Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:58 pm

IMHO, one of the factors that is a clear sign of a improved squad from 2005, is that, back then, we needed more badly our key players.

I remember regular members saying for instance that without Gerrard, we would have been 7th or 8th.

IMHO, one of the best news this season is how the squad has answered when one of our key players is not available.

We have responded well when Torres, Mascherano and Gerrard have been unavailable and that's great news. Because a tittle winning squad can't be too depending on a specific player, they have to be able to win without him too. And we have passed that test incredibly well.

The key players these days are Reina, Mascherano, Torres, Gerrard... but it's great news that the not key players have stepped on when one of the key players haven't been available. One day it will be Keane, one day it will be Kuyt, another day it will be Alonso, but it's very important that the squad is responding well when our world class players are not there.

This is something we didn't use to have in 2005. Alonso was key back then, Gerrard was key back then, and when they weren't available we wouldn't look like winning.

The reasons of it? IMHO a stronger squad. Others might think that playing a consistent side gives confidence to the rest of the squad and it would be fair enough.

But what do you think? is our squad stronger now than in 2005? Or is it this lack of dependancy one of the good things of a settled team?

by **metalhead** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:20 pm

We do have some depth in the squad, I think Rafa had improved the squad immensely by getting excellent backup players that could fill in temporarily. As a squad, we are good.

Basically I agree with your post sabre

by **johnymarcu** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:14 am

Liverpool is a big team, and this kind of things happens to big teams

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:04 am

We had a better defence back in 2005, a much worse goalkeeper a very similar midfield and a much worse forward line.

To say we couldn't manage without our best players back then but can now, is a little bit misleading. We played Juventus away without Gerrard , and actually had a BETTER record when Gerrard didn't play than when he did . (Thats not to say he wasn't missed!)We beat Chelsea without Alonso. Deportivo we beat without Gerrard or Alonso. We played most of the season without Cisse and Kewell, something we eventually had to get used to.

The squad depth,and the forwards of todays team are certainly a huge improvement on what we had back then, (you would expect some improvement from £100million+ worth of talent)but to say we couldn't manage without key players is wrong, because we did!

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:57 am

good starting thread. this season the players have looked alot more focus. as if their on some mission where retrogate is no option. the squad is alot more better then in 2005 as the players we have now have played internationally or at least the highest level in europe.

by **club_Levis** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:31 am

I dont think thats very correct Sabre because things might have cancelled themselves out coz when we played and won without our key players in Torres and Stevie, the opposition also missed their key players. ( Ronaldo in case of Man u and Drogba, Ballack, Essien and Cole in case of Chelsea).

by **Owzat** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:55 am

club_Levis wrote:I dont think thats very correct Sabre because things might have cancelled themselves out coz when we played and won without our key players in Torres and Stevie, the opposition also missed their key players. ( Ronaldo in case of Man u and Drogba, Ballack, Essien and Cole in case of Chelsea).

Very good point.

As I said before the man utd game, it may have been better that Torres (in particular) didn't play, because the mancs had in the past easily identified and negated our key player(s) They stifled our game and picked up the pieces, without their negative tactics we won the game. Chelsea was somewhat different, I think we won that through a lack of cutting edge from a team that showed so much cutting edge this season. So you could say missing Joe Cole and Drogba in particular may have not helped them when they faced a determined and resilient Liverpool.

I'd say we are just that word, more resilient than last season. Doing what the mancs have done best for years and they get credit while we're called lucky - winning a game they maybe didn't fully deserve to, but finding a goal from somewhere or turning a game on its head. I think we will need to find more goals, if we remain over-dependant on Torres or the scrappy wins and the come-from-behind wins, then we may struggle to last the distance.

The mancs use their resilience to win through in games they struggle in, not for the whole 38 games. We've won only once by more than one goal in the league, can we expect to keep that up without more contributions? Last season we relied heavily on goals from Gerrard and Torres, this season Kuyt has chipped in his share, but only SO FAR. Will he keep it up? Possibly not. We shelled out £20m on Keane who has yet to score in the league, he needs to start scoring soon or stop starting. One of the key factors for me last season was a lack of goals from midfield, Gerrard apart of course.

While I don't expect 10 a season from all of the midfielders, more do need to chip in with 4-5 goals. It would give us more threat from more areas of the field, instead of Alonso trying to chip the keeper at any slight hint of the keeper being off his line, perhaps he could be like Lampard or Gerrard and come in late and strike more goals from the edge of the box. Mascherano could too, maybe not so much against the better sides, but when we have majority of possession and are trying to break the opposition down. When the defence is sitting deep, there is no point trying to squeeze pinpoint passes through the defence, if the midfielders have decent shots from inside of 30 yards then it can draw the defenders out. Potshots can take deflections and lead to corners or goals, attempting to thread the ball through a tight packed defence often just gives the ball to the defence and we need to defend or win the ball back.

It is all about goals, how best to get them and not be too reliant on one or two key players who the opposition can easily identify just the same as we can. Even our defenders don't chip in enough goals, only really Hyypia and Agger have any kind of scoring record from our defenders. We need supply and crosses from the midfield, goals add an extra dimension to their game and the team overall. If key players are marked then it can be up to the likes of Pennant, Mascherano, Alonso, Riera, Kuyt (when out wide) to use any space and get shots in.

But at the moment we're not scoring freely enough, we are winning games we would have drawn last season, or lost seasons previously, but how many times can we rely on scrappy and narrow wins? The other very important point is that narrow and scrappy wins mean we have to play at full throttle for 90 mins, you can relax a bit more when the game isn't tight and that may tell on the players longterm in terms of physical and mental fatigue

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:34 pm

club_Levis wrote:I dont think thats very correct Sabre because things might have cancelled themselves out coz when we played and won without our key players in Torres and Stevie, the opposition also missed their key players. ( Ronaldo in case of Man u and Drogba, Ballack, Essien and Cole in case of Chelsea).

Fair enough, But other seasons when Gerrard wasn't available we struggled and drew with teams like Sunderland! There were a lot of days like the one of Stoke.

Kuyt had the difficult task of replacing Torres and he made a very good game scoring two goals, Keane appeared in Madrid, and Alonso against Chelsea.

My point is that it's great to have world class players like Gerrard and Torres, but injuries will happen sooner or later. And when that happens the rest of the squad, those who are not key, the Aggers, the Alonsos, the Keanes, the Rieras, the Babels, the Benayouns, must prove their worth as premiership and Liverpool players.

For me, so far this season, they have done so. Both when Mascherano, Torres, and Gerrard weren't available. And I'm chuffed.

If luck had anything to do with it, if we can't rely to win often with narrow and scrappy wins, if it's a coincidence, or there's a real improvement that's what I want you to debate.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:06 pm

We are top of the league despite:

Keane not playing very well and on top of that not scoring in the league, and if you had to choose one or the other today you would have to say waste of money (don't think its anywhere close to the time to decide that and I still think he will come good)

Kuyt not having any pace and a terrible first touch

Torres being injured all the time

Mascherano hardly ever playing

Sub par play/injuries from the 3 fullbacks

Riera hasn't created many actual goals yet and he goes down too easily

This is where I find a lot of encouragement. We are already top of the league and there is plenty of room for improvement. We are no where near top form, I just hope that we get there and stay there for long stretches.

by **taff** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:09 pm

Gerrard is the most important Liverpool player in the last twenty odd years although we depended on him and became reliant on him. Of course every club would miss a world class player but I think in Rafas defence he has gathered a team of potential leaders and gerrard can sometimes just get on with being possibly the best midfielder in the world instead of trying to win games on his own

by **LFC2007** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:45 pm

Sabre wrote:If luck had anything to do with it, if we can't rely to win often with narrow and scrappy wins, if it's a coincidence, or there's a real improvement that's what I want you to debate.

We're still very much reliant on Gerrard and Torres in an attacking sense, perhaps less so with the arrival of Riera and the Keane - who hasn't scored yet, but who we can at least expect to rely on more than Kuyt, Babel or anyone else, given his record at Spurs. Despite his poor showing in front of goal, and his generally ineffectual performances, there have been one or two signs of a quality player e.g. Manc's, Everton, PSV, Wigan/Atletico occasionally. So, there's isn't a clear sign that he's lifted the burden carried mainly by Gerrard and Torres, but I imagine he'll have more to say in future matches. Riera's made the greatest impact by far. His qualities have been described in other threads, but to sum up his impact; he's provided a fantastic outlet, something we didn't have last season down the left flank. Just to be able to find him in the right position, and know that he'll keep the ball until the right option comes along is a huge improvement over Babel/Benayoun who occupied the position last term (and the start of this one), and who were far less effective at providing an outlet. In an attacking sense, he's a big improvement because he actually utilises possession more effectively, i.e. driving to the by-line, getting crosses in, linking up better with everyone and providing an all round improvement. In a defensive sense, it means we can retain possession for longer, and if they don't have the ball, they can't attack us. There's definitive proof of an improvement to us in his arrival, and that's offset some of the responsibility carried by Gerrard and Torres to c. However, he'd need to score more often, or pose more of a goal threat to suggest he'd be able to share a significant part of the goalscoring burden.

In other areas, Alonso has definitely improved and by a noticeable margin in my view. It's significant because it's an example of another player stepping up to the challenge, and any other player that improves reduces the burden on our two key players to some extent. He's helped us tick over in certain key games, e.g. Manc's, Everton, Chelsea. Kuyt's had a decent start to the campaign, scoring vital goals, but I'm skeptical that he'll be able to carry on and continue to bail us out in that respect. Mascherano's beginning to get back to his best after the Olympics, and performed very well alongside Alonso against the Manc's.

To sum up, we're still overly reliant on the two in an attacking sense, but I think there've definitely been improvements which have lessened the burden, though perhaps more so in respect of our general play and not so much in terms of goalscoring. Keane and Riera may have something to say about that in future, though. Another point is the general attitude of the players, which appears improved. They seem more up for the challenge if you like and that's a telling sign, because even in the absence of Torres and/or Gerrard they've risen to the challenge and worked their socks off to win the game.

Liverpool FC Forum

When the key players are not available - The squad is responding

Who is online