manager if he feels it's good for the club. And then there is the post of oldredeyes. And I've highlighted what he asked to the new manager.

The question is, did Rafa bring to the club what oldredeyes asked? have we progressed or not? IMHO, yes we have. And that's why, I think, people like Leonmc who're perfectly able to see what's wrong or right with the club agreed back that Houllier should go.

Only a few months ago when Rafa's future was at stake, some posters around here made comparisons of Rafa and Houllier to try to stablish a direct relationship between the demise of both managers. They talked about losing the plot and all that. I never saw that relationship, and I never saw the almost general consensus of Rafa needing to leave, but I think it's a good time to recover the discussion about Rafa.

Reading the locked thread's opinions, analysing where we're at the moment

a) Did Rafa bring what oldredeyes demanded?
b) Have we progressed or not? If we haven't, why?, if we have, how come some people claimed it would be a good idea to wait to offer Rafa a new contract until the end of season?

Discuss.

by **Effes** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:52 pm

MODS - Ive OK'd this with Bob first so would appreciate if it wasn't merged.

OK - there seems to be differing views about whether we have "progressed" under Rafa. So I just wanted to put some figures on the board for people to discuss and talk about differing "aspects" of progression.

I would appreciate if people discuss, then discuss without flame wars between "pro" and "anti" Rafas. Just look at the content of a post rather than any bias you think they have.

For me, you've got to start by looking at the league stats first and formost. Then look at Cup competitions - Signings/strength of squad - How the team plays - How you see the future.

So here is our league history:

Season Posn. Pts Pts behind winners/leaders
2008/9 2nd -- 7
2007/8 4th 76 11
2006/7 3rd 68 21
2005/6 3rd 82 9
2004/5 5th 58 37
Houllier -
2003/4 4th 60 30
2002/3 5th 64 19
2001/2 2nd 80 7
2000/1 3rd 60 11

Now - I posted this on another forum stating that there was no arguement that, when looking at the "points behind the leaders" under Rafa, we had fluctuated. But some stats blokes replied that I was talking nonsense, that the "9" in 2005/6 was an anomoly (one said he would sack one of his people in work if they'd said "fluctuate") - and when this "anomoly" is disregarded, it is clear that the "points behind the leaders" shows progression.
Im no stats analyst, so I will accept that argument.

PROGRESS.

Just a note - looking at the points total can paint a different picture - I guess another "anomoly" could be 2006/7, but a counter argument is that we got into the final of the Champs League that season.

Cup competitions

I really dont see the point in putting up the stats here. This isn't me trying to "steer" an argument in a particular direction.
We won the Champs League in rafa's first season. Won the FA Cup in his second. Got to the Champs League Final in his third. Got to the Champs League semis in his fourth. And now looking good in the last 16. If anyone wants to dispute this go ahead. I don't fancy your chances though

.

DEFENITE PROGRESS.

Signings/strength of squad

A lot of people have gripes with some players we have - Lucas, Babel, Dossena - but for each of these you have Reina, Mascherano, Alonso, Torres.
So negatives seem to be balanced by positives.

But then the Keane fiasco was a definite negative (Not saying Rafa's fault) - if it had come off we would have that other quality striker required.

Re. Money used by Rafa - Ive read (and seen figures) where the Net spend is £91M and £104M - so lets just agree it's about £98M over Rafa's reign - which equates to about £20M a season.

The stregth of squad is debateable - we've only got one quality striker, the full-back situation is a bit dire, and we have needed a right-sided player ever since Rafa joined.
However, in other areas the squad is healthy, goalkeeper, Centre backs, and Centre-Midfielders.
Again, negatives seem to be balanced by postives.

The team we had in Rafa's first season had Riise and Finnan as full backs, Hamman, Garcia, Morientes, Cisse, Alonso.(He sent Murphy packing).
I think our 1st eleven has improved, but Im not convinced when we're talking about the squad. So I'll say -

STAYED THE SAME.

How we play/perform

I think we have become a much harder team to beat since Rafa took over - the losses in each of his seasons read :-
14, 6, 10, 4, and so far 1.

We "morphed" last season into the 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard moving behind Torres, and it worked an absolute treat. The results definitley improved and our season finished on a high note.
The only doubt I have about this formation sometimes is that it's obvious where our threat comes from and thus teams can have a game plan to combat this. Wish we had a Plan B.
But overall, the new system works.

Draws - where do I start, we draw too many. It was a problem last season and it's reared its ugly head again. I think Rafa was hoping Dossena could provide an attcking element down the left, especially at home. Hasn't worked though, his crossing can be very much hit and miss.

Paradoxical seasons - we win a cup or get into a final = dont do great in the league. I just wish one didn't have to give in order for another to profit. Is the strength and depth of our squad the reason for this?

Overall though I'd say we've PROGRESSED.

How you see the future

This is a hard one.
I cant say I'd be too surprised to see another "anomoly" next season, too many draws maybe, poorer results against the top 4, additions to the squad which make no real difference??

Rafa has frustrated me at times, but I do wonder whether Ive been too harsh. Man U bearing down on No. 18 has made me panic, and I think made us all panic.
I think maybe Ive set the bar too high - here's a table showing new champions, and where they finished the previous season: (remember last season we were 3rd and 11 points off the top)

Winners Pts Previous position Previous Pts Pts behind winners

Man U (06/07) 89 2nd 83 8
Chelsea (04/05) 91 2nd 79 11
Arsenal (03/04) 90 2nd 78 5
Man U (02/03) 83 3rd 77 10
Arsenal (01/02) 87 2nd 70 10
Man U (98/99) 79 2nd 77 1
Arsenal (97/98) 78 3rd 68 7
Man U (95/96) 82 2nd 88 1
Blackburn (94/95) 89 2nd 84 8
Man U (92/93) 84 2nd 78 8
Leeds U (91/92) 82 4th 64 19

Looking at the table, I guess you can say that to EXPECT us to win the league was asking too much.
So I guess, the future should see Rafa try and take us a further step.

Looking at the very long drivel Ive posted, my conclusion is YES we have progressed under Rafa. And I must admit - whoever thinks we haven't will have a tough time convincing me.
My biggest doubt is whether we can turn a few of those draws into wins (which would see us seriously challenge).
I guess a lot of people may agree we have progressed, BUT they think Rafa is incapable of taking us further. It's a very valid point - but I guess a question to that is -
what do you base your reasoning on?

(Apologies for the length of this post)

by **Dundalk** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:03 pm

Brilliant post Effes mate, your turning into the new Owzat - he wont be happy

Its interesting looking at it an its show that overall we have shown progress, i know rafa has bought some bad players (name me a manager who hasnt) but he also bought some kwality in his time.

I remember the year we won the UEFA Cup under Houllier we beat Barca in the semis. The first leg was in the Nou Camp and we got a 0-0 draw but i remember we didnt get out of our half for the full 90 mins! We are not like that now no matter what anyone tells you

(This topic should really be merged at this stage, it has already run its course

)

by **GYBS** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:05 pm

With the points behind the leader mate i reckon we can narrow it down to one thing - the CL - 05/06 we got knocked out in feb so could spend the rest of the season playing most of our stroongest 11 in the league trying to get the best results . the next season we went all the way to the final so a lot of times when it came to league games before cl we played weakened (back ups)teams and didnt get the best results same again last season where we got to the semis but our back ups where a bit more stronger this time .I maybe totally wrong but it seems that way to me .

Progress -

Europe - well the facts our there and its obvious to see since Rafa arrived we have becoming prob one of the best in europe .

Prem- we have progressed in my eyes - maybe not enough but as you state we are now harder to beat and dont loose many games . the next step for me is to turn those draw into wins . get someone with a bit more creativity to help unlock defences that park buses.

Squad- well will have definatly progressed in terms of strength of starting 11 and imo back ups .

In summary in my humble opinion i think we have progressed while rafa has been here - yes it doesnt seem to be enough at the moment for us to win the league but we are there or there abouts at the moment and given a few more quality signings and a bit of time i think rafa will win the league for us .

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:45 pm

The problem with progressing is that if the others in front of you are progressing as well its pretty pointless
We need a winning mentality based on attacking football

First is first
Second is nowhere

by **heimdall** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:37 pm

Going by the points we have progressed but has Rafa taken us as far as he can, that is the question. An example for me is right midfield, as mentioned this has been a problem for along time but last transfer window rafa didn't even attempt to to sign a right midfield, I certainly can't recall someone being linked to us. We are better defensively but arguably a bit less creative than we used to me. We are certainly less creative than under Roy Evans but at that time we had a bad defense, it's hard to get the formula right I guess.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:50 pm

the CL - 05/06 we got knocked out in feb so could spend the rest of the season playing most of our stroongest 11 in the league trying to get the best results . the next season we went all the way to the final so a lot of times when it came to league games before cl we played weakened (back ups)teams

I find it strange if not quite bizzare that here you say we played weakened teams to defend our poor league form, yet in another thread Heimdall is pilloried for believing that Rafa might have rested Gerrard against Citeh. Strange!

by **Effes** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:55 pm

heimdall wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
heimdall wrote:Going by the points we have progressed but has Rafa taken us as far as he can, that is the question. An example for me is right midfield, as mentioned this has been a problem for along time but last transfer window rafa didn't even attempt to to sign a right midfield, I certainly can't recall someone being linked to us. We are better defensively but arguably a bit less creative than we used to me. We are certainly less creative than under Roy Evans but at that time we had a bad defense, it's hard to get the formula right I guess.

Why would he sign someone for rm?
Hes got benayoun, kuyt, babbel and... whats that little irish fellas name...?

Irish fella, we've had no Irish players in the team have we....

Well, Rafa tried Pennant and that hasn't worked.

I guess the question is, what kind of player is ideal for Kuyt's position? Rafa seems fairly happy with Kuyt- but I'd rather have someone with more pace and more ability to beat a man.

by **heimdall** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:01 pm

Effes wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
heimdall wrote:Going by the points we have progressed but has Rafa taken us as far as he can, that is the question. An example for me is right midfield, as mentioned this has been a problem for along time but last transfer window rafa didn't even attempt to to sign a right midfield, I certainly can't recall someone being linked to us. We are better defensively but arguably a bit less creative than we used to me. We are certainly less creative than under Roy Evans but at that time we had a bad defense, it's hard to get the formula right I guess.

Why would he sign someone for rm?
Hes got benayoun, kuyt, babbel and... whats that little irish fellas name...?

Irish fella, we've had no Irish players in the team have we....

Well, Rafa tried Pennant and that hasn't worked.

I guess the question is, what kind of player is ideal for Kuyt's position? Rafa seems fairly happy with Kuyt- but I'd rather have someone with more pace and more ability to beat a man.

Even though he's a complete pr1ck I'd love to have someone like Robben on the right midfield, that would be fecking awesome!

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:07 pm

Cracking opening post Effes, both fair and illuminating.

Some more stats looking at things from a slightly different angle. Breaking it up into home and away and comparing with the mancs.
04/05:
Home:
3. Man Utd 19 12 6 1 31-12 42p
4. Liverpool 19 12 4 3 31-15 40p
Away:
3. Man Utd 19 10 5 4 27-14 35p
10. Liverpool 19 5 3 11 21-26 18p

05/06:
Home:
2. Liverpool 19 15 3 1 32-8 48p
4. Man Utd 19 13 5 1 37-8 44p
Away:
1. Man Utd 19 12 3 4 35-26 39p
3. Liverpool 19 10 4 5 25-17 34p

06/07:
Home:
1. Man Utd 19 15 2 2 46-12 47p
2. Liverpool 19 14 4 1 39-7 46p
Away:
1.Man Utd 19 13 3 3 37-15 42p
5. Liverpool 19 6 4 9 18-20 22p

07/08:
Home:
1. Man Utd 19 17 1 1 47-7 52p
4. Liverpool 19 12 6 1 43-13 42p
Away:
3. Man Utd 19 10 5 4 33-15 35p
4. Liverpool 19 9 7 3 24-15 34p

08/09:
Home:
1. Man Utd 13 12 1 0 30-5 37p
3. Liverpool 13 7 6 0 20-8 27p* (18 points to fight for)
Away:
3. Liverpool 13 8 4 1 23-10 28p* (18 points to fight for)
4. Man Utd 13 7 4 2 16-6 25p

Home:
40p
48p
46p
42p
27p - maximum 45 points.

Away:
18p
34p
22p
34p
28p - max 46 points.

(Stats from TLW)

by **GYBS** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:14 pm

pi ss take on another area of the board then - ie general chat .

So from that saint it looks like last years away form really let us down badly

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:17 pm

GYBS wrote:pi ss take on another area of the board then - ie general chat .

So from that saint it looks like last years away form really let us down badly

Its ironic mate every alternate year we have p!ss poor away form, this year we have very good away form and our Home form goes to the dogs.

by **GYBS** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:19 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:pi ss take on another area of the board then - ie general chat .

So from that saint it looks like last years away form really let us down badly

Its ironic mate every alternate year we have p!ss poor away form, this year we have very good away form and our Home form goes to the dogs.

Very mate - ten points behind the mancs in regards to the home records doesnt look good and pretty much sums up the whole unable to break down teams that come to defend at anfield .

by **heimdall** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:20 pm

Sir Roger wrote:
GYBS wrote:pi ss take on another area of the board then - ie general chat .

So from that saint it looks like last years away form really let us down badly

Sorry GYBS
I didnt know you owned the forum

I will be ever so respectful from now on
Promise

You mind that you do.

So what is the deal with the fluctuating home and away form then?

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