Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:26 pm

Or, Saint, put another way how many signings since 2004/5 are better than Carragher and/or Gerrard? We've spent a lot of money yet those two are still key players, Rafa has been too keen to spend £5m-£7m on players and not often enough hit the £15m barrier which brings in Torres' and Mascheranos. I fear, as with Houllier towards the end, that Rafa is preparing too many seasons into the future when his own may not have that long. Signing Ngog, Mendy and the other kids is not gearing up towards a title challenge. Whether Dossena, Degen, Diego, GB and Robbie Keane will make that title challenge a reality or a dream remains to be seen. I'm guessing fergie's assault on the Chelsea's pensioners really indicates who he is most worried about

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:33 pm

s@int wrote:The back line was Finnan 28, Carra 26, Henchoz 29, Riise 24, Hyypia 30 and Traore 24....... hardly ancient and certainly not aged.

He brought in Josemi 25, Morientes 29 and Pelligrino 34 so I don't think he was too worried about the age of the players. He's now after 2 players in their late twenties (Barry and Keane) so I don't think age had much to do with it.

Carra was already playing at CB BEFORE RAFA CAME. Game Date :: 15.05.2004 (Houlliers last game)
Competition :: Premier League Stadium :: Anfield
Spectators :: 44,172
Starting line-up
1 Jerzy Dudek
4 Sami Hyypia
18 John Arne Riise
23 Jamie Carragher
3 Steve Finnan
13 Danny Murphy
16 Dietmar Hamann
17 Steven Gerrard
7 Harry Kewell
8 Emile Heskey
10 Michael Owen

So it was hardly an inspirational Rafa decision

Dudek only left in 2007!

If the team was so bad and it was only Rafa's genius that got Traore a CL medal, how come with the 50 fantastic players Rafa has signed since he hasn't managed to win it again? Surely if he could win it with a team of cr@p, and it was all down to his genius he could win it with a team that he has filled all the gaps and vastly improved?

Sissoko was hardly a "planned" buy, we only went for him when we realised he was available after Everton looked like signing him. We already had Gerrard, Hamann, Alonso, and Zenden, so then we bought Sissoko and loaned Mascherano with the option to buy and we had "the best midfield in the world ", so does he now buy us the top quality winger we have waited patiently for for years?

No, he buys Lucas another midfielder, Benayoun (no better than the misfiring Pennant) Leto who was hardly a bargain even at £1.8million and Babel a striker that can play on the wing. £24million that would have bought either a pretty decent winger or the creative second striker that we have been crying out for for years(or both!) but not to worry we also got Voronin.

He has bought Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt , Torres,and Voronin, with the exception of Torres none of them were any more successful than the players he was left - Cisse, Owen,Pongolle and Baros
Kewell had no history of injuries until after Rafa came (he played 36 league games in Houlliers last season). His injury (sustained 6 months after Rafa took over, was supposedly badly diagnosed and treated....... hardly Kewell or Houllier's fault?

But its the period since 2006 that is my biggest problem with Rafa's signings (Once he had so called "filled the gaps" with Garcia , Alonso, Reina, Agger, Sissoko, Crouch and another 18 players)

We come to the disasterous (imo)2006 transfer window(his only real nightmare window to be fair) and onwards. Certainly in my view we stood still or even took a large backward step in 2006/7 which we are still trying to recover from, while we missed out on Alves, Diego, Aguero and Berbatov.

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006
Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006
Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006
Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006
Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000 18.08.2006
Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000 21.08.2006
Astrit Ajdarevic Falkenberg £750,000* 11.01.2007
Daniele Padelli Sampdoria On Loan* 12.01.2007
Jordy Brouwer Ajax Undisclosed* 24.01.2007
Francisco Durán Malaga £66,000* 30.01.2007
Ronald Huth Tacuary FC Undisclosed 31.01.2007
Álvaro Arbeloa Deportivo £2,500,000 31.01.2007
Lucas Leiva Gremio £5,000,000 11.05.2007
Mikel San José Domínguez Athletic Bilbao £270,000 28.06.2007
Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007
Fernando Torres Atletico Madrid £20,200,000 04.07.2007
Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007
Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000 12.07.2007
Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000 13.07.2007
Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007
Emiliano Insúa Boca Juniors £1,300,000* 26.08.2007
Martin Skrtel Zenit St Petersburg £6,500,000 11.01.2008
Javier Mascherano Media Sports Investment £17,000,000 29.02.2008

The ones highlighted have improved the team...... 2 out of 24 players. So of the £96million, £37million has improved the team while £60million has gone on cover players, squad fillers, prospects and players who were no better than the players they replaced.

I have ignored the further £12million spent already this season on 4 more players. While Skrtel was a necessary buy as Agger was injured, Arbeloa wasn't up to the job at CB and Hobbs and San Jose were obviously not ready.

Also remembering that a lot of these players will also have add on's to their transfer fee's related to appearances and sell on clauses etc etc. ie We could eventually end up paying another £3million for Lucas, another £7million for Torres, I presume we have already paid another £4million for Alonso and I believe we also have to pay a % of his transfer fee to Sociadad (according to our Spanish correspondent anyway)

Well, the backline was extremly thin and Traore and Henchoz was never good enough but Traore had to play because of lack of options and depth.

Well, if you look at it from Rafa's perspective when he came.
Did you really expect him to challenge with that squad right away after finishing almost 40 pts behind the leaders and losing our top goalscorer?
Which means Rafa has to look at least 2-3 years ahead for starters.

Hyppia, Finnan over 30 and on the way down then hard to really expect them to be around when we will challenge.
Was Riise ever title material? I'd say no.
That leaves Carra, who was terribly missused by Houllier. He may have been used to some degree at cb in his last season
but he still played more games at rb and lb not to mention previous seasons. He was more used as a backup player for either Finnan, Hyppia, Riise or whoever was injured than being given time to make a position his own.
Just because Carra played 50 out of his 300 league games
at cb and 200 at rb, doesn't make much of an argument that
Houllier gave him the chance to solidify the cb position...
It was Rafa who gave him the free reigns to make the CB place his own and believed in him.
Houillier flogged him around in the team for what was suitable for a specific game. Hardly a confidence builder for Carra.
Ok, Dudek may have left 07 but we were still desperate for a real goalie and not one making gaffers every 10th game.

Josemi was just a needed stop gap and was sold at no loss a year later. Pellegrino was free so there was no risks or future loss to take into consideration.
Morientes has been one of Rafas few less successful buys but I actually think he has learnt from that. We did need a striker desperatly with Owen gone and we had around 7 million spend.
Many believed including myself at the time that it was a shrewd buy. A proven scorer with much pedigree and a good price. We need one then at a low price and he was available.
There was no option to be fussy since Mellor, Baros and Pongolle was what we had a the club.

About the CL plase read what I wrote before.
A lot of specific details come into play when participating in a cup competition. Not neccessarily the best team on paper wins, like in the league, since other intangiables comes into play.
It is one game or bust which means managers can dissect teams better, preparing their own teams. Then in cup games
the unexpected happens more often. How many league games
have we had like the Olympiacos game?
Or the istanbul final or the FA cup final vs West Ham?
Smicer scores his 1st goal in 8 months as a sub in a CL final.
I think the team which lost the final 07 and the semi 08 were much better. But for a decision to play Kuyt and some poor luck in 07 and and own goal in the 94th minute in 08 ended those dreams.
How many on these forum will not agree to this fact:

In the 07 final we totally outplayed Milan and they got a megaflukey goal in the last min of the 1st half.
True or false?

In the 05 final Milan :censored:

all over us in the game and we were were lucky to reach penalties.
True or false?

What matters is that we needed Sissoko at the time and the price was very good.
You go on and say we had Gerrard, Alonso, Hamann and Zenden. Please...
We had Gerrard on the right as our only right midfielder.
And Zenden as a cm? I always saw him as a lw, which is what he mostly played and no matter where he played he was never gonna cut it!
So it was more like Alonso and Hamann as our only two cm who was available and good enough. Since Zenden wasn't an an option and Sissoko was just exchanged for Masch it didn't changed to number of cm at the required quality

Well, I am not going to agrue about Rafa's fear of wide players
It is well documented and my only conclusion is that

1. Wingers are plus players meaning they are the least defensivly aware players on the field(besides strikers)
therefore Rafa stays away.

2. Wingers and skilled players(goes hand in hand really) cost usually the most which means they are costly and a type of player Rafa avoids.

Well, Lucas was a players who was voted player of the year in Brazil and if you look down the list of previous winners I feel
Rafa felt hard pressed not to buy at a bargain price of 5 million. Which is was. Once again one for the future which Rafa likes. With Garcia gone and Gerrard playing cm again
having just Pennant as right midfielder was too little so Benayoun was needed.(who would had known rafa's defensive striker actually could act as a right midfielder then?)
With Zenden gone and Kewell being useless we had no LW.
Enter Babel. And Leto was just another promising perospect and nothing else. Once again a youth buy which Rafa like to do. To build for a future where we have less money.

Rafa is all about riskminimizing. Spending all money on one winger(say silva, Simao) would leave us very shot on the wings with just 1 on each side available. Any injury and we would be screwed. And losing out on a potentially top class player in the future in Lucas.
Instead we got depth in case injuries hit us.

About Barry and Keane. Even though Rafa thinks about the future he knows the team last season fell short and are not good enough. He needs more players that have done it in the league and has experience and the right mentality.
That is mostly why I believe rafa want to sell alonso to fund a barry deal.
Because Barry just has been performing better in the league then Alonso.

Call them safe buys meaning you know what you get when you pay.

Rafa will continue to buy young promising players since the current regime can not support a system where we buy the finished article meaning 20 million for each new player.
Not only that buying 20 young prospects for 20 million
means there is a huge chance those players can be sold for a huge or small profit. Like what happened with carson.
Those sales can help fund the players he wants. And hopefully a few of those players he bought will be good enough to play for us.

What is the common denominator with those buys except the one that succeeded??
Not a single one of them cost 10 million+.
That will never get you a top class striker.
And no, the old board did not allow Rafa to spend more on a striker. So while those players might not had been of the required quality he did reasonably well considering what they cost. They cost 28,7 million(and once again that was not something he could had spent in one season!) and has recouped 21,5 million with still Kuyt being here.
So he has just about gone even up financially on his striker buys. And if you count Torres he is on a huge plus!

Not saying those 4 (Cisse, Owen,Pongolle and Baros) were much worse but that was the fiancial lanscape Rafa had to work with.

So now blame Rafa for Kewell being a vegetable. The same Rafa who let him start in every final we have been to and given him umptenth chances no matter how little he produced? No saying it was Houillier's fault with kewell or kewell himself. But neither was it rafa's fault.
Only just stating the fact that Kewell was never a sustainable and reliable option for Rafa during Kewell's time at the club.
Which meant Rafa had to act as if no LW was available.

Yes, we missed out on Alves, Diego, Aguero and Berbatov like Simao. But blame the board for that and not Rafa. When there is no money there is no money.

Bellamy. With Crouch the only striker left we had to get a new striker. You think Bellamy was 1st choice?
Once again not enough money.
Paletta- Well, these are the kinds of buys you have to make sometimes. We will not be able to afford spending 15 million on each place in the team so some players must come from the reserves and youth. If one of these players turn out well we would save millions.
Aurelio A very good aqusition
Pennant Same scenario as Bellamy. Alves wanted by Rafa and the board would not sanction a deal for 12 million. 2 years later he moves to Barca for 25 million.
Kuyt is a player I want to dicuss as little as possible.
Getting him instead of Berbatov says everything about Rafa and what he likes most in a player.
Skrtel was an excellent buy as Agger, who is injury prone was out only cb under 30.
Masch A find at 17 million

The rest are, like I have said many times now, buys that could save us time and money in the future.
If one of them becomes really good we would make a huge profit and save a lot of money.

So you only count Torres and Masch and the rest as garbage?
Who should had played if we had not bought Bellamy, Pennant, Kuyt, Skrtel, Aurelio, Arbeloa, Benayoun, Babel etc?
We can't afford to improve more than 1 place each year to the top class standard you so covet. In between we must have squad players to make a team you know?

All those players were bought with a purpose both for the present and the future. Many was bought out of necessity
as you can not have 11 players that are starting material and then 11 reserve team players.

by **Number 9** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:42 pm

Good post Penguins lad! Some very good points,im not sure about the wingers bit though!

Unfortunately you are shouting on deaf ears mate.There are many on here now who just want Rafa out and only success this season will change their minds it seems.We definately have a huge campaign ahead of us and i cant wait for it to start.
Then no one (hopefully) will be comapring Houllier to Rafa and we can talk about the present again.

Good post as i said but i doubt your efforts will change anyones opinions,its been tried before,the LFC faithfull are split 50/50 by a deep canyon on the manager it seems!

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:54 pm

Thanks.

Well, I am not one of those lemmings that will worship the rafatollah as I see some error in his teachings

But for all that they are still minor compared to the last 4 managers we have had.

The thing is we can all agree on:

1. We will never have money like manure and Chelski and more like Spurs and Newcastle.
2. We all want what is best for the club, both present and future(I hope).
3. We know any lefc manager must make something special
out of the players to make them perform better than our rivals who are better on paper.

And I ask myself this. In todays football climate and our great ownership is there anyone I believe can do a better job than Rafa both for the present and future of the club.

My answer is a big no.
Our only chance as it is is to build a team for the future
with many talented players coming through the reserves
and with their pride and love for the club will get us to the top.
We will never be able to do a utd or Chelski and buy a team of top stars.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:04 pm

That's a cracking post (the really big one) Penguins, it puts Rafa's decisions in a bit more context.

The signing of Bellamy I didn't have a problem with, Cisse had broken his leg and never really had a future at the club, his attitude was questionable and he was a poor footballer. Bellamy was a better player than Cisse anyway, and came relatively cheap given the season he had at Blackburn. Pennant we needed as we didn't have a proper RW, perhaps we could've got better but for £6.5m or whatever it was, it was never going to be easy. Kuyt was the biggest gamble of that summer given the fee, he did well first season, but for the first half of his second season (albeit after a bright start) was abysmal. Fair enough Rafa didn't get that one right ultimately, but he's still a valuable squad player.

It was really last summer, I feel, that we missed out on the opportunity to nail a position. We probably could've used the money we spent on Babel, Benayoun and/or Lucas, more effectively i.e. to sign a proper LW or RW, though it's easier with hindsight as Babel was an unknown quantity at the time. It's really the fact that I don't see where Babel figures in our long-term future that leads me to that viewpoint.

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:39 pm

Well, it seems with half of Italy after Lucas at the time(they still are I guess) Rafa must have really held him in high regard.

Rafa had been a long time admirer in Benayoun since his playing days in Spain and a very good bargain at 5 million.

Babel I tend to agree was a bit of a gamble(especially concerning Rafa) But he had already broken into the national team at and age of 19 and was kept in high regard both by Ajax and by Wenger. He is still young but we sure need him to make a step up this season as it looks right now.

He is a bit to predictable cutting inside shooting with his right as he can't go on the outside and use his left foot.
He also is no real winger, but I think actually he learned alot in his 1st year and he can be slippery as an eel like vs Arsenal in the CL. Turned inside out the defenders and got us the penalty. That and glimpses during the season saw that he has potential.
At 11.5 you do want a bit more than potential though, but it is at least a couple of years too soon to give up on him.

And with Kewell, Crouch, Leto gone and no new replacements in I am actually glad now Rafa opted for more depth at the time. Our 1st team squad right now isn't really huge and
I don't want us to rush Pacheco, Nemeth and the reserve team players into the 1st team. They should go and experience 1st team football at a club.
Spending a year on the bench here does neither them nor the club any good.

by **FANTÔMAS** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:46 pm

While I believe that Benítez deserves more time at this moment and certainly more respect from the media at the same time, we must remain honest with ourselves. The unwavering, unquestioning loyalty that Benítez receives from the Anfield faithful is not by any means desireable. We have used the ownership situation as a justification for the way we played last season. It seems that criticism aimed at the manager are dismissed simply because of the way Hicks, Gillet and Parry have handled the backroom situation.

How much time do we give the manager to prove his ability?

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:07 pm

The problem is what do we do if we find out there is like 10 million to spend each year and that is it?
Do we still say

1. It doesn't matter. Then Gordon Strachan will get us the title
with no money either.

or.

2. I guess we have to see through these hard time with ownership and stadium and wait for the reserve team players to become old enough.

Besides what will happen after Rafa gets the sack and he says in the pressconference:

"I asked for a table and Liverpool could afford a lampshade."

How much do you think Torres, Masch, Gerrard want to commit the future to the club when a new contract talk comes up with harry Redknapp at the helm and with the knowledge than there will hardly be any reinforcements?

Not bloody likely I'd say.
So even if they can't just leave right away you can sure bet Liverpool will be forced to sell once their contract nears the end.

And I don't see how our ownership situation is gong to be much better with:

1. Stadium money needed badly to actually start building the damn thing. The papers will love it.

2. it is clear that not much money will be available to Rafa unless he sells.

3. The loans has to be refinanced next summer.

This will make the press have a field day at our expense during the whole season.
And that is not taking into account Hicks going out doing a "Hicks"= talk garbage and infuriate everyone.

by **FANTÔMAS** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:16 pm

So what do you propose? We continue on with Benítez? We have done that in the past with former managers, and while Benítez is an overt class improvement over Houllier, what if the Champions League and the FA Cup is all that he ever will be capable of, ownership situation or not? How long before we give up and move on?

by **bigmick** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:32 pm

Might be best if you say what you propose mate, put your views out there and let people go from there. Welcome to the forum BTW. You didn't used to be a javelin thrower with a moustache did you

by **FANTÔMAS** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:28 am

Well, to be quite honest. At this moment and time, I don't think that Benítez is the one to take us to the first League title in nineteen years. I don't deny that he is a good manager, the fact that Valencia has struggled to replace him since he's left proves how much of an effect he had; at the same time I don't think his style fits within the Premiership.

I find him to be a rather frustrating figure a lot of the time. His lack of charisma, his questionable selection for big games and his tactical choices have made me question his managment skill of our club. I don't deny the effect that the ownership bickering had on last year, but I wouldn't readily justify our poor form throughout the most important parts of the season to be the doing of the owners.

I think if he doesn't deliver next season, than sitting down and deliberating whether the owners should keep him around is necessary. We don't need another Houllier that created the exodus of some of the most talented players we had in that time.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:39 am

Good post mate and I'm sure it'll get a bit of a response. For my part, I'm more than willing to give him another season or two provided he shelves the mass rotation.

by **Rush Job** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:17 am

FANTÔMAS wrote:Well, to be quite honest. At this moment and time, I don't think that Benítez is the one to take us to the first League title in nineteen years. I don't deny that he is a good manager, the fact that Valencia has struggled to replace him since he's left proves how much of an effect he had; at the same time I don't think his style fits within the Premiership.

I find him to be a rather frustrating figure a lot of the time. His lack of charisma, his questionable selection for big games and his tactical choices have made me question his managment skill of our club. I don't deny the effect that the ownership bickering had on last year, but I wouldn't readily justify our poor form throughout the most important parts of the season to be the doing of the owners.

I think if he doesn't deliver next season, than sitting down and deliberating whether the owners should keep him around is necessary. We don't need another Houllier that created the exodus of some of the most talented players we had in that time.

He's only got a year left anyway, IMO he is fully aware this is his last chance to get us challenging in the prem.

by **Kharhaz** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:39 am

Rush Job wrote:
FANTÔMAS wrote:Well, to be quite honest. At this moment and time, I don't think that Benítez is the one to take us to the first League title in nineteen years. I don't deny that he is a good manager, the fact that Valencia has struggled to replace him since he's left proves how much of an effect he had; at the same time I don't think his style fits within the Premiership.

I find him to be a rather frustrating figure a lot of the time. His lack of charisma, his questionable selection for big games and his tactical choices have made me question his managment skill of our club. I don't deny the effect that the ownership bickering had on last year, but I wouldn't readily justify our poor form throughout the most important parts of the season to be the doing of the owners.

I think if he doesn't deliver next season, than sitting down and deliberating whether the owners should keep him around is necessary. We don't need another Houllier that created the exodus of some of the most talented players we had in that time.

He's only got a year left anyway, IMO he is fully aware this is his last chance to get us challenging in the prem.

Im pretty certain that rafa feels he has to challenge this season. Rafa loves it at LFC and it would be horrible for him to leave the club, he will never achieve the heights he has already at our club at any other club, and you can include the spanish clubs in that. He has said himself the premiership is the most difficult one to win so I myself take it that although he did win the spanish league the premiership is beyond the spanish league. And rafa is stubborn of course but can accept the simple truth. Looking at the first team players he has shown interest in, without a doubt, and agreeing with bigmick, rotation will not be a problem this coming season. Rafa also knows, he has to challenge for the league, i'll let other people worry about the lack of big name signings, i'll just look forward to seeing rafas take on the coming season in the first few games to see what his attitude is on this season. The most annoying part of last season for me was watching our team on a good unbeaten run then rafa tinkering when it came to reading and from then on our season started to fall apart. We have the players to get a good start, we need the manager to keep it going.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:05 am

Well, the backline was extremly thin and Traore and Henchoz was never good enough but Traore had to play because of lack of options and depth.

Well, if you look at it from Rafa's perspective when he came.
Did you really expect him to challenge with that squad right away after finishing almost 40 pts behind the leaders and losing our top goalscorer?
Which means Rafa has to look at least 2-3 years ahead for starters.

Hyppia, Finnan over 30 and on the way down then hard to really expect them to be around when we will challenge.
Was Riise ever title material? I'd say no.
That leaves Carra, who was terribly missused by Houllier. He may have been used to some degree at cb in his last season
but he still played more games at rb and lb not to mention previous seasons. He was more used as a backup player for either Finnan, Hyppia, Riise or whoever was injured than being given time to make a position his own.
Just because Carra played 50 out of his 300 league games
at cb and 200 at rb, doesn't make much of an argument that
Houllier gave him the chance to solidify the cb position...
It was Rafa who gave him the free reigns to make the CB place his own and believed in him.
Houillier flogged him around in the team for what was suitable for a specific game. Hardly a confidence builder for Carra.
Ok, Dudek may have left 07 but we were still desperate for a real goalie and not one making gaffers every 10th game.

IMO Penguins the Henchoz/Hyypia partnership at the back was one of the best in the league around that time, Henchoz was a solid CB for us. I dont think I'd of disrupted that and put Carragher in there in all honesty. At the time I think Houllier did the right thing playing Carra at LB, I wouldnt say misused. In saying that now though I'm glad Rafa has moved Carra to the central position, I think it was perfect timimg for him to move. I do remember the odd game where Houllier played Carra at CB, and TBH at that stage Carra didnt look the business there IMO and looked slightly out of his depth.

Rafa is all about riskminimizing. Spending all money on one winger(say silva, Simao) would leave us very shot on the wings with just 1 on each side available

IF this is correct, then thats a big problem for any team having title winning aspirartions of league. Plus he has the numbers in "options" and "possibilities" there now, even if they are just for cover. I'd happily have Pennant, Kuyt, Benayoun and maybe Leto as cover for players like Scwinsteiger and Silva. But the fact he has spent his money in this area quite thinly means we're left with players who are no way shape or form good enough to play week in week out in the Prem.

Good post BTW.

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