Liverpool FC Forum

[J*o*n*D*o*e]

Saint Rafa   sounds like a match made in heaven

[account deleted by request]

As I have repeatedly pointed out to you RAFA didn't fkn start at the club with no fkn team. HE ALREADY HAD AROUND 12 GOOD PLAYERS when he came. Add 10 OR 11 £10MILLION POUND PLAYERS TO THOSE AND YOU HAVE A FULL SQUAD of top talent. We may have had to struggle to win the league for 2 or three years while the class players were brought in, but as we haven't won the league anyway it hardly matters, and we won the CL final with 12 players left to him by Houllier + 2 Rafa players

Its not that hard to understand

We had Dudek,Finnan, Riise, Carra ,Hyypia, Hamann, Gerrard, Pongole,Kewell, Owen, Cisse, Baros. Then we had the cr@p to make up the numbers, some of which wern't THAT BAD like Biscan and Murphy.

You buy two or three top class players a season and within 4 years you have a team of outstanding talent with a decent squad. Once the team and the squad are sorted you can then just add to it as needed. Then you start to invest in young talent, while still replacing players as necessary.

It sounds so easy , friggen hell rafa lad your sh!te. You should have fecked sami lee off and employed saint instead.




Only messin with yer mate.

You're only saying that because I said Biscan wasn't that bad 

[account deleted by request]

I don't quite agree Mick, Rafa has bought well (certainly when he has splashed the cash) but bought too many average players that were little or no better than what we already had, too many squad players and not enough quality first teamers. He has also never really got around to addressing the problem wide areas of the team, while strengthening areas that we already imo had sufficient quality. 

I accept your rotation theories (to an extent) but feel that the lack of a couple of quality wide players or a creative second striker has cost us much more than rotation ever will.

I always thought Houllier played to the teams strengths very well, but always lacked an option "B", and that if we went a goal down we might as well pack our bags and go home

Certainly I think Rafa is a better more astute manager than Houllier, but I still think Houllier did a good job until his heart problem.  There is really no comparison though, Rafa is streets ahead of Houllier as a manager.

[LegBarnes]

wtf. this sport has gotten so complicated. it used to be ''just put the ball in the net and win the game''. now its full of tosh. anyway, why does rafa buy so many youngsters? does he think he is gonna stay here for many years to come? the yanks are in debt and wouldnt they want a title win ASAP to earn some revenue from it thus they might sack rafa?

you dont have to win prem for money you just need to get parry out and get some one in who knows how to make money not spend it on fu.cking clown shoes.

We have same sponser every year i think parry takes back handers of them to get cheap sponsership.

I think he takes us fans for a fu.cking ride he prob makes 10 times he wage in free b's and expenses + back handers.

Guy is the joker like in batman fu.cking nasty clown that fu.cks people over but just not as cool.

[Penguins]

As I have repeatedly pointed out to you RAFA didn't fkn start at the club with no fkn team. HE ALREADY HAD AROUND 12 GOOD PLAYERS when he came. Add 10 OR 11 £10MILLION POUND PLAYERS TO THOSE AND YOU HAVE A FULL SQUAD of top talent. We may have had to struggle to win the league for 2 or three years while the class players were brought in, but as we haven't won the league anyway it hardly matters, and we won the CL final with 12 players left to him by Houllier + 2 Rafa players

Its not that hard to understand

We had Dudek,Finnan, Riise, Carra ,Hyypia, Hamann, Gerrard, Pongole,Kewell, Owen, Cisse, Baros. Then we had the cr@p to make up the numbers, some of which wern't THAT BAD like Biscan and Murphy.

You buy two or three top class players a season and within 4 years you have a team of outstanding talent with a decent squad. Once the team and the squad are sorted you can then just add to it as needed. Then you start to invest in young talent, while still replacing players as necessary.

But it doesn't work that way.

When Rafa came most of the transfer budget was spent on Cisse and he had no say and Owen was gone since letting him walk for free was no option and rafa needed some cash or Alonso would not have come.


So the team was

Dudek
Finnan Henchoz Hyppia Riise
Smicer Hamann Gerrard Kewell
Cisse Baros

An aging backline that had not been improved with young good players for years. And a rather old midfield also with
hamann, Smicer both at 30+ and kewell has had a non existant Liverpool career almost.

That was about it with Pongolle as a sub and a Carra that was being used everywhere besides at centre back by Houllier.
And please don't tell me you are serious when you say Biscan was really good and a player for the club.

And he had around 15 million to spend to improve on an abysmal campaign that saw Gerrard more or less himelf put us into 4th place with some 40 odd points behind the top.


It is not like those 114 million has been available to Rafa
since the day he 1st came. 
So he bought Alonso and Garcia, both pretty vital that season.
In the league it was more of the same and at times during the season we had mellor and pongolle as our starting strikers because of our problem in depth.
Every other rubbish Houllier bought like Diouf, Diao, Cheyrou and so on was just a total waste of money heloing the club none what so ever. A total of 3.5 million recouped from 20 million spent.

So Rafa performed the miracle at getting Traore Cl medal.
And yes, RAFA made him get it. Don't start with the "but Traore and the team with Biscan and the guys won, so they must be good".
The league which consists of 3 times more games is the true measure of how well and consistant a team can perform.

So next summer even after the CL is won, with all that money that comes with it, he want Eto'o and Alves cause we needed to replace Smicer who left for free(once again wonderful by Houllier to let players run down contracts and not sell in time) and Baros and Cisse were just not ever gong to be good enough. And since Houllier once again let Dudek run down his contract and not get a single penny for him either he needed someting the club had lacked for a very long time, a top class goalie. And he had to be cheap. And also Biscan had to be replaced as the only centre mids we had was Gerrard, Hamman and Alonso and hamann was getting on.
Besides 3 cm is not enough and Gerrard was the only alternative on the right at the time.
He also had to get a left midfielder since kewell was never available to be picked.
And then Hyppia was getting on also and Rafa has to think about the future with only Carra left.

So he had to fill 6 positions with around 25 million
And the need to be able to play in the starting lineup or at least be good enough when called upon.

So he gets

Jose Reina Villarreal £ 6000000

Mark Gonzalez Albacete £ 1500000 

Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £ 5600000

Peter Crouch Southampton £ 7000000

Daniel Agger Brondby £ 5800000


Everyone of them neccessary and not many of them his 1st choices besides maybe Reina. 26 million spent.
What could he had done better?
There was no more money that summer and we desperatly need them since Owen, Kewell, Smicer, Dudek was not ever there for rafa to build on. All of them besides Kewell was left with a year on their contracts when Rafa arrived and kewell I have mentioned. And Rafa had to start thinking about the future with regard to Hamman and Hyppia. And besides
we had too little depth in those important positions.

So why not do like you had wanted let us just spend on 1 or 2 top class players.
Who out of those should we had sacrificed??

reina? Hmm....
Gonzales was so cheap so he would had made a difference
And we had to get him with no LW available.
Sissoko? Well, he and Alonso did ok that season and Gerrard
had to play out wide since we had noone else. Having only
Hamann and Alonso for an entire season is not an option!
Crouch?  Well, after the displays Baros made before he left and has made since he left I can understand why Rafa thought it neccessary to do something.
And Cisse was just an extrmely unintelligent footballer who wasn't helped by a horrendus leg break.
There might be a case to argue about Pongolle but Rafa saw something he obviously didn't like.
And Agger was player we needed with Hyppia and Carra as the only centrebacks.

So we were making strides but since almost everyone were stopgap players and not top quality, cause Rafa wasn't allowed to get that, only Reina and Agger remains.

This has been the procedure for the past years as
Sissoko has become mascherano, Crouch has become Torres and so on.
The problem is to some degree that before Houllier left he went out and spent 50 million in his 2 last years, getting almost noone who actually was starting material.
This meant the club was being more careful and Rafa
had to create a whole new squad for the future.

You say that is not so, but you are dead wrong

Let us look at the team again

Dudek 1 year left on contract and not good enough
Finnan While good 28 years is still a bit when thinking of the future
Henchoz Not good enough anymore and worth 0 which is what he left for.
Hyppia No matter how good servant he has been he was still
over 30 when Rafa arrived. That is no player to build you squad around
Riise While a good player he lacked in certain areas and never top class
Smicer 1 year left on contract and not good enough
Hamann See Hyppia
Gerrard Well, finally a player under 30 who actually is for the future
Kewell A more injury prone player is hard to find. Not ever to be counte dupon no matter how many chances Rafa gave him.
Cisse Mr run and shot straight at goalie as hard as you can.
Repeat ad nauseum.
Baros Down with you head and run like a headless chicken.
Loved your success at Villa, Lyon and Portsmouth.

And no, Biscan and those are never good enough!
Carra became good when Rafa placed him at centre.


The point is that the 114 million is to be spread out in 4 years.
And as I explained after the 1st season Rafa was here he had
to act like he did since there were many holes to fill!
 
Not only wasn't the 1st team good enough, the squad between players 12-25 were abysmal.

[LFC2007]

I agree with much of that ^, but in one, maybe two instances I think Rafa could've opted for sorting one position out rather than spreading the funds, e.g. Babel, Benayoun, Leiva. I think the funds from two of these three players could've been used to sort one of the wide areas out once and for all.

[66-1112520797]

Rafa is in a different stratosphere to Houllier as a manager, as a buyer of players, as a tactician and as a goatee grower

Sorry Mick, this LFC2007 nitpicking thing and tearing your posts up and scrolling through them with a fine toothcomb has got to me.

There you've just stated and have for a while (I think) that Rafa buys good players. Yet over in the 'Quaresma' thread you've said something about him not buying the best players, and that they've been largely average.

Here is that quote.

I don't think Rafa is reluctant to sign or trust flair players. I do though think sometimes he simply doesn't buy the right ones.

Answers on a postcard ?

[bigmick]

To understand where I'm coming from BM you need to realise that I couldn't abide Houllier and his nonsense. All this "special training" that he'd apparently done with Heskey a couple of days before he scored all those goals at Leeds, trying to make out he was some kind of guru when he was anything but IMHO. Compared to him, Rafa is a brilliant manager IMHO.

Now, I do think that in the main Rafa's bought some good players whose transfer value has escalated. I also think he has bought some rubbish, and all managers do that to some extent. I don't think he's anti flair players, or doesn't trust them, I just don't think he's bought the right ones (players like Benayoun for instance who is a distance away from being good enough IMHO).

His biggest errot though like I've said many times is in buying too many "options" and "possibilities" players, not one of which has come to anything that I can think of.

To summarise, I think in the transfer market he is far better than Houllier. I do though think if you compare him to say Wenger, not just in the transfer market but as a manager in general, I think he is significantly second best. I know I'll upset many people by saying that, but I truly believe it. For me the Frenchman and coughFeghskjfuhfngjh, sorry? coughFerguuifjnm are both comfortably ahead of our man as managers.

No doubt the last couple of sentences will stir up a bit of angst, but should anyone need reasoning then I'll be hapopy to oblige.

[66-1112520797]

Que the thought police.

[Penguins]

To understand where I'm coming from BM you need to realise that I couldn't abide Houllier and his nonsense. All this "special training" that he'd apparently done with Heskey a couple of days before he scored all those goals at Leeds, trying to make out he was some kind of guru when he was anything but IMHO. Compared to him, Rafa is a brilliant manager IMHO.

Now, I do think that in the main Rafa's bought some good players whose transfer value has escalated. I also think he has bought some rubbish, and all managers do that to some extent. I don't think he's anti flair players, or doesn't trust them, I just don't think he's bought the right ones (players like Benayoun for instance who is a distance away from being good enough IMHO).

His biggest errot though like I've said many times is in buying too many "options" and "possibilities" players, not one of which has come to anything that I can think of.

To summarise, I think in the transfer market he is far better than Houllier. I do though think if you compare him to say Wenger, not just in the transfer market but as a manager in general, I think he is significantly second best. I know I'll upset many people by saying that, but I truly believe it. For me the Frenchman and coughFeghskjfuhfngjh, sorry? coughFerguuifjnm are both comfortably ahead of our man as managers.

No doubt the last couple of sentences will stir up a bit of angst, but should anyone need reasoning then I'll be hapopy to oblige.

Well, that one of my issies with Rafa.
it isn't that he is anti flair players but they must be grafters, aggressive and hard working. If those criteria isn't fulfilled
it doesn't matter how much skill, idividuality and flair a player has, he will not interest Rafa.
That why I cringe at the thought of having Kuyt as a starter.
Next season. He stand for everything I dislike about him.
He is extremely limited skillwise, has pisspoor creativity, no 1st touch. Very often scores when you wonder if he really meant just exactly  to do what he did.
And no matter how poor he produces since he works hard, which he does, Rafa will find a spot in the lineup no matter if it as right back and never mind if you really are a striker.

Me myself actually preach caution and believe that too much flair will ruin the team unless the team works and i defensivly aware. But Rafa just takes this to the extreme making too many decisions like it were a game of chess and tries to leave nothing at chance, therefore never takes an offensive gamble ever. Which is not good for our draw column.
Putting out Kuyt vs Reading, Wifan, Birmingham etc at home just so the favourite can play just makes me ask wtf he is doing.

And when the score end 1-1 or 0-0 the frustration grows.
I mean Kuyt was terrible in the 1st half of last season.
Played and started non stop and in his prefered role and didn't do a thing for over 20 league games.
And still Rafa goes back to Kuyt no matter how many games it was since he last got a goal.
For whatever the reason, when Rafa sees this week after week, why do nothing?
Just as an example Crouch offer 100% more goalthreat and vs
bottom teams and who cares if we will have one less body behind the ball. It is WIGAN FFS!
But that's rafa for ya and his damn risk minimalizing.

I'm not overyly concerned about rotation though as

1. Once a player is deemed irreplacable by Rafa he will play
practially every game he's available(see gerrard, Torres and .... Kuyt). Unless maybe Rafa's job is on the line
Just that we don't have that many players of that status yet.

2. Slur Alex and Hourino switched players just as much as rafa did last season if not more. It's just that their 2nd options are better.



And sure we could for example have spent on one player instead of babel, Benayoun and Leiva but:

1. Our squad is actually rather thin at the moment and without Lucas Alonso could never be sold to help fund players.
If no Babel then our attacking options would be severly limited
in Kuyt(hmm), Pennant, Voronin as our only attacking players
besides Torres. Same goes for Benayoun.

2. I actually think we did well in those 2 instances.
Lucas was voted player of the year in the brazlian league at 21! And is already playing in the Brazilian natinal team.
A bargain at 6 with several clubs interested in him at the time.
If for some reason it didn't work out we would have  many suitors.
Babel att 11,5 may sound much, but Wenger wanted him and he came out of Ajax who has produced their share of players over the years....
He still is a bit predictable but he has nice skills and a booming shoot.
Benayoun was a find at 5 million. A nifty little player with good vision. The kind of squad player we need as he can both start or, when Rafa realizes Kuyt won't score that day either,
be used as a creative spark coming on as a sub.


With Crouch, kewell and leto gone with no replacements so far I am actually glad Rafa bought those 3.

Even if we have some talented players in the reserves
I am a bit guarded about throwing Pacheco, Nemeth and all the other youngsters into the fire just yet.

I really do hope the damn yanks don't continue with this "treating it like a franchise" where they just take out the CL money as profit while taking loans to buy players.
Can't wait when December comes and the stadium money is gone and in June when they need to renegotiate the loan on the club probably rising the debt to 450 million instead of 350.
And that's not counting the stadium....

[bigmick]

I think you need to spend a bit more time on your posts mate. All these one liners, smileys and undeveloped points of view are no good to anybody  .

[Penguins]

I think you need to spend a bit more time on your posts mate. All these one liners, smileys and undeveloped points of view are no good to anybody  .

Ok, ok.

But it isn't that unreadable, is it?

Sure, I write it as fast as I can with no spell check or no check at all for that matter.
But I thought the content is what matters.

[Judge]

i don't want to sell it, just want to know if it's original or if anyone has ever seen something similar

don't know and don't care....

not surprising, he likes only fat birds 

[LFC2007]

Que the thought police.

Que the sera

[account deleted by request]

The back line was Finnan 28, Carra 26, Henchoz 29, Riise 24, Hyypia 30 and Traore 24....... hardly ancient and certainly not aged.

He brought in Josemi 25, Morientes 29 and Pelligrino 34 so I don't think he was too worried about the age of the players. He's now after 2 players in their late twenties (Barry and Keane) so I don't think age had much to do with it.

Carra was already playing at CB BEFORE RAFA CAME. Game Date :: 15.05.2004 (Houlliers last game)
Competition :: Premier League  Stadium :: Anfield
Spectators :: 44,172 
Starting line-up
1  Jerzy Dudek 
4  Sami Hyypia 
18  John Arne Riise 
23  Jamie Carragher 
3  Steve Finnan 
13  Danny Murphy 
16  Dietmar Hamann 
17  Steven Gerrard 
7  Harry Kewell 
8  Emile Heskey 
10  Michael Owen

So it was hardly an inspirational Rafa decision

Dudek only left in 2007!

If the team was so bad and it was only Rafa's genius that got Traore a CL medal, how come with the 50 fantastic players Rafa has signed since he hasn't managed to win it again? Surely if he could win it with a team of cr@p, and it was all down to his genius he could win it with a team that he has filled all the gaps and vastly improved?


Sissoko was hardly a "planned" buy, we only went for him when we realised he was available after Everton looked like signing him. We already had Gerrard, Hamann, Alonso, and Zenden, so then we bought Sissoko and loaned Mascherano with the option to buy and we had "the best midfield in the world ", so does he now buy us the top quality winger we have waited patiently for for years?

No, he buys Lucas another midfielder, Benayoun (no better than the misfiring Pennant) Leto who was hardly a bargain even at £1.8million and Babel a striker that can play on the wing. £24million that would have bought either a pretty decent winger or the creative second striker that we have been crying out for for years(or both!) but not to worry we also got Voronin.


He has bought Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt , Torres,and Voronin, with the exception of Torres none of them were any more successful than the players he was left - Cisse, Owen,Pongole and Baros

Kewell had no history of injuries until after Rafa came (he played 36 league games in Houlliers last season). His injury (sustained 6 months after Rafa took over, was supposedly badly diagnosed and treated....... hardly Kewell or Houllier's fault?

But its the period since 2006 that is my biggest problem with Rafa's signings (Once he had so called "filled the gaps" with Garcia , Alonso, Reina, Agger, Sissoko, Crouch and another 18 players)

We come to the disasterous (imo)2006 transfer window(his only real nightmare window to be fair) and onwards. Certainly in my view we stood still or even took a large backward step in 2006/7 which we are still trying to recover from, while we missed out on Alves, Diego, Aguero and Berbatov.

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006
Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006
Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000 18.08.2006
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000 21.08.2006
Astrit  Ajdarevic Falkenberg £750,000* 11.01.2007
Daniele Padelli Sampdoria On Loan* 12.01.2007
Jordy Brouwer Ajax Undisclosed* 24.01.2007
Francisco Durán  Malaga £66,000* 30.01.2007
Ronald Huth Tacuary FC Undisclosed 31.01.2007
Álvaro Arbeloa Deportivo £2,500,000 31.01.2007
Lucas Leiva Gremio £5,000,000 11.05.2007
Mikel San José Domínguez Athletic Bilbao £270,000 28.06.2007
Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007
Fernando Torres Atletico Madrid £20,200,000 04.07.2007 
Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007
Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000 12.07.2007
Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000 13.07.2007
Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007
Emiliano Insúa Boca Juniors £1,300,000* 26.08.2007
Martin Skrtel Zenit St Petersburg  £6,500,000 11.01.2008 
Javier Mascherano Media Sports Investment £17,000,000 29.02.2008


The ones highlighted have improved the team...... 2 out of 24 players. So of the £96million, £37million has improved the team while £60million has gone on cover players, squad fillers, prospects and players who were no better than the players they replaced.

I have ignored the further £12million spent already this season on 4 more players. While Skrtel was a necessary buy as Agger was injured, Arbeloa wasn't up to the job at CB and Hobbs and San Jose were obviously not ready.

Also remembering that a lot of these players will also have add on's to their transfer fee's related to appearances and sell on clauses etc etc. ie We could eventually end up paying another £3million for Lucas, another £7million for Torres, I presume we have already paid another £4million for Alonso and I believe we also have to pay a % of his transfer fee to Sociadad (according to our Spanish correspondent anyway)