Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Tue May 27, 2008 9:28 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Well it did take fergie seven years, be patient !

The genius who took 7 years to win the league.

Funny how when success in the league hasn't come in four or so years that people harp on about fergie. Wenger didn't take seven years to win the Premiership and he has had less money than Rafa, fergie first won it on at worst an even starting point money wise.

Either way Rafa has either to outspend Chelsea and the mancs to win it or do a Wenger, he's not even looked like doing a Wenger and with all the best will in the world the clocks aren't going to turn back to when fergie first won the Premiership so will people please STFU about fergie :veryangry

Taff - I have mixed views about whether Rafa should get another chance. On the one hand who else is there, but on the other hand he's hardly looking on the cusp. I say we should tap Wenger up

by **Sabre** » Tue May 27, 2008 9:29 pm

Personally, like porn

Yeh, not bad, but I prefer the real thing

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 27, 2008 9:39 pm

Owzat wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Well it did take fergie seven years, be patient !

The genius who took 7 years to win the league.

Funny how when success in the league hasn't come in four or so years that people harp on about fergie. Wenger didn't take seven years to win the Premiership and he has had less money than Rafa, fergie first won it on at worst an even starting point money wise.

Either way Rafa has either to outspend Chelsea and the mancs to win it or do a Wenger, he's not even looked like doing a Wenger and with all the best will in the world the clocks aren't going to turn back to when fergie first won the Premiership so will people please STFU about fergie

It's not funny, just a fact. The most successful Premier League manager of all time, by a distance, took 7 seasons to win his first league title. Implied meaning by mentioning that fact? See other thread.

I've never followed (or implied) said fact with "therefore Rafa should be given 7 years to win the title".

BTW, 'twas Bamaga who initially mentioned Fergie in this thread.

The blasphemous swine.

by **taff** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:06 pm

Owzat wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Well it did take fergie seven years, be patient !

The genius who took 7 years to win the league.

Funny how when success in the league hasn't come in four or so years that people harp on about fergie. Wenger didn't take seven years to win the Premiership and he has had less money than Rafa, fergie first won it on at worst an even starting point money wise.

Either way Rafa has either to outspend Chelsea and the mancs to win it or do a Wenger, he's not even looked like doing a Wenger and with all the best will in the world the clocks aren't going to turn back to when fergie first won the Premiership so will people please STFU about fergie

Taff - I have mixed views about whether Rafa should get another chance. On the one hand who else is there, but on the other hand he's hardly looking on the cusp. I say we should tap Wenger up

I think we do get wrapped up in comparisons and they can suit your argument whatever side your on so point taken and accepted, this is a Liverpool story simple as that.

Im firmly pro Rafa but accept the fact that time is beginning to be his enemy now, even all the patience in the world will run out eventually, I think he should definitely stay with us but another season and were out in December then there will be more knives out for him. I will probably still be defending him but I know I will be looking more and more like King Kanute.

But I do think that this is a wasted thread as Rafa will come up trumps :rasp

by **bigmick** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:07 pm

Bob's point is a fair one, what is a challenge?

Now this season, we finished 11 points back. I note that some of the rose tinters are claiming that as we have improved by ten points from the previous season (in relation to the eventual winners), this represents some kind of huge progress. On the face of it there is progress, but I'm not sure it's quite as dramatic as would first appear.

Firstly, I remember at the end of the previous season when we finished 21 points behind there was much discussion about what came to be known as the "LFC" factor. This was where LFC2007 came on in defence of our abysmal showing in the league, and argued that we had taken our foot off the gas in the Premiership once it was obvious we were going to qualify for the Champions League and once we got to the latter stages of that competition. In fairness to him there was definately something in what he said, and as I remember pretty much everyone conceded the point. The only slight disagreements were as to how much difference it had actually made if we had really been "going for it" and not resting our best players in certain games (it's funny how when you rest players at the start of the season and fail to win, it's "nothing to do with rotation" but when you do it at the end of the season it's "taking your foot off the gas", but I digress :;):

). Anyway to cut a long story long, as I recall I was prepared to concede that our true deficit should have been around 13-14 points.

The second point to consider when looking at our "progress" this season is that both Man Utd and Chelsea absolutely fell out of the blocks this season. We had a nice little lead on them after four or five games, and I think that is most unlikely to happen again anytime soon.

I've already said that in my view we can't and won't win the Prem next season as we're coming from too far back. We definately can though launch a challenge, which comes back to Bob's point, what is a challenge? Well Arsenal certainly challenged this season, despite fading inside the final furlong to finish about five or six points back. I would like to see us be right up there, within no more than a couple of wins of the top of the league with four or five games to go. As a couple have said, even if we don't actually get there it's still a challenge. I'd like to have the opportunity to dream, to remembere the days when we did win the title. I'd like to be able to look out for toher teams results and it not be Everton or Portsmouth. I'd like the butterflies in the league afgain, to feel that this could be our year. The team is good enough for that, and it has been for the last two seasons.

by **Effes** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:11 pm

bigmick wrote:I'd like to have the opportunity to dream, to remembere the days when we did win the title. I'd like to be able to look out for toher teams results and it not be Everton or Portsmouth. I'd like the butterflies in the league afgain, to feel that this could be our year. The team is good enough for that, and it has been for the last two seasons.

Had to laugh at that Mick - you sound like a discontented wife.

by **bigmick** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:13 pm

Don't know who I think I am sometimes getting all lyrical. You can always tell when I'm off on one, the spelling all goes to pot

by **taff** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:18 pm

I think we all agree that come March we should be going hang on weve got a chance here, and that to me would be a challenge

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:20 pm

Firstly, I remember at the end of the previous season when we finished 21 points behind there was much discussion about what came to be known as the "LFC" factor. This was where LFC2007 came on in defence of our abysmal showing in the league, and argued that we had taken our foot off the gas in the Premiership once it was obvious we were going to qualify for the Champions League and once we got to the latter stages of that competition. In fairness to him there was definately something in what he said, and as I remember pretty much everyone conceded the point. The only slight disagreements were as to how much difference it had actually made if we had really been "going for it" and not resting our best players in certain games (it's funny how when you rest players at the start of the season and fail to win, it's "nothing to do with rotation" but when you do it at the end of the season it's "taking your foot off the gas", but I digress ). Anyway to cut a long story long, as I recall I was prepared to concede that our true deficit should have been around 13-14 points.

'LFC' factor was actually an attempt to explain what could reasonably be considered a title challenge - after people began stipulating that a finish within 6 points or so would be enough to constitute a challenge. The point being that we could conceivably be 'out of it' throughout the campaign, before a flurry of wins that pushed us within the stipulated points total, i.e. two wins or so. That was essentially the point, and 'LFC' factor as I remember it.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:03 pm

Bob's point is a fair one, what is a challenge?

Bob probably hasnt been supporting Liverpool long enough to know what a challenge is, its not really a fair point Mick.

Anyway I'm back off to Oz where the grass is definaely greener, when I get back I'm gonna have a rant about how s.hit this country has become.

by **bigmick** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:10 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Firstly, I remember at the end of the previous season when we finished 21 points behind there was much discussion about what came to be known as the "LFC" factor. This was where LFC2007 came on in defence of our abysmal showing in the league, and argued that we had taken our foot off the gas in the Premiership once it was obvious we were going to qualify for the Champions League and once we got to the latter stages of that competition. In fairness to him there was definately something in what he said, and as I remember pretty much everyone conceded the point. The only slight disagreements were as to how much difference it had actually made if we had really been "going for it" and not resting our best players in certain games (it's funny how when you rest players at the start of the season and fail to win, it's "nothing to do with rotation" but when you do it at the end of the season it's "taking your foot off the gas", but I digress ). Anyway to cut a long story long, as I recall I was prepared to concede that our true deficit should have been around 13-14 points.

'LFC' factor was actually an attempt to explain what could reasonably be considered a title challenge - after people began stipulating that a finish within 6 points or so would be enough to constitute a challenge. The point being that we could conceivably be 'out of it' throughout the campaign, before a flurry of wins that pushed us within the stipulated points total, i.e. two wins or so. That was essentially the point, and 'LFC' factor as I remember it.

Ah My apologies. I stand corrected on the origins of the "LFC" factor. That would have been the previous previous season then when we went on a sustained run at the end of the campaign. I said at the time when we finished within 9 points of the eventual Champions that we had "ran on through beaten horses". My mistake mate sorry.

The bit about the 21 points behind last season though does hold good. many people put forward the theory (correctly as it turned out) that we hadn't in fact given it our absolute all in the league once it became obvious that a) we couldn't actually win it but were going to finish in the top four, and b) we were going to have a sustained run in the Champions League. I do recall Mourinho winging before the semi that we "hadn't had a competitive match since Christmas".

Anyhow, people said we didn't infact try against West Ham, Aston Villa, Man City etc etc and it's certainly fair to say we didn't pick anywhere near our strongest teams. As most everyone would know by now I guess, I think if you pick a lesser team you lessen the chances of winning the match so it seemed only fair to take account of that. Like I say, I'm pretty sure that in the analysis that went on in the aftermath my twopennethworth was that we would have actually been 13 or 14 points adrift.

by **SundanceKid** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:10 pm

We really should have had the league this year. We just had a horrible series of results in the winter, a lot of which could have easily been avoided. Draw after draw after draw.

by **bigmick** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:17 pm

SundanceKid wrote:We really should have had the league this year. We just had a horrible series of results in the winter, a lot of which could have easily been avoided. Draw after draw after draw.

Just occasionally you post something extremely odd, and this is a good example. It leads me to believe that either you are a) not very knowledgeable about the game of association football or b) a wind-up merchant.

If it is a) then it's no problem of course, like the rest of us you'll kind of pick it up as you go along. If it's b) then when is the great unveiling ceremony. You know the "tee-hee I had you all fooled" revelation (I do enjoy those).

For the record, your post is palpably nonsense. Firstly to say "we should have had the league this year" is just daft, and secondly having a "horrible series of results in the Winter" is a bit like moaning about the heat going up into the sky when you light a camp fire. On the one hand it's a simple question of physics, on the other it's simply that that's when we play in England.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:53 am

bigmick wrote:Well Arsenal certainly challenged this season, despite fading inside the final furlong to finish about five or six points back. I would like to see us be right up there, within no more than a couple of wins of the top of the league with four or five games to go.

Well assuming for a moment that there's something to your climbing Everest analogy, mate (FWIW, I think there is) then we would do quite well for ourselves next season if we could match what Arsenal did this season. Sure, they ended the season without a trophy but then so did we. And, sure, we put them out of the CL but there's no shame in going at that stage. Most importantly, they made a decent fist of their title challenge and seemed to have some fun into the bargain. I'd love to see us going to Old Trafford with everything still to play for in April, that's for certain.

Saint, I agree--if we're still within a half dozen points with about a month to go, I'll be well pleased with the progress we've made. Even better would be that close with a game at Anfield against the league leaders on the horizon.

Personally, I'm more than prepared to say that next season should be Rafa's last if we don't mount a proper challenge again and I struggle to imagine anything--barring the Yanks plumbing new depths of f.uckwittery--that would convince me to give Rafa more time if we didn't challenge next season. Even if we only signed Degan this summer, I think we have a team that is more than capable of beating the 16 teams below us week in, week out--especially considering players like Babel, Lucas, Benayoun and Skrtel will have bedded in. If we do that and take a few points off the big rivals, we'll be there or there abouts. If we don't, the time will have come to consider changing the manager, IMO.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:57 am

Bamaga man wrote:Anyway I'm back off to Oz where the grass is definaely greener, when I get back I'm gonna have a rant about how s.hit this country has become.

Engerland's staunchest defender has grown disillusioned and will soon favour us with a tirade? I tingle in anticipation. :laugh:

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