Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:59 am

metalhead wrote:
s@int wrote:
Maybe you have a better explanation for playing Crouch on the left wing as we lost our first game of last season?

This one

But we didnt lose our first game of last season

It was our first loss of the season

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:00 pm

Bam wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bam wrote:Torres last season being a prime example of this, Rafa rested the Spainard and said in an interview that the Birmingham defence would sit to deep. And that Torres wouldnt get the space so he opted for Voronin who would be better suited to play in between the lines.
That comment Rafa made was a very poor excuse, either he did try and other think things, or he styled just for the hell of it, or as the pro's Ro's would say rested him. But either way the comment was shoddy and ontop of other selection/substitutions/tactics/formations and rotations during the past three years it does make you wonder.

Torres last season is not the prime examle in that the example you have used is one game, it sounds like a headline on the back of a tabloid that bit to be fair.

I wonder of the explanation was shoddy or it was the truth, and simply a poor decision.

Well maybe it was a poor decision then because he overthought the use of playing Voronin instead of Torres. If what he said in the interview afterwards was true, then he simply overcomplicated the theory behind breaking Birmingham down.

Whats complicated to you may not be complicated to him.

For instane, I think I am right in saying your a plumber, well pipework in a house would be lke algebra to me, but simple for you.

Its all relative.

As I said - he got that wrong to a degree.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:01 pm

If the question is, 'why did Rafa pick that formation against Reading?' I think it wasn't the first time that Rafa has opted to play 3 strikers ahead of 3 midfielders on the road against spirited but limited opposition. I don't have the details to hand but I seem to recall we did it the season before at Wigan or Reading or Newcastle or some such. On the previous occasion it worked, IIRC. Obviously it didn't work at Reading and that means that that particular match must fall into the category of questionable selections/formations that Saint's highlighted in one of his earlier points, when outlining why he's had doubts about Rafa in the past (which is fair enough).

With all that said, I still can't understand how any of Rafa's decisions can be construed as him just trying to look clever. I think that suggestion does a disservice to the man.

by **metalhead** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:05 pm

s@int wrote:
metalhead wrote:
s@int wrote:
Maybe you have a better explanation for playing Crouch on the left wing as we lost our first game of last season?

This one

But we didnt lose our first game of last season

It was our first loss of the season

Err... pardon!!

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:06 pm

We had done it before, but with Kuyt or Kewell (who can both play wide) not Crouch. We had just won 4-0 playing 4-4-2, we won our next game 4-0 playing 4-4-2 and we had already beaten Reading 4-2 in the league cup playing 4-4-2. So again I ask why would ANY manager change to playing 4-3-3 with Crouch on the wing unless he had other motives apart from just winning the game?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:07 pm

Bam wrote:Funny really, you get picked up and critised for scrutinising Rafa's methods, yet when him and the team do sincerely deserve the credit they recieve the old word fickle gets banded about.

Yer Damned if you do ...

In certain peoples eyes you have to stick by your guns and be "consistent" with your arguements. So if your an "anti-R" and have critised Rafa heavily in the past, you have to stick by that and continue to critise him, just to be seen as "consistent".

Feck all this consistentcy c.rap, I call it how I see it. If that makes me "fickle" rather than "consistent" in even when I'm wrong, well call me Bamfickle.

Thats as the other thread - and I never said anyone in particular was fickle but that on the whole football fans by their nature are fickle.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:08 pm

s@int wrote:We had done it before, but with Kuyt or Kewell (who can both play wide) not Crouch. We had just won 4-0 playing 4-4-2, we won our next game 4-0 playing 4-4-2 and we had already beaten Reading 4-2 in the league cup playing 4-4-2. So again I ask why would ANY manager change to playing 4-3-3 with Crouch on the wing unless he had other motives apart from just winning the game?

To look clever ?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:08 pm

s@int wrote:
Maybe you have a better explanation for playing Crouch on the left wing as we lost our first game of last season?

This one

Crouch wwas played on the left of a three up front, not on the left wing.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:10 pm

Bad Bob wrote:With all that said, I still can't understand how any of Rafa's decisions can be construed as him just trying to look clever. I think that suggestion does a disservice to the man.

Nah, the disservice is only to the one who writes that.

A clever guy doesn't need to prove he's clever not is obsessed with intelligence.

I don't have problems to find concerns and comment them, that's what we come here for. I would like though a better balance in finding concerns and commenting praises.

For instance Riera made a couple of heavy mistakes in the last game, both in second half, and both identical, and both led to Chelsea chances. I could pick those mistakes, and go on about them while ignoring everything Riera did well. But it wouldn't be balanced. When we win, it's easier to ignore the bad aspects, when we lose it's easier to focus on negatives, haven't you noticed that Kuyt these days is hardly insulted? 1 month ago you heard every type of comment in match threads.

Sometimes, an isolated mistake of Rafa is taken, and out of it it's said as a general rule.

He gets one day a sub wrong, and is said that he gets wrong the subs often. That's not true, IMHO.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:10 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:We had done it before, but with Kuyt or Kewell (who can both play wide) not Crouch. We had just won 4-0 playing 4-4-2, we won our next game 4-0 playing 4-4-2 and we had already beaten Reading 4-2 in the league cup playing 4-4-2. So again I ask why would ANY manager change to playing 4-3-3 with Crouch on the wing unless he had other motives apart from just winning the game?

To look clever ?

Glad you agree

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:11 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Maybe you have a better explanation for playing Crouch on the left wing as we lost our first game of last season?

This one

Crouch wwas played on the left of a three up front, not on the left wing.

You know as well as me that he spent most of the game on the wing

by **Bam** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:12 pm

For instane, I think I am right in saying your a plumber, well pipework in a house would be lke algebra to me, but simple for you.

Yes your right about me being a Plumber, are you stalking me ?

Fair enough he may of got it wrong, but sometimes I think as a manager it is highly likely for you to indulge in all of your graphs, stats and all kinds of data instead of taking a step back and looking at it in a less analitcal way, and just going with the form the player is in.

Surely if Rafa had to rotate our team all around last season after four or five games, believing in the 'Delayed-Gazelle' theory why hasnt he done it this time around. It looks to me as though he's gone with the more arthordox approach in management, rather than his 'modern day technique' and dare I say its played its part in where we are in the league at the moment.

For Leon

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:15 pm

s@int wrote:We had done it before, but with Kuyt or Kewell (who can both play wide) not Crouch. We had just won 4-0 playing 4-4-2, we won our next game 4-0 playing 4-4-2 and we had already beaten Reading 4-2 in the league cup playing 4-4-2. So again I ask why would ANY manager change to playing 4-3-3 with Crouch on the wing unless he had other motives apart from just winning the game?

I guess it's a matter of faith, then, mate. I don't understand why he picked that team and that formation (although I wouldn't go so far as to say that Crouch was shuffled out to the wing...left of Torres, yes, but not on the wing) but there's lots of things I don't understand about Rafa's tactics, even when they work!

What I do feel, deep in my gut, is that the man is meticulous, obsessed with details and devoted to the success of Liverpool Football Club. As such, I have faith in his commitment to the club's success and, thus, I would never consider a tactical error to be more than that--an error. I can completely accept that Rafa makes mistakes when it comes to tactics, team selection, man management etc. That's 100% certain. But, the very idea that he would do something that hinders the team just to look clever rings completely false to me.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:21 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:We had done it before, but with Kuyt or Kewell (who can both play wide) not Crouch. We had just won 4-0 playing 4-4-2, we won our next game 4-0 playing 4-4-2 and we had already beaten Reading 4-2 in the league cup playing 4-4-2. So again I ask why would ANY manager change to playing 4-3-3 with Crouch on the wing unless he had other motives apart from just winning the game?

I guess it's a matter of faith, then, mate. I don't understand why he picked that team and that formation (although I wouldn't go so far as to say that Crouch was shuffled out to the wing...left of Torres, yes, but not on the wing) but there's lots of things I don't understand about Rafa's tactics, even when they work! What I do feel, deep in my gut, is that the man is meticulous, obsessed with details and devoted to the success of Liverpool Football Club. As such, I have faith in his commitment to the club's success and, thus, I would never consider a tactical error to be more than that--an error. I can completely accept that Rafa makes mistakes when it comes to tactics, team selection, man management etc. That's 100% certain. But, the very idea that he would do something that hinders the team just to look clever rings completely false to me.

If I troubled to look mate , I can find YOUR post were YOU question why Crouch was played on the left wing.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:23 pm

Bam wrote:
For instane, I think I am right in saying your a plumber, well pipework in a house would be lke algebra to me, but simple for you.

Yes your right about me being a Plumber, are you stalking me ?

Fair enough he may of got it wrong, but sometimes I think as a manager it is highly likely for you to indulge in all of your graphs, stats and all kinds of data instead of taking a step back and looking at it in a less analitcal way, and just going with the form the player is in.

Surely if Rafa had to rotate our team all around last season after four or five games, believing in the 'Delayed-Gazelle' theory why hasnt he done it this time around. It looks to me as though he's gone with the more arthordox approach in management, rather than his 'modern day technique' and dare I say its played its part in where we are in the league at the moment.

As a maanger, I know only too well how easy it is to do exactly that, and management tools should always be indicators and not decision makers, however the notion that as a man (not manager, simply thinking about the humble guy he is) he let his ego get in the way of his job and pick a team to prove he is clever is laughable.

Surely to prove you are clever as a manager then you would influence performance and get the right result ?

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