Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:24 am

FANTÔMAS wrote:Well, to be quite honest. At this moment and time, I don't think that Benítez is the one to take us to the first League title in nineteen years. I don't deny that he is a good manager, the fact that Valencia has struggled to replace him since he's left proves how much of an effect he had; at the same time I don't think his style fits within the Premiership.

I find him to be a rather frustrating figure a lot of the time. His lack of charisma, his questionable selection for big games and his tactical choices have made me question his managment skill of our club. I don't deny the effect that the ownership bickering had on last year, but I wouldn't readily justify our poor form throughout the most important parts of the season to be the doing of the owners.

I think if he doesn't deliver next season, than sitting down and deliberating whether the owners should keep him around is necessary. We don't need another Houllier that created the exodus of some of the most talented players we had in that time.

That just about sums up my opinion.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:27 am

So now Henchoz is not old now, he is just cr@p

He was pretty good when we won the triple though? He was also part of a defence that had the best record in the prem a couple of times.

No I didn't expect him to challenge immediately, I expected it would take him 3 or 4 years to build a team capable of winning the league. I also didn't expect so many players in and out that I not only can't spell half their names I cant remember who we have bought, sold or shot.

Josemi was a stopgap ? I suppose Kromkamp, Barragan, Arbeloa and Degen were stop gaps too

GK - Dudek, Kirkland, Carson, Reina, Martin, Padelli, Itandji,Cavalieri. Seven goalkeepers in 4 years? and they are just the ones I can remember , no doubt there are one or two I have forgotten

LB Traore, Riise, Warnock, Aurelio, Insua, Dossena + Arbeloa

RB Finnan, Josemi, Kromkamp, Barragan, Arbeloa , Degen + Carra

CB Hyypia, Henchoz, Carra, Pelligrino, Hobbs, Agger, Palletta, Skrtel, San jose, and what ever happened
to Medjani?

He has certainly kept his options!

We had Gerrard on the right as our only right midfielder

No we had Garcia as well, the reason Rafa played Gerrard and Cisse on the right was choice not because we didn't have alternatives.

What is the common denominator with those buys except the one that succeeded??
Not a single one of them cost 10 million+.
That will never get you a top class striker.

Thats what I have been telling you! Why keep buying strikers that are no better than what we already have?

When you have as little money as we have you have to prioritise, not use the scattergun approach. You have to pick and choose who you buy, not buy every available prospect. When Rafa first came to Liverpool he said "we have the best strike force in the prem, my priority is to sort out the right flank." 4 YEARS LATER and we still havent sorted it out. Finnan is still here, and we still have no quality right winger, or Kuyt wouldn't be playing there.

We were desperately short of wide players and a creative second striker, so he buys Lucas and Babel, thats over £16million pounds that could have brought us a top winger. Lucas and Babel may one day be world class...... they may not, the point is we had other more urgent priorities than to have another midfield player no matter how good he may be one day or a striker come winger who can't last longer than 60mins and is still learning his trade.

Same with Kuyt, Pennant, Benayoun, Bellamy etc etc

Buy quality and you buy once, buy cr@p and you just keep on buying again and again and again

Yes, we missed out on Alves, Diego, Aguero and Berbatov like Simao. But blame the board for that and not Rafa. When there is no money there is no money.

Rafa has had a MINIMUM budget of around £25million + any sales EVERY YEAR since he came ,(its in the annual accounts )apart from the first year when he only had £15million,but we had however bought a £14million striker just days before he came who Rafa was supposedly delighted with. So I am sure he could have bought the £10million+ striker you talk about sometime during the past 5 transfer windows IF HE HAD PRIORATISED IT.

When we missed out on Simao and Alves everyone was saying that it was because Rafa wouldn't pay more than they were worth or over the odds and what a great manager we had. When it turned out it was Parry that scuppered the deals it was suddenly a fkn disgrace, but if he had prioritised we would have had our right side sorted at least. Maybe we wouldnt have had Lucas or Crouch warming the bench for most of the season, but we would have quality players on the pitch.

The rest are, like I have said many times now, buys that could save us time and money in the future.
If one of them becomes really good we would make a huge profit and save a lot of money.

Damn! I thought the idea was to win the league not make a huge profit on players, its no wonder we can't agree I have been talking about buying quality players so we could actually win something, not make a profit when we sell them!

So you only count Torres and Masch and the rest as garbage

No I don't think they are garbage , just no better than the players we already had or young prospects that we will probably never get the benefit of anyway, because if we don't win something this season or at least make a decent fist of it, Rafa will be gone and no doubt the new manager will have is own ideas and plans and they will all get shunted off while we await the next boatload of signings.

The problem (as someone said in another thread)is our turn around of players is becoming a joke. By the time they have become settled in the club and we have found out that they are no better than the player they have replaced they are packing their bags and on their way.

Who should had played if we had not bought Bellamy, Pennant, Kuyt, Skrtel, Aurelio, Arbeloa, Benayoun, Babel etc

The players who are already at the club. Why sell a player who is settled with a club, knows the team and tactics, if you are just going to bring in a player of similar ability. Who then needs time to settle, time to get used to the prem etc etc.

Why sell Pongole, Baros, Cisse and Morientes if your just going to bring in Bellamy and Kuyt who are no better? Sell players and bring in Aguero or Diego or Van der vaart or even Alves if thats were we needed strengthening most and it begins to make sense.

Why buy Benayoun for £5million when we have already just bought Pennant for £7.5million the season before. Neither is good enough and we could have got a decent player for £12million.

As I said before buy quality and you buy once, buy Pennant and you just keep on buying, again and again and again

Too many players in and out, too many cheap throw away players, too many players "for the future" and way too many players that were no better than what we already had.

And thats my final word on it.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:24 am

s@int wrote:So now Henchoz is not old now, he is just cr@p He was pretty good when we won the triple though? He was also part of a defence that had the best record in the prem a couple of times.

No I didn't expect him to challenge immediately, I expected it would take him 3 or 4 years to build a team capable of winning the league. I also didn't expect so many players in and out that I not only can't spell half their names I cant remember who we have bought, sold or shot.

Josemi was a stopgap ? I suppose Kromkamp, Barragan, Arbeloa and Degen were stop gaps too

GK - Dudek, Kirkland, Carson, Reina, Martin, Padelli, Itandji,Cavalieri. Seven goalkeepers in 4 years? and they are just the ones I can remember , no doubt there are one or two I have forgotten

LB Traore, Riise, Warnock, Aurelio, Insua, Dossena + Arbeloa

RB Finnan, Josemi, Kromkamp, Barragan, Arbeloa , Degen + Carra

CB Hyypia, Henchoz, Carra, Pelligrino, Hobbs, Agger, Palletta, Skrtel, San jose, and what ever happened
to Medjani?

He has certainly kept his options!

We had Gerrard on the right as our only right midfielder

No we had Garcia as well, the reason Rafa played Gerrard and Cisse on the right was choice not because we didn't have alternatives.

What is the common denominator with those buys except the one that succeeded??
Not a single one of them cost 10 million+.
That will never get you a top class striker.

Thats what I have been telling you! Why keep buying strikers that are no better than what we already have?

When you have as little money as we have you have to prioritise, not use the scattergun approach. You have to pick and choose who you buy, not buy every available prospect. When Rafa first came to Liverpool he said "we have the best strike force in the prem, my priority is to sort out the right flank." 4 YEARS LATER and we still havent sorted it out. Finnan is still here, and we still have no quality right winger, or Kuyt wouldn't be playing there.

We were desperately short of wide players and a creative second striker, so he buys Lucas and Babel, thats over £16million pounds that could have brought us a top winger. Lucas and Babel may one day be world class...... they may not, the point is we had other more urgent priorities than to have another midfield player no matter how good he may be one day or a striker come winger who can't last longer than 60mins and is still learning his trade.

Same with Kuyt, Pennant, Benayoun, Bellamy etc etc

Buy quality and you buy once, buy cr@p and you just keep on buying again and again and again

Yes, we missed out on Alves, Diego, Aguero and Berbatov like Simao. But blame the board for that and not Rafa. When there is no money there is no money.

Rafa has had a MINIMUM budget of around £25million + any sales EVERY YEAR since he came ,(its in the annual accounts )apart from the first year when he only had £15million,but we had however bought a £14million striker just days before he came who Rafa was supposedly delighted with. So I am sure he could have bought the £10million+ striker you talk about sometime during the past 5 transfer windows IF HE HAD PRIORATISED IT.

When we missed out on Simao and Alves everyone was saying that it was because Rafa wouldn't pay more than they were worth or over the odds and what a great manager we had. When it turned out it was Parry that scuppered the deals it was suddenly a fkn disgrace, but if he had prioritised we would have had our right side sorted at least. Maybe we wouldnt have had Lucas or Crouch warming the bench for most of the season, but we would have quality players on the pitch.

The rest are, like I have said many times now, buys that could save us time and money in the future.
If one of them becomes really good we would make a huge profit and save a lot of money.

Damn! I thought the idea was to win the league not make a huge profit on players, its no wonder we can't agree I have been talking about buying quality players so we could actually win something, not make a profit when we sell them!

So you only count Torres and Masch and the rest as garbage

No I don't think they are garbage , just no better than the players we already had or young prospects that we will probably never get the benefit of anyway, because if we don't win something this season or at least make a decent fist of it, Rafa will be gone and no doubt the new manager will have is own ideas and plans and they will all get shunted off while we await the next boatload of signings.

The problem (as someone said in another thread)is our turn around of players is becoming a joke. By the time they have become settled in the club and we have found out that they are no better than the player they have replaced they are packing their bags and on their way.

Who should had played if we had not bought Bellamy, Pennant, Kuyt, Skrtel, Aurelio, Arbeloa, Benayoun, Babel etc

The players who are already at the club. Why sell a player who is settled with a club, knows the team and tactics, if you are just going to bring in a player of similar ability. Who then needs time to settle, time to get used to the prem etc etc.

Why sell Pongole, Baros, Cisse and Morientes if your just going to bring in Bellamy and Kuyt who are no better? Sell players and bring in Aguero or Diego or Van der vaart or even Alves if thats were we needed strengthening most and it begins to make sense.

Why buy Benayoun for £5million when we have already just bought Pennant for £7.5million the season before. Neither is good enough and we could have got a decent player for £12million.

As I said before buy quality and you buy once, buy Pennant and you just keep on buying, again and again and again

Too many players in and out, too many cheap throw away players, too many players "for the future" and way too many players that were no better than what we already had.

And thats my final word on it.

Great counter arguement S@int and that really does put Rafas transfer dealings into context.

Like most I believe this will be Rafas last season with us, unless we show improvement in the league and mount some sort of challenge. I'd like him to succeed here and I know its not any easy task to do.

I think Rafa needs to do two main things in which to make his task that little bit easier in the hope of a title challenge.

1) As you've said here, buy the right player. Give it large in the transfer market and put all his eggs in one basket to go and get a quality winger or two. He has shown that when hes gone big i.e Torres and Mascha he has got it spot on. I dont know why he's holding back on wide players, well I think I do. Thats been said in the Quaresma thread, where I personally think he doesnt entertain the idea of having a flair player or two out wide, because their work ethic for the team doesnt met his criteria in a player. He has to fight his demons

like John Craig said, I think he has an unhealthy obsession with grafters and "team players". Therefore we dont have the right balance in our team to beat stubborn defences. Cast our minds back to drab matches last season where we've failed to break down teams like Pompey and Brum, hink of the immediate frustration you had after that game, largely because we've been crying out for a game breaker.

That problem would be solved in he just went with a quality big game signing like he did with Torres.

2) The other important factor in my mind is ........ Rotation, that has been done to death round here so I need not say more. But like BM said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a "pro-rotationer" around here thinking 'carry on styling it Rafa, its working'

I knew I should of got my UEFA badge, this manager stuff sitting behind a computer is pish easy.

by **Owzat** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:07 am

s@int wrote:As I said before buy quality and you buy once, buy Pennant and you just keep on buying, again and again and again

Precisely. You could place where you think GB comes in this list as well, pricewise and playerwise

Players by price bracket

Top Bracket : £21m Torres, £17m Mascherano

Over £10m : £11.5m Babel, £10.5m Alonso. £10m Kuyt

Mid-price : £6.7m Pennant, £6m Morientes, £6m Bellamy, £6m Luis Garcia, £7m Crouch, £6m Skrtel, £5m Benayoun, £5.8m Agger, £6m Reina, £5m Lucas, Sissoko £5.8m, £7m Dossena

The rest aren't high enough prices to worry too much about, it's the excess of signings between £5m and £7m that worries me - although an £18m signing in the pipeline for a player who should be priced £12m-£15m does too.

Of those £5m to £7m (12), five have left, the remaining including Dossena (just signed), Pennant (wish him to be sixth leaver), Reina, Agger, Skrtel (all defensive so relatively expensive for their types) and Benayoun and Lucas (make of what you will) So the major successes for £5m to £7m are two CBs and a keeper, for whom that price is pretty expensive with most CBs costing less than £7m and keepers up to £9m.

It's no coincidence why we finished 11 points behind the mancs, our squad isn't that much less expensive than their's and they can't include all their expensive players in the XI at the same time while we more or less can.

Man Utd XI (£139m): Van Der Sar (n/a), Neville (n/a), Evra (£4m), Ferdinand (£30m), Vidic (£7m), Ronaldo (£12.24m), Nani (£12m), Carrick (£18m), Anderson (£18m), Rooney (£25m), Saha (£12.82m)

Liverpool XI (£105m): Reina (£6m), Arbeloa (£2.6m), Dossena (£7m), Skrtel (£6m), Agger (£5.8m), Pennant (£6.7m), Babel (£11.5m), Alonso (£10.5m), Mascherano (£17m), Kuyt (£10m), Torres (£21m)

Add a couple of £18m to £20m signings and that difference will be down to less than the difference between Ferdinand and Agger's fees (£24m)

Potential Liverpool XI (£126m): Reina (£6m), Arbeloa (£2.6m), Dossena (£7m), Skrtel (£6m), Agger (£5.8m), Kuyt (£10m), Babel (£11.5m), Barny (£18m), Mascherano (£17m), Keane (£20m), Torres (£21m)

So three changes and supposedly that's going to make the difference. I wonder if it will. And as I've said many times before, most of the games are against weaker teams and we're still dropping points there. We need to be more consistent in those games as well as more competitive in games against the big four (P6 W0 D4 L2 last season)

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:01 pm

s@int wrote:So now Henchoz is not old now, he is just cr@p He was pretty good when we won the triple though? He was also part of a defence that had the best record in the prem a couple of times.

No I didn't expect him to challenge immediately, I expected it would take him 3 or 4 years to build a team capable of winning the league. I also didn't expect so many players in and out that I not only can't spell half their names I cant remember who we have bought, sold or shot.

Josemi was a stopgap ? I suppose Kromkamp, Barragan, Arbeloa and Degen were stop gaps too

GK - Dudek, Kirkland, Carson, Reina, Martin, Padelli, Itandji,Cavalieri. Seven goalkeepers in 4 years? and they are just the ones I can remember , no doubt there are one or two I have forgotten

LB Traore, Riise, Warnock, Aurelio, Insua, Dossena + Arbeloa

RB Finnan, Josemi, Kromkamp, Barragan, Arbeloa , Degen + Carra

CB Hyypia, Henchoz, Carra, Pelligrino, Hobbs, Agger, Palletta, Skrtel, San jose, and what ever happened
to Medjani?

He has certainly kept his options!

We had Gerrard on the right as our only right midfielder

No we had Garcia as well, the reason Rafa played Gerrard and Cisse on the right was choice not because we didn't have alternatives.

What is the common denominator with those buys except the one that succeeded??
Not a single one of them cost 10 million+.
That will never get you a top class striker.

When you have as little money as we have you have to prioritise, not use the scattergun approach. You have to pick and choose who you buy, not buy every available prospect. When Rafa first came to Liverpool he said "we have the best strike force in the prem, my priority is to sort out the right flank." 4 YEARS LATER and we still havent sorted it out. Finnan is still here, and we still have no quality right winger, or Kuyt wouldn't be playing there.

We were desperately short of wide players and a creative second striker, so he buys Lucas and Babel, thats over £16million pounds that could have brought us a top winger. Lucas and Babel may one day be world class...... they may not, the point is we had other more urgent priorities than to have another midfield player no matter how good he may be one day or a striker come winger who can't last longer than 60mins and is still learning his trade.

Same with Kuyt, Pennant, Benayoun, Bellamy etc etc

Buy quality and you buy once, buy cr@p and you just keep on buying again and again and again

Yes, we missed out on Alves, Diego, Aguero and Berbatov like Simao. But blame the board for that and not Rafa. When there is no money there is no money.

Rafa has had a MINIMUM budget of around £25million + any sales EVERY YEAR since he came ,(its in the annual accounts )apart from the first year when he only had £15million,but we had however bought a £14million striker just days before he came who Rafa was supposedly delighted with. So I am sure he could have bought the £10million+ striker you talk about sometime during the past 5 transfer windows IF HE HAD PRIORATISED IT.

When we missed out on Simao and Alves everyone was saying that it was because Rafa wouldn't pay more than they were worth or over the odds and what a great manager we had. When it turned out it was Parry that scuppered the deals it was suddenly a fkn disgrace, but if he had prioritised we would have had our right side sorted at least. Maybe we wouldnt have had Lucas or Crouch warming the bench for most of the season, but we would have quality players on the pitch.

The rest are, like I have said many times now, buys that could save us time and money in the future.
If one of them becomes really good we would make a huge profit and save a lot of money.

Damn! I thought the idea was to win the league not make a huge profit on players, its no wonder we can't agree I have been talking about buying quality players so we could actually win something, not make a profit when we sell them!

So you only count Torres and Masch and the rest as garbage

No I don't think they are garbage , just no better than the players we already had or young prospects that we will probably never get the benefit of anyway, because if we don't win something this season or at least make a decent fist of it, Rafa will be gone and no doubt the new manager will have is own ideas and plans and they will all get shunted off while we await the next boatload of signings.

The problem (as someone said in another thread)is our turn around of players is becoming a joke. By the time they have become settled in the club and we have found out that they are no better than the player they have replaced they are packing their bags and on their way.

Who should had played if we had not bought Bellamy, Pennant, Kuyt, Skrtel, Aurelio, Arbeloa, Benayoun, Babel etc

The players who are already at the club. Why sell a player who is settled with a club, knows the team and tactics, if you are just going to bring in a player of similar ability. Who then needs time to settle, time to get used to the prem etc etc.

Why sell Pongole, Baros, Cisse and Morientes if your just going to bring in Bellamy and Kuyt who are no better? Sell players and bring in Aguero or Diego or Van der vaart or even Alves if thats were we needed strengthening most and it begins to make sense.

Why buy Benayoun for £5million when we have already just bought Pennant for £7.5million the season before. Neither is good enough and we could have got a decent player for £12million.

As I said before buy quality and you buy once, buy Pennant and you just keep on buying, again and again and again

Too many players in and out, too many cheap throw away players, too many players "for the future" and way too many players that were no better than what we already had.

And thats my final word on it.

Well, concerning Henchoz.

At the time Rafa arrived we had an aging and extremly slow defensive pairing. You just think Rafa came along and said to himself:

"heck, that Henchoz guy just will not play anymore."

Obviously he saw something in training about the player or came to the conclusion that he was too slow for the PL.

And about that defenisive record under Houliier.
Since we had a very slow defense how much did that force
the team to play with a low backline and a deep team to accommodate the cb's. So while the defensive record at times were great how many games under Houllier did we score 3 goals or more?

And the treble was more than years ago which means Henchoz and Hyppia were 26-27 at the time in their prime.

About selling and buying so many players.
Have you not been reading anything I have wrote?
Rafa did need almost a whole new team if as you
wrote we would need at least 3-4 years to build a team.
And once again there was no 114 million on day one when rafa arrived 2004.
So those 114 million has had to be used to build a totally new squad over 4 years.
That will not get you far if you start spending 15 million+ per player. You can not in todays game go out and have a great 1st elven and then random garbage filling out the rest of the squad. Not if you want to challenge. And Rafa's head would roll if he said to the owners:

"**** the CL and the FA cup."

A total of 60 games is way too much, with injuries, fatigue and the tempo of the game, to suruve with just those players.
With Torres and Masch already 40 million out of those 114 million is used. That leave 74 million for 18 players!!!!
Use logic please!

ya, those players are more or less stop gaps cause that is a position that Rafa hasn't prioritied compared to other positions. Like I have said, we can't afford to get more than maybe 1 player each year of that top quality you require.
It costs too much.

And really how many of those goalkeepers have played more than 5-10 games?
Dudek and Kirkland was not not good enough/his buys and sold at a loss.
Rafa's own buys have all been good value for money gone up in value and Reina was a huge find.
I had no idea our goalkeeping department were a problem area. It's not until now that Rafa has been able to spend any money on a 2nd goalkeeper in Cavalieri.

At left back how much has each players cost?
There just hasn't been enough mney to spend on that position until now when Dossena came.
The total outlay by Rafa on lbs was under 2 million until then.

At rb once again the same. When other positions are more important money can't be spent. A total outlay on 2.5 million on rb's so far. And we still don't have a world class rb...?

At cb I think Rafa has done excellent. He has had 12 million to spend to replace Hyppia and Henchoz and has got us Agger and Skrtel. I find that excellent business. Pellegrino was used 6 month as cover and cost 0 since we didn't have any money at the time.
The rest are just buys that Rafa needs to make for the future
like Hobbs, Paletta, San Jose etc. No risk either since we will get the money back.
Medjani went back to Lorient in France after another of Houllier's buys turned out not good enough.

How can you call that too many CB's?
Hyppia and Henchoz had to be replaced. Hobbs, Paletta, San Jose etc were not intended much for the 1st team and cost very little. Only Agger and Sketrel has cost money and only them has been used to strenghten that 1st team.
There were times last season were we had just Carra and Hyppia as our only real alternatives at cb until Skertel was bought.

I's say in total that our backline is rather thin at the moment.

Garcia was and never will be a right midfielder.
He is too much of a defensive liability to be able to to use him all the times. Besides Garcia had to be used just as much if not more on the left cause we had noone there.

Cisse was and expensive buy but wasn't good enough as a striker so he had to play him somewhere to shop him for those watching.

Thats what I have been telling you! Why keep buying strikers that are no better than what we already have?

And how many times do I have to tell you:

There has not been enough money to buy better at that given point in time!!!
And no, when you have little money as we do have, you must make sure you don't put all balls in one hat.
You can't go searching the reserve squad every time a starting player gets injured.
The shift in quality is way too much nowadays.
And when Rafa came he did not know that

1) Owen was on the doorstep
2) Cisse was :censored:

3) Baros would be injured 3-4 month during the season
leaving us with Mellor and Pongolle

And since Rafa prioritise the spine of the team 1st a top class right winger has been out of our budget so far.

But Lucas and Babel are very promising.
What in the future and we can't afford to pay 20 million for players anymore. But thanks to Babel and Lucas getting better and being valued at around 20 million each in the future
we would still have top class players while not having the spening power of our rivals.
So instead of buying a winger at 27/28 for 15-20 million today with a resale value of 6 in 3 years, we might have two top class players in a few years worth 30-40 million and would last us 10 years of good football.

Those 4 besides maybe Kuyt are 2nd choice targets that was all we could afford at the time!

And what was he supposed to say about Cisse?
Rumors said we tried to cancel the deal when Rafa came
but we couldn't and had to keep him. He had to say he was delighted or he would alienate Cisse from day 1.
That left a big hole right from day 1 for Rafa who was stuck with one of the most overvalued played the past decade and 6-7 million to spend.
No he could not have spent 10 million+ on a striker unless
some other part of the team had to suffer. Why not not have a lw at all or a rw? Or maybe hope no players at the backline gets injured so we skip buying Agger or Arbeloa?
And The 14 million for Cisse were already gone and never coming back. 6 million is all we got back.

As far as I have read it was the board that would not sanction
the deals if they cost too much.
C'mon, you know Parry is taking holidays at the most unappropriate times making him look very unprofessional.

But Crouch and Lucas was not bought in the same transfer window and let's look at Crouch. At the time we had almost no strikers when he was bought. Baros needed replacement and Cisse had just came back from a leg break and was showing signs of not being good enough. We had only 7 million to spend then on a striker.
What should he had done?
Saved the 7 million and use Cisse and Morientes as our only strikers with Pongolle and Mellor as backups?
There is no way you can do that.
It doesn't matter if he could get a 10 million+ striker next summer then cause he has to think about the present to some degree also so the team stays competetive for the coming season.

Well, the main purpose of those buys is that hopefully they will save us a lot of money and let us stay competetive in the future if we can't afford 15 million+ for players.
You think so shortsighted only about having 11 top class players and no care if the rest of our club stinks and has no players coming through the ranks.
That is a suicidal mindset. We can not afford to buy together a finished team like Chelski.
If the youth setup Rafa has bought brings in players that can play for us we can stay competetive for years also in the future. And if some are not deemed good enough they can still be sold at a profit to another club after loans.
It is a win-win situation. Ok, they might cost 20 million now but has the potential to be worth way over 100 millions down the road.

Well, I totally disagree that the players we have now besides Torres and Masch.

Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Dossena, Alonso, Babel etc are just half decent players that are no better than what Houllier left us with. Total nonsense that.
And you suggest we might as well scrap any youth team then
since it's only a waste. Good plan....

That is gradual improvment for ya. Not instant, because that is twe kind we can't afford, but gradual. Sure, it can leave you impatient but it is the only way.

Like I said before 3-4 years fast forward from when Houllier left when even you said you didn't expect a challange and it is damn obvious a whole new squad had to win the title.
How do you get a whole new squad of 20 players with 114 million?
Please solve that equation for me without saying:

"let us just spend 20 million on 5 players" and let the other 15 come from the reserves, Tranmere and Wrexham.

But why ot sell a player if he turns out he isn't good enough, no matter how well he knows the team and tactics.
In my eyes Baros, Cisse and Morinentes was worse for Liverpool fotball club than Bellamy. Baros could not cut it at Villa, Lyon, Portsmouth or anywhere else for the matter.
The market decides the value of a player and it is no coincidence Bellamy cost more than both Baros and Cisse when they were sold.
And I am not saying bellamy was a world beater, just better.
Kuyt is not someone I want to discuss. Don't even know what to call him, striker or midfielder.

But we can't just sell recklessly and leave holes in our squad with no backups at all. And then I am not sure if the old board would snction deals above 15 million anyway.

But we had to relplace Garcia who went back to spain.
At the time we did not know Kuyt hidden talents as a densive right sided midfielder, so Pennant was out only option out right since Gerrard had moved back to the centre.
Besides weith Garcia gone we had no attacking central midfielder at all in the whole team who could add a spark and
lock up defenses. Benayoun is a different player to Pennant and was a replacement for Garcia.

Please get this!
Rafa didn't want Pennant as his 1st choice. He wanted Alves, Simao or someone like that. The clubs demanded 12 million+
We desperatly needed a right winger as we had noone really.
Garcia played more on the left and was always more of a 2nd striker. We had at the time only 7-10 million maxmium in our budget to spend on a rw. Conclusion, we bought Pennant.
No matter if we will be forced to change him again in the future it is the way the reality is for lfc.
Gradual improvement and a slight upgrade year to year.

It is a financial matter and no way would the team look like it did today of Rafa had the cash he had wanted to get his 1st choice targets over the years.

We need to take into consideration our monetary disadvantage towards or rivals like Wenger has done at Arsenal by developing young talent and saving us millions which we wouldn't have otherwise.
You need a big squad in todays game and of a good enough quality. If you only have 25 million to spend on 4-5 positions
then you do that and not spend 25 on 2 positions and pray to god during the season that noone on those 3 positions you omitted becomes injured during the season.
Because then you are screwed!

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:32 pm

These are reasons why I like Rafa. He is extremely thurough
and demands alot of the players.

Torres interview.

"The goals I scored for Liverpool last season gave me the confidence I needed to take into the Euros," the ex-Atletico Madrid man continued.

"I have to thank Rafa and the staff for the help they have given me. I improved as a player because of them.

"Rafa is obsessed with details and he even had a programme worked out for me before I got here last summer. He makes crazy demands on us. At the end of training, when we're all tired, he can still make us repeat routines 20 or 30 times."

by **bigmick** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:43 pm

I got as far as the bit where you said you can't just concentrate on the first team and have rubbish as back up 'not if you want to challenge'. Well we haven't challenged. Ever. Even a little bit. So it is therefore reasonable to assume that if our goal was all along to at some point to mount a challenge, that we have failed so to do. If on the other hand our transfer and team selection policy was set out without the ultimate objective that at some point we would try and win the league, then it has broadly done what it says on the tin.

For my part, call me a wild optimist/a bullsh!tter/a cocktail barman/a wool or whatever else, I'd quite like to see us have a go sometime. Soon would be good.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Penguins wrote:"Rafa is obsessed with details and he even had a programme worked out for me before I got here last summer.

How can someone who is obsessed with details, ask Peter Crouch to play left wing, or think it is correct to make 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of the season? I just don't get it, sorry. I've tried, God knows I've tried, but I just don't get it.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:11 pm

bigmick wrote:
Penguins wrote:"Rafa is obsessed with details and he even had a programme worked out for me before I got here last summer.

How can someone who is obsessed with details, ask Peter Crouch to play left wing, or think it is correct to make 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of the season? I just don't get it, sorry. I've tried, God knows I've tried, but I just don't get it.

he is just rotating

by **LegBarnes** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:13 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Penguins wrote:"Rafa is obsessed with details and he even had a programme worked out for me before I got here last summer.

How can someone who is obsessed with details, ask Peter Crouch to play left wing, or think it is correct to make 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of the season? I just don't get it, sorry. I've tried, God knows I've tried, but I just don't get it.

he is just rotating

His brain to his buttocks ?

by **maguskwt** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:17 pm

bigmick wrote:
Penguins wrote:"Rafa is obsessed with details and he even had a programme worked out for me before I got here last summer.

How can someone who is obsessed with details, ask Peter Crouch to play left wing, or think it is correct to make 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of the season? I just don't get it, sorry. I've tried, God knows I've tried, but I just don't get it.

it has nothing to do with being obsessed with details or being thorough... it is his football philosophy...

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:25 pm

This is definately my last word so listen carefully and try to understand.
1st season

Rafa started off with Houlliers team + Cisse. To that team he added 6 players BUT ONLY 2 IMPROVED THE TEAM, Josemi, Nunez, Alonso, Morientes,Pelegrino and Garcia. We WON THE CL LEAGUE, got to the final of the league cup and came fifth. So the team while by no means perfect was ticking over and getting some rewards. 9 Houllier players in the CL FINAL FOR EXAMPLE.

2nd season
Rafa shunted out Pelegrino and Nunez(his transfers) and Baros as the only significant sale (8 OR 9 players were given free transfers)

He brought in Crouch to replace Baros, Reina, Carson,Martin, Sissoko, and then Agger (at Christmas) and another 10 players inc Fowler as a stop gap to cover for the misfiring Morientes, and Kromkamp as a swop for Josemi.(two of HIS SIGNINGS)

So TWO YEARS INTO THE JOB and the only significant sale was Baros (Owen Diouf and Murphy never played a game for him)

WE WON THE FA CUP AND FINISHED 3RD IN THE LEAGUE. The team is still more Houllier's players than Rafa's with 7 Houllier players in the team against West ham with another 3 Houllier players on the bench.

3RD SEASON

Sells Morientes and Kromkamp (his signings) with Kirkland and Traore the only significant other sales BUT Hamann was also allowed to leave.

Buys Bellamy to replace Cisse who leaves on loan, Pennant, Kuyt to replace Morientes, Palletta, Aurelio an another 6 players. At Christmas he brings in Arbeloa and loans in Masch.

So THE IDEA that he was selling to buy is cr@p. The only players he was selling apart from Baros Kirkland and Traore where the PLAYERS HE HAD BOUGHT!

We reached the FINAL OF THE CL AND FINISHED 3RD AGAIN. For the first time the team win nothing but is more Rafa's than Houlliers. Only 4 Houllier players in the team for the final with another 3 on the bench.

So after 3 years and 36 transfers in we Finally start to see significant sales out.

Garcia, Bellamy, Gonzales, Palletta, Sissoko (ALL Rafa signings) with Fowler and Zenden free in free out, and Pongole and Cisse(who had been on loan)

BEGINNING TO SEE A PATTERN YET? Heres a clue FOURTH SEASON won nothing finished 4th

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:35 pm

bigmick wrote:I got as far as the bit where you said you can't just concentrate on the first team and have rubbish as back up 'not if you want to challenge'. Well we haven't challenged. Ever. Even a little bit. So it is therefore reasonable to assume that if our goal was all along to at some point to mount a challenge, that we have failed so to do. If on the other hand our transfer and team selection policy was set out without the ultimate objective that at some point we would try and win the league, then it has broadly done what it says on the tin.

For my part, call me a wild optimist/a bullsh!tter/a cocktail barman/a wool or whatever else, I'd quite like to see us have a go sometime. Soon would be good.

I am concerned mostly about both the prestent and the long term future of the club. Unless you and me go to the states and force the yanks to actually spend money of their own on 3-4 15 million players, so we can get to where our rivals are, the quick fix just is not going to work.
And playing 11 players 10 months in 60+ games, no injuries touch wood, will just kill the team in February.
And no, skipping all other competitions is not an option since we need them at least financially and winning the CL improves our rep in europe.
I don't want to stand there in February with a league lead and then have 3-4 players injured and the rest fatigued and see our season fall to pieces when the reserve team players try to do the business.

I believe Rafa has spent the money he has had very wisely
to have at least some backups that could cover for the starters and still have young prospects that actually could make it big.

When did Houiller get a young player, that made you feel he could become something in the 1st team, which he
got here and not fell onto his lap?
None whatsoever. That is not the way forward with the known economic landscape.

If you look at our squad right now I would not say it is big at all compared to pur rivals.

Reina and Cavalieri in goal. Excellent paring and both cheap in my book.
We whined for years that we had no good goalkeeper. Enter
Reina. Reina class and superb at 6 million. Since then we have whined that we have no good backup. No wonder since we couldn't afford anyone beyond 2 million. So now we get maybe the most talanted keeper from South America for 3.5 million and now it is a waste of money...
And he still made a lot of money on Carson....
We have actually little more that are good enough right now.

Not until now for the 1st time do we have 2 good keepers at the club. Because there was not enough money until now.

Arbeloa and Degen at rb. No money spent in ths position practically. Finnan at 32 already went backwards last season
and no player for the future. That is about it.

Dossena and Aurelio at lb. That is about it. Insua might actually be loaned out as it is obvious he isn't ready yet.

Carra, Skrtel and Agger is what we have at cb. Hyppia is on his final year no doubt.

I would call that more a thin than bloated backline as Degen is a big unknown while Hyppia and finnan on their final year most likely.

At right wing we have Pennant and Kuyt since Kuyt is no striker. Not much else.

At left wing Babel and Benayoun is all we have and nothing else.

Central mid we have Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Lucas.
The most important position on the field so it need tobe strong. Too many? I still think you need that have 4.
if we would loose one of those I would not fell comfortable if we don't bring in someone who can play there also and be good.

As strikers we have Torres.....oh yeah Voronin and the kids not to forget.

I would not call this such a big squad where we have wasted so much money. In many places actually rather thin.

I also want to win in the close future, but please give me some viable options and not fantasy or just dissatisfaction.
I mean, there sure are many top class mangers out there and even less available.
And not only does he have to do better he also has to convince all the players here not to leave even if there is no money. Right now it is obvious Rafa is held in high regard with many players and I would argue some signings like Reina, Masch and Torres would not have come so easily as they did without Rafa at the helm.

by **Number 9** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:47 pm

s@int wrote:This is definately my last word so listen carefully and try to understand.
1st season

Rafa started off with Houlliers team + Cisse. To that team he added 6 players BUT ONLY 2 IMPROVED THE TEAM, Josemi, Nunez, Alonso, Morientes,Pelegrino and Garcia. We WON THE CL LEAGUE, got to the final of the league cup and came fifth. So the team while by no means perfect was ticking over and getting some rewards. 9 Houllier players in the CL FINAL FOR EXAMPLE.

2nd season
Rafa shunted out Pelegrino and Nunez(his transfers) and Baros as the only significant sale (8 OR 9 players were given free transfers)

He brought in Crouch to replace Baros, Reina, Carson,Martin, Sissoko, and then Agger (at Christmas) and another 10 players inc Fowler as a stop gap to cover for the misfiring Morientes, and Kromkamp as a swop for Josemi.(two of HIS SIGNINGS)

So TWO YEARS INTO THE JOB and the only significant sale was Baros (Owen Diouf and Murphy never played a game for him)

WE WON THE FA CUP AND FINISHED 3RD IN THE LEAGUE. The team is still more Houllier's players than Rafa's with 7 Houllier players in the team against West ham with another 3 Houllier players on the bench.

3RD SEASON

Sells Morientes and Kromkamp (his signings) with Kirkland and Traore the only significant other sales BUT Hamann was also allowed to leave.

Buys Bellamy to replace Cisse who leaves on loan, Pennant, Kuyt to replace Morientes, Palletta, Aurelio an another 6 players. At Christmas he brings in Arbeloa and loans in Masch.

So THE IDEA that he was selling to buy is cr@p. The only players he was selling apart from Baros Kirkland and Traore where the PLAYERS HE HAD BOUGHT!

We reached the FINAL OF THE CL AND FINISHED 3RD AGAIN. For the first time the team win nothing but is more Rafa's than Houlliers. Only 4 Houllier players in the team for the final with another 3 on the bench.

So after 3 years and 36 transfers in we Finally start to see significant sales out.

Garcia, Bellamy, Gonzales, Palletta, Sissoko (ALL Rafa signings) with Fowler and Zenden free in free out, and Pongole and Cisse(who had been on loan)

BEGINNING TO SEE A PATTERN YET? Heres a clue FOURTH SEASON won nothing finished 4th

I see what you are trying to say Saint!
So if offered would you swap the team Houllier left for the one Raffa has built?
Because I surely would'nt mate!

Maybe Rafa over achieved winning the C/L in 2005?

I dont care what anyone says but our squad is by far better with more quality and depth than it was when Houllier left.Yes they are yet to achieve in the EPL but if you only focus on ourselves you are forgetting something very significant!

Our competetors have improved more in the last 4 years than ever IMO.The UTD team is as strong as i can remember and maybe the best they have had in decades!
Chelsea have an open cheque book and can buy anyone who is willing to play for them.
Arsenal have outplayed almost every team they meet.How Wenger has done what he has is amazing and should be respected by every fan of football!He is a one off.

Its OK to complain about Rafa and pick holes in his signings but to understand why he has not been successful in the EPL we need to look beyond LFC and Rafa!

Saying all this and as usual defending Rafa if we sign Keane and Barry and the manager does not do well and show huge improvements in the League this year,i will feel its time to get someone new!
I can forgive the dodgy signings in the past as i feel he did not fully grasp what type of player was needed in our League.I also feel that due to his obvious stubborness he has stuck with his own mindset and ideas for too long!
BUT it looks though that now he has conceeded to himself that buying foreign unproven players is a gamble and bringing in proven EPL players is the way to go.

I think we will do better this season but im not sure Rafa can do well enough to keep his job!
Hopefully he can prove me wrong.

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:10 pm

s@int wrote:This is definately my last word so listen carefully and try to understand.
1st season

Rafa started off with Houlliers team + Cisse. To that team he added 6 players BUT ONLY 2 IMPROVED THE TEAM, Josemi, Nunez, Alonso, Morientes,Pelegrino and Garcia. We WON THE CL LEAGUE, got to the final of the league cup and came fifth. So the team while by no means perfect was ticking over and getting some rewards. 9 Houllier players in the CL FINAL FOR EXAMPLE.

2nd season
Rafa shunted out Pelegrino and Nunez(his transfers) and Baros as the only significant sale (8 OR 9 players were given free transfers)

He brought in Crouch to replace Baros, Reina, Carson,Martin, Sissoko, and then Agger (at Christmas) and another 10 players inc Fowler as a stop gap to cover for the misfiring Morientes, and Kromkamp as a swop for Josemi.(two of HIS SIGNINGS)

So TWO YEARS INTO THE JOB and the only significant sale was Baros (Owen Diouf and Murphy never played a game for him)

WE WON THE FA CUP AND FINISHED 3RD IN THE LEAGUE. The team is still more Houllier's players than Rafa's with 7 Houllier players in the team against West ham with another 3 Houllier players on the bench.

3RD SEASON

Sells Morientes and Kromkamp (his signings) with Kirkland and Traore the only significant other sales BUT Hamann was also allowed to leave.

Buys Bellamy to replace Cisse who leaves on loan, Pennant, Kuyt to replace Morientes, Palletta, Aurelio an another 6 players. At Christmas he brings in Arbeloa and loans in Masch.

So THE IDEA that he was selling to buy is cr@p. The only players he was selling apart from Baros Kirkland and Traore where the PLAYERS HE HAD BOUGHT!

We reached the FINAL OF THE CL AND FINISHED 3RD AGAIN. For the first time the team win nothing but is more Rafa's than Houlliers. Only 4 Houllier players in the team for the final with another 3 on the bench.

So after 3 years and 36 transfers in we Finally start to see significant sales out.

Garcia, Bellamy, Gonzales, Palletta, Sissoko (ALL Rafa signings) with Fowler and Zenden free in free out, and Pongole and Cisse(who had been on loan)

BEGINNING TO SEE A PATTERN YET? Heres a clue FOURTH SEASON won nothing finished 4th

About those 6 players he brought in. Pellegrino was brought in for 6 months as we nned a backup and cost nothing since we had no money!
And is it a coincidence that the 2 players that actually cost the most improved the team vastly?
Nunez was more or less forced down Rafa's throat and flogged of at an amazing 2 million after a year.
What did we have besides Finnan at rb?
Nobody that is who. And with little money to spend Josemi
was what we got. You get what you pay for...
Rafa's fault the club had no money?
Morientes was only brought in in January and was desperatly needed with baros and Cisse out for a long time.
We only had 6-7 million and we needed a striker that matched our demands. But I am sure you unlike everyone else say that it was a terrible buy....

Ye,ye. Gerrard was a houllier buy and are you sure he didn't breastfeed him also?

I have already told you about the CL before but obviously we watched different games during 05 and 07.

Once again you go after our 6th month safety free transfer with a vengence. He was FREE and we needed cover and had no money!
I have already mentioned Nunez and he was no bought by Rafa but forced upon him in the owen deal. Most obviously to get as much value as he could at the time. Nunez practucally never figured much so all it did was raise Owen's sale value to 10.5 million.

Crouch and upgrade on Baros. Reina a neccessity.
Carson and Martin cost penauts and in Carson's case has reaped the rewards I mentioned.
Once again Kromkamp was and upgrade on Josemi and Rafa had to be creative as he had no money but still found a dumb team will to make a stright swap.
How can you critizise the Fowler deal?
Rafa once again with little money needed to fill a need and got us god back. great for all parties involved and a great feel good story.

Already gone through Sissoko and Agge in previous posts.

Yeah, his only significant sale was Baros. Why???

Beacuse Houllier left us with NONE who actually was saleable!
The youth team stunk, the reserve team stunk even worse and we had no fringe players in Houllier days that actually could be sold for any money.

That is what Rafa had to suffer because of all those buys in Houllier's last 2 years that was worth absolutely nothing after 2 years.
30 millions+salaries just wasted on players who had no resale value at all.

I see nothing strange in the transfer acticity at all.
it becomes this circle when you don't have the money to make
one 15 million+ signing for each position.
Instead rafa has to spend 6 million on a striker one summer to buy a 8-9 million striker in a nummer or 2.

And so what which players he sold?
The common denominator for both his early cheap buys(when money was scarce) and Houlliers signings was that they were not good enough and had to be sold.

And now we are back the 07 final again which had more Rafa players than Houllier players. unlike the 05 which had more Houllier signings.

And once again I ask you the same question I asked a few posts ago:

Do you honestly after watching those 2 games say that the team in 05 didn't get completely outplayed by Milan and very lucky to reach penalties?
And did we or did we not outplay Milan in the 07 final which for some bad luck, the decision to play Kuyt and a flukey goal by Milan had gone the other way?

My conclusion is that the team in 07 were miles better than the one in 05. Just my opinion mind....
I do think others share my view though.

And?
I still think Rafa did ok in his 4th season with the ownership ordeal, more players to bed into the team.
It's not his fault our rivals can spash the cash and doesn't need to upgrade but buy the top class product straight away
(which means their teams has had more time to gel) or that manure has the world's best player.
His main gamble and only player ever to grace the 20 million mark became one of the best strikers in the world and is worth more than twice what we paid.
The same amount that our rivals spend on almost every new signing they make for their 1st team. Great with level playing grounds don't you think?

As I have said so many times. The 114 millions is what Rafa has had to get a whole new squad. THAT IS PEANUTS IN TODAYS GAME!
So he has had to be creative and I think he has done more than an ok job in my book.

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