Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:14 am

Good post Effes. My faith in Rafa has been shaken a fair bit this season, TBPH, in terms of how he has handled the squad. I think the shameless pursuit of Barry/soliciting bidders for Alonso this summer was very poor form, topped only by the debacle surrounding Robbie Keane's departure. Heap those incidents on top of the myriad murmurings about Rafa being a bit of a cold fish and not an arm around the shoulder type and you start to see a pattern (and, of course, there was the whole thing with Crouch last season...which I'm sure I downplayed at the time but which now looks like more of the same). So man-management's a concern.

Allied with that is the question about our revolving door. I haven't had a chance to post in the squad thread yet but my concern is that we seem to be treading water when it comes to assembling a squad strong enough to win the league. No question we've got the spine of the team sorted (provided he leaves Xabi be! :angry:

) but we're desperately thin on the ground in wide positions and in terms of back-up for Torres. What's more disturbing is just how many players we've shipped off as "not good enough" that I'd have back in a heartbeat right now, given that they're a dam.n sight better than what we currently have. I know time distorts memory and all that but, seriously, are Cisse, Baros, Bellamy etc. worse than Ngog? Anyway, the revolving door's my other big concern with Rafa.

With that said, we are in the thick of a title race for the first time in a long while and we have performed very, very well against our main rivals so far--both massive signs of improvement. It will be very interesting to see how we go now that the Champions League is back in the frame. I have a feeling that it will have a huge impact on the rest of our season: it will either galvanize us completely derail us. So, call me a coward but we're just arriving at the business end of things now and I'm not going to stick my neck out and say this or that has to happen for Rafa to stay or go at this stage. As ever, I'll wait and see how things pan out in the run in but with the understanding that, no matter how we end the season, the two big concerns I've outlined above won't necessarily just evaporate come May.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:28 am

GYBS wrote:I think the difference is the owners back then knew about the game and approached a football man as opposed to dumb and dumber approaching someone whose profile was high in the states due to the fact he lived there so he was always in the public eye . Klinnsman only managed germany for a couple of years and didnt really uproot any trees in the World Cup where they didnt even have to qualify . During the time he was German Manager he spent most of his time living in the states hence why he wa son the two muppets radar.

how many times do people need to bring this up before the reality of the matter sinks in, I will write it in capitals and in bold and hopefully you will then understand it.

KLINSMAN WAS APPROACHED IN A CONSULTANCY ROLE, NOT AS A MANAGER, THIS DECISION WAS MADE AFTER BENITEZ WAS APPROACHED BY THREE OTHER CLUBS. KLINSMAN WAS NEVER TOUTED AS A MANAGER, THE OWNERS HAVE NEVER SAID HE WAS APPROACHED AS A MANAGER

I hope that's a bit clearer now, i mean its only last week this was reiterated when SOS spoke to Gillet

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:40 am

The Liverpool way sabre,

I grew up in the city (walking distance from the ground), my first game shanks was still manager in 1973, then Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish.

The liverpool way was promotion from within, people who knew the club, people who loved the club (people who you could believe loved the club), people who got on with their job with the minimum of fuss, people who knew what it takes to win, people who could spot a talent and recruit that talent, a family club, fans who knew what winning meant rather than the modern day fan accepting 4th place as an a achievement, fans who would see two draws with stoke for what it was and make no excuses about it. People who never played things out in the papers (the first you knew about a signing was when he appeared at the club)(i know the media less back then but still....), a chairman in john smith and chief exec in peter robinson who were quality.

the liverpool way was everything working with the minimum of fuss, anyone who wanted to blow their own trumpet was out the door, the biggest thing was the club and no individual was allowed to destabilise that, we knew how to win and has the confidence to win, we had players who would run through brick walls for the club and for the fans, we has managers with a genuine love for the club.

i want the 70's and 80's back

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:53 am

I do think though Pee that we tend to look back on things with rose tinted spectacles, as opposed to looking at the current situation with them. This "he loves the club" stuff for me is irrelevent to be honest, and I wouldn't personally hold it against Rafa if he secretly had a hankering to manage real Madrid (which I honestly think he does) anymore than I would let his supposed "love" influence my decision over a new contract for him.

Ultimately, it's not about whether or not he loves the club, it's about success on the pitch. It really is a s simple as that for me. We haven't wona trophy for two seasons, and if we don't this season it'll be three. What's more we have a hugely unbalanced squad which needs major surgery and money spending on it, this after five years meticulous planning. His love for the club is lovely, but it's success a manager is judged on.

As for the trophies, I noted from a speech which S@int quoted that Rafa was saying we had won four trophies. If that is the case, he's been a bit Houllieresque in counting the Charity Shield and Super Cup in amongst our success. It won't be long before managers are counting pre season invitational round robins in Amsterdam as a trophy won. No, it's a harsh World but we enter four competitions each season. They rank in terms of importance 1-The Premiership, 2-The Champions League, 3-The FA Cup and 4-The Coca-Cola (or whoever else is sponsoring it) Cup.

I think we need to win one now and then. Whether or not the manager loves the club is all very well, but if he can't satisfy that condition then it's immaterial.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:03 am

100% agreed mick that it is not relevant if he loves the club or not, but it is trotted out on here reguarly. personally I don't think he does, he sees it as a job and nothing more.

as for looking back mick, sabre asked about the liverpool way from fans of different ages and in my opinion what I have written is my interpretation of the liverpool way, i have of course left out the waterfall of p!ss cascading down the back steps of the kop

in fact its ever since that waterfall has gone that we have gone downhill

Forget about SOS and RTK, join peewees campaign, BBTPW, BRING BACK THE P!SS WATERFALL

by **ste123lfc** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:28 am

Ahh, the good old :censored:

waterfall.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:52 am

whoever the next manager is, im hoping its Mourinho, he will have to try his very best to win it in his first or second season. enough of all this 5 year plans or whatever comparisons made to Fergie. why? because, i feel its starting to become a trend and managers are taking it for granted in an attempt to ask for more time. first it was GH who came up with this 5 year plan extravaganza. now it seems Rafa is following suit (if any yank in red font wants actual quotes please refer to Saint's post either in ''the squad'' thread). thats rubbish IMO. if say, GH were to take over Manure next season, would he be given a 5 year plan?

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:21 am

In all honesty I think it's fair to point out that we are an absolute country mile behind when Rafa took over, so it was fair enough to give him some time. The team which he was left behind may have moraculously won the European Cup, but it was made up of lots of poor players, with the odd good one sprinkled in. We had (before Rafa came) a poor goalkeeper, a decent defence, a reasonable to decent midfield and strikers who were not up to it.

The manager had to address that, and he did in all fairness to him. We now have a good goalkeeper, a decent defence, a reasonable to decent midfield and Torres plus some guys who aren't up to it up front.

The goalkeeper plus one striker has unquestionably improved, whilst I also think that both Masherano and Alonso are better players than Hamann (I know not everyone will agree but there you go).

So anyway, not trying to derail the thread or anything but there was a lot to do when the manager came, and because he's done some of it there's less to do now. As such, I don't think anyone should be expecting another five years to win or come very close to winning the title. To be perfectly honest, I don't actually think Rafa is expecting that either. He probably thinks that if we don't win it this year, we will in one of the next two.

by **Bam** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:34 am

Wow this Mourinho Bandwagon has really been set in motion around here, one fella calls it and many more coming running out of the woodwork wanting the "special one"

He is a great manager but for some unexplained reason I'm still holding on to that last glimer of hope that Rafa can get us to where we want to be. I dont know why that is, as I've been one of his hardest critics on here and the bloke certainly raises my Blood pressure.

Inspite of us "spunking" our lead earlier on in the season and therefore giving up all hope the man can get us challenging even when turning a gift horse down. I think we're obviously closer than we have ever been in at least the last ten years of trying, if he does come this close I'm anxious to see what lies just around the corner. To see if he can take us to the title next season or this, I think its absolutely silly and a waste of time to get shot of him now or even at the end of the season when he has possibly had his best season in a domestic campaign ever under his belt.

I know I will vent anger in the remaining months of the season and possibly next, and get a torrent abuse from the 'Pro-Rafa brigade' along the way. I expect that, and I suppose this post makes me kind of 'Pro' Rafa. I'm 'Pro' in the fact I dont think he should be given the boot now or in the summer. But very "anti" on some of his policies, but if eventually those policies (which I still do doubt) manage to secure us a Prem title. I'll hold my hands up to.

I doubt his methods, yet am anxious to see what lies just around the corner for his team (kind of a contradiction I know, but hard to explain) If he'd of been given the boot last summer I wouldnt of grumbled, like Effs my opinion fluctuates and I wasnt impressed with him last season in all honesty. But We've now got a sniff of glory and it shouldnt be unstabled IMO of sacking the manager talk right now, its a complete waste of time and effort to come this far and then just dismiss it all. Just because you disagree with the way he handled the Keane debacle, dont get me wrong it was tastless to say the least. Or his outbursts to the press about contracts and Fergie, those things wont sway my opinion too much like it has done for others, Its the results that matter.

BTB good opening post Effes

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:52 am

Bam wrote:Wow this Mourinho Bandwagon has really been set in motion around here, one fella calls it and many more coming running out of the woodwork wanting the "special one"

He is a great manager but for some unexplained reason I'm still holding on to that last glimer of hope that Rafa can get us to where we want to be. I dont know why that is, as I've been one of his hardest critics on here and the bloke certainly raises my Blood pressure.

Inspite of us "spunking" our lead earlier on in the season and therefore giving up all hope the man can get us challenging even when turning a gift horse down. I think we're obviously closer than we have ever been in at least the last ten years of trying, if he does come this close I'm anxious to see what lies just around the corner. To see if he can take us to the title next season or this, I think its absolutely silly and a waste of time to get shot of him now or even at the end of the season when he has possibly had his best season in a domestic campaign ever under his belt.

I know I will vent anger in the remaining months of the season and possibly next, and get a torrent abuse from the 'Pro-Rafa brigade' along the way. I expect that, and I suppose this post makes me kind of 'Pro' Rafa. I'm 'Pro' in the fact I dont think he should be given the boot now or in the summer. But very "anti" on some of his policies, but if eventually those policies (which I still do doubt) manage to secure us a Prem title. I'll hold my hands up to.

I doubt his methods, yet am anxious to see what lies just around the corner for his team (kind of a contradiction I know, but hard to explain) If he'd of been given the boot last summer I wouldnt of grumbled, like Effs my opinion fluctuates and I wasnt impressed with him last season in all honesty. But We've now got a sniff of glory and it shouldnt be unstabled IMO of sacking the manager talk right now, its a complete waste of time and effort to come this far and then just dismiss it all. Just because you disagree with the way he handled the Keane debacle, dont get me wrong it was tastless to say the least. Or his outbursts to the press about contracts and Fergie, those things wont sway my opinion too much like it has done for others, Its the results that matter.

BTB good opening post Effes

Good post that Bam and a really good stab at explaining how you feel. It's not easy I know, because I wrestled with the notion of the manager and how much I believed in him for a good eighteen months or so before I finally chucked the towel in.

Each person has their own levels of conviction which they must weigh up, and the waters are being muddied to the point of brown soup by our title challenge this season.

TBPH I don't think there's too much doubt that the manager will be given a new contract anyway, and I also don't think there's much doubt that during the course of his new stint he will do enough to keep the debate going. I kind of have the feeling that Rafa's time at Liverpool is now destined to be that way. The way he does the job and the way he conducts himself means there are always going to be people who love him and people who don't.

The split in opinion will ebb and flow, but there will pretty much always be a split there I think. That applies not just to this forum, not even to the fan base, but within the minds of all but the most rose tinted/doom and gloom of fans.

by **Owzat** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:06 am

Effes wrote:Here are the league positions in the years preceeding Bill's appointment, compared to 50 years later.

Division 2 Premier League

1954-55 11th 2004-05 5th
1955-56 3rd 2005-06 3rd
1956-57 3rd 2006-07 3rd
1957-58 4th 2007-08 4th

I dont need to point out how the last 3 seasons' placings mirror each other.
Liverpool were desparate to get back into the 1st Division, but you've got to admit, looking at past league finishes, they weren't that far
away were they? In those days the top 2 teams got promoted, so they only just missed out for 2 seasons.

Now I guess this is were an analogy gets a bit murky, other factors come into the equation.

Times have changed hugely since that era, no longer are teams likely to get promoted and win the league (not happened since the late 70s), sides haven't finished lower than third since the Premiership began and various other things simply don't happen any more because of the money involved in football and the elite league within the league.

Ask yourself why we haven't had a world war since 1939-1945. Is it because people are much nicer now and there are no Hitlers left or is it because the advancement in nuclear weapons means that the major powers keep each other in check for fear of the consequences? Basically warfare isn't what it was, so the days of tank, soldier, gun and airplane supremacy deciding a large scale war above the size of Iraq/Afghanistan etc has gone.

Comparisons with the distant past are pointless, that's why I mainly compare with Premiership history as that is more or less our new starting point. Much as we see relegation as unlikely now, it wasn't back when we were last relegated so how is there any room for comparison.........................?

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:16 am

In fairness Owz I don't think Effes is comparing. What he's doing is pointing out quite a strange coincidence in that as I read it, in the three years before Shankly arrived at anfield we finished in the same spot in our respective league as the last three years. I don't think he's actually saying there is a comparison, although no doubt he'll clear it up when he's around.

by **GYBS** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:29 am

Why does every single thread have to contain Maureen coming in during the summer and taking over and winning the title within two years ?!?! every thread - i know you started your own thread about it mick but its now infected the main boards - maureen is not our manager and it is pretty highly unlikely that he will be our manager in any near future yet he gets dragged up in every thread around . And max - rafa not once mentioned anything about 5 year plans etc etc and then mentioned something about fergie taking 7 odd years when he was asked .And what is wrong with managers asking for more time - maybe its about time managers got given a chance to let things flourish - let youngsters they bought come through and see if they can flourish - there is not many quick fixes in football these days and it does take time .

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:42 am

effes mentions maureen in the opening post and you mention him in the 4th post, yet you have a go at mick for him being mentioned

by **Bam** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:45 am

bigmick wrote:
Bam wrote:Wow this Mourinho Bandwagon has really been set in motion around here, one fella calls it and many more coming running out of the woodwork wanting the "special one"

He is a great manager but for some unexplained reason I'm still holding on to that last glimer of hope that Rafa can get us to where we want to be. I dont know why that is, as I've been one of his hardest critics on here and the bloke certainly raises my Blood pressure.

Inspite of us "spunking" our lead earlier on in the season and therefore giving up all hope the man can get us challenging even when turning a gift horse down. I think we're obviously closer than we have ever been in at least the last ten years of trying, if he does come this close I'm anxious to see what lies just around the corner. To see if he can take us to the title next season or this, I think its absolutely silly and a waste of time to get shot of him now or even at the end of the season when he has possibly had his best season in a domestic campaign ever under his belt.

I know I will vent anger in the remaining months of the season and possibly next, and get a torrent abuse from the 'Pro-Rafa brigade' along the way. I expect that, and I suppose this post makes me kind of 'Pro' Rafa. I'm 'Pro' in the fact I dont think he should be given the boot now or in the summer. But very "anti" on some of his policies, but if eventually those policies (which I still do doubt) manage to secure us a Prem title. I'll hold my hands up to.

I doubt his methods, yet am anxious to see what lies just around the corner for his team (kind of a contradiction I know, but hard to explain) If he'd of been given the boot last summer I wouldnt of grumbled, like Effs my opinion fluctuates and I wasnt impressed with him last season in all honesty. But We've now got a sniff of glory and it shouldnt be unstabled IMO of sacking the manager talk right now, its a complete waste of time and effort to come this far and then just dismiss it all. Just because you disagree with the way he handled the Keane debacle, dont get me wrong it was tastless to say the least. Or his outbursts to the press about contracts and Fergie, those things wont sway my opinion too much like it has done for others, Its the results that matter.

BTB good opening post Effes

Good post that Bam and a really good stab at explaining how you feel. It's not easy I know, because I wrestled with the notion of the manager and how much I believed in him for a good eighteen months or so before I finally chucked the towel in.

Each person has their own levels of conviction which they must weigh up, and the waters are being muddied to the point of brown soup by our title challenge this season.

TBPH I don't think there's too much doubt that the manager will be given a new contract anyway, and I also don't think there's much doubt that during the course of his new stint he will do enough to keep the debate going. I kind of have the feeling that Rafa's time at Liverpool is now destined to be that way. The way he does the job and the way he conducts himself means there are always going to be people who love him and people who don't.

The split in opinion will ebb and flow, but there will pretty much always be a split there I think. That applies not just to this forum, not even to the fan base, but within the minds of all but the most rose tinted/doom and gloom of fans.

In saying that Mick I'd only give him a two year contract, if nothing comes of it after that. Then he MUST go, seven years at a club like Liverpool without a title IMHO is long enough.

Thats we're I'll draw the line, my patience is running out, but this seasons title challenge has given me something to clutch at.

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