Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:02 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Alonso's dip in form bears little comparison to Riise's decline

Sorry dont agree with that. Riises' form for two years wasnt in decline unlike Alonsos' it was really only last season for me when Riise suffered. Alonsos' diiiiiiiip went for longer than that.

But like Riise maybe Rafa is considering selling Alonso because of his diiiiiiiiiip in the last two seasons. The only difference I see is that if Rafa is happy with the valuation and offer of the team approaching Alonso he'll take it, so IMO its not so "salvagable" as it may seem. Alonso may not have much choice at the end of the day, but obviously if nobody comes in from him and he continues to perform we're all winners.

But as far as the form thing goes with Riise and him, Alonsos been out of sorts for a lot longer than JAR was.

I disagree with this in couple of ways. First, to suggest that Riise's only had one poor season is to ignore the growing chorus of frustration with the lad going back to August 06 (when Murph kicked off his Riise thread). Obviously it's up to you to decide, IYO, whether those complaints were as valid two years ago as they were last season but there's no question that an increasing number of people were dissatisfied with his form for as long as they have been with Xabi's.

IMO, though, this issue of who's diiiiiip in form lasted longer is beside the point. The issue is severity. Alonso may not have been at his peak these past couple of seasons but I'd suggest that he was still performing at a higher level than Riise was for the team. I've no way to definitely prove that, of course, and I doubt I'd convince you anyway but that's my perception of things.

You may be right, though, that Rafa's looking to sell Alonso due to his dip in form, just like he did with Riise. I do find it interesting, though, that there's been a far greater outcry from supporters (lots of supporters, not just Sabre, Lando, Nan and I! ) about the Alonso sale than there was about the Riise sale. Maybe that tells its own story about their relative diiiiiips in form?

Riise IMO performed to the best of his abilities and has been pretty consistent with his form up until last season where he did have a dip in form. Granted some people may have not rated him as a top LB, but he never was, and people saw weakness' in him from day dot. Most players have weakness' as does Alonso. I just think Riise performed and consistently played to his capabilities more often than Xabi did over the last two seasons.

Alonso hasnt, simple really. So How you can sit there and say it was pretty obvious that Riise would of been shown the door is pretty mystifing to me, especially as you can see Alonso "salvaging" his place after two very average years, but not being able to see the writing on the wall for him is a little ironic personally ? As you said though it was Murph (mainly) who posted numerous topics about him and like I said thats come from day dot more or not, but I havent heard you grumbling too much about his performances, so its a bit like a bolt out of the blue now to find you jumping on the .. it was pretty obvious Rafa was gonna get shot of him bandwagon.

Many people have changed their opinion about Rafa selling Alonso because I think their looking at the bigger picture in all this. I find myself now in two minds as to whether we should sell him. Not just because of a couple of positive displays from him (but this helps, whether its changed Rafas mind I'm not so sure) , but mainly because I'm not so sure it would be worth shelling out a whopping 18 million on Barry, especially as that money IMO is desperately needed elsewhere amongst the team.

Alonso may not have been at his peak these past couple of seasons but I'd suggest that he was still performing at a higher level than Riise was for the team

And I completely disagree with this because Riise by and large has been part of a very successfull and misely defence over this period. We cant just brush Riise aside and give those accolades to Finnan, Carra, Hyypia and Reina, to suggest that is like saying the back three have been carrying Riise all this time, and that is wide of the mark.

While Alonsos' dip in form has had more of an impact on the team as a whole IMO. Our midfield has lacked a cutting edge even more so when Gerrards not playing in it. I think out of the two positions midfeild and defence, the defence has been the better of the two and played more part in the teams success. Where as like now even, the midfield still needs additions out wide and with Alonso being below par in the middle, I'd say its more in need of attention more so than the defence ever was.

So to catergorically state that Alonso was performing at a higher level for the team than Riise was is IMHO a very biased statement.

by **andy_g** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:43 am

i don't know why this is turning into an argument about who deserves to be sold more but i'll chip in anyway

i guess we should be talking about about who is the better player when on top of their game. the general idea surely should be that we constantly improve the quality of the players for each position (though obviously some of benitez's transfer decisions call that into question). the majority seem to think that central midfield is an area that needs no improvement, while left back has been identified as one that does - and for a couple of seasons now.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:15 am

andy_g wrote:i don't know why this is turning into an argument about who deserves to be sold more but i'll chip in anyway

i guess we should be talking about about who is the better player when on top of their game. the general idea surely should be that we constantly improve the quality of the players for each position (though obviously some of benitez's transfer decisions call that into question). the majority seem to think that central midfield is an area that needs no improvement, while left back has been identified as one that does - and for a couple of seasons now.

No arguement.

Just a discussion.

And your own opinion that we needed a LB more than a CM is fair enough. But I think we needed a LW or a RW and the striker that we got before selling Riise and replacing him. Ontop of that saying it was obvious Riises days were numbered, yet Alonso can salavage his after two very average seasons.

I just wondered what Bobs thinking behind that was, thats all.

My Conclusion is .... Hes biased

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:09 am

I think Alonso was overprotected by a lot of fans from criticism until late last season, which probably explains to a large extent the "outcry from fans" Bob. I remember when the idea was first raised that Alonso had played poorly IN ONE GAME. We had everything from "anyone who criticises Alonso knows nothing about football", through to, "only certain specially gifted people could see what Alonso brought to the team", used in his defence.

While when it was first mentioned that maybe we could sell Alonso to raise money to bring in a top striker, some people seemed in danger of having a heart attack.

So I think its very hard for people who have given so much belief and have such an emotional involvement with a player to accept that maybe Alonso wasn't actually as irreplaceable as they once thought, and that maybe his form and contribution to the team had actually dropped. All you have to do is remember the outcry when it was suggested that he was "only" worth about £14million or so.

Riise, while everyone enjoyed his goals and praised his workrate never had similar support even when he was playing well and various rumours valued him at over £10million. I think Riise was unfortunate in that he had a lot of off field problems over the last couple of years and seemed to suffer from a loss of confidence on the pitch.

by **Sabre** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:32 am

I doubt that someone has said here that you have to have special gifts to see the quality of Alonso. I may have said for instance that Alonso does a lot of unsung and thankless work -- as does Mascherano, or did Hamman -- but I don't think that means that I think I have an special gift. If someone said really that it had to be a joke for sure, no-one can say that, not even Stu!

Also not all the Alonso criticism has been fair. I'm not very good at english nuances, but saying "he's nothing more than a water carrier", "Fenerbahce says it all" (didn't hear any Juventus, Arsenal says it all), or even asking whether it's good or bad that Alonso wants to stay

(I think it's always good a player wants to stay, another debate is whether it's good to sell him) , shows some of the criticism has been sharper you mention.

I'm not saying I or others didn't overreact sometimes S@int, but saying the discussion was hot on both sides and usually with the same people involved.

Anyhow, on the subject, I've always appreciated Riise, especially in those years in which decent players in his position are RARE in Europe (Even Spain has average players playing there)).

I think Alonso has been much more appreciated than Riise here, Alonso hasn't received 10% of the stick the Norwegian did. Plus, while the people giving regular stick to Alonso are well known and countable with the fingers of one hand, Riise received massive criticism here. IMHO a bit unfairly.

Another difference between the two is their price, of course. I think that even if it's obvious Rafa was ready to sell ALonso, the fact that even with that willingness he didn't accept a 14M shows 14M is just too little money for the Spanish international, despite quite a few people here would have accepted that amount hastily if that meant to bring Silva or Barry.

I think aswell that even if Rafa is ready to sell Alonso, Alonso won't see much of the bench this season -- bar rotation -- that is, I don't think Lucas or Plessis will remove him from a CL semifinal team selection.

Of course if Gerrard is played regularly in CM in a stable partnership with Mascherano, in that case, Alonso would be third option probably, but never 4th or 5th. Riise instead, would struggle to play with the Dossena and Fabio Aurelio (if fit) and Arbeloa competition.

by **moreinjuredthanowen** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:39 am

1. risse. good riddance it was clear that amramoviches guys got to him and bribed him big time, not for the goal alone but the two hapless lazy performances he put in!

2. alonso. who ran the most in the second leg of the euro semi. no not your masch, not your gerrards, alonso was head and shoulders over the two. Doesn't get any creadit for the work he puts in. totally unnoticed.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:16 pm

Well, let me respond by saying, first, that I have always liked Riise--definitely one of my favourite players during the Houllier years and the first few under Rafa--and I thought the stick he received on here was often over the top. So, if I'm biased toward Alonso* that shouldn't be mistaken for meaning I'm anti-Riise, because I'm not. I just think it was time for him to move on (like it was Hamann's time to move on and Dudek's and Murphy's and other great servants of the club).

Bamaga man wrote:Riise IMO performed to the best of his abilities and has been pretty consistent with his form up until last season where he did have a dip in form. Granted some people may have not rated him as a top LB, but he never was, and people saw weakness' in him from day dot. Most players have weakness' as does Alonso. I just think Riise performed and consistently played to his capabilities more often than Xabi did over the last two seasons.

Alonso hasnt, simple really. So How you can sit there and say it was pretty obvious that Riise would of been shown the door is pretty mystifing to me, especially as you can see Alonso "salvaging" his place after two very average years, but not being able to see the writing on the wall for him is a little ironic personally ?

So, simply performing to the best of one's abilities is the criteria we're using? Kuyt, during the run-in last season, was performing near enough to the best of his abilities (as they apply to English football), IMO, and most people would still not consider that good enough. It's got to be about more than that. Alonso, IMO, while of course having weaknesses, is a better player than Riise and would be harder to replace. That's why I felt and still feel that Riise should have gone and Alonso should stay.

Many people have changed their opinion about Rafa selling Alonso because I think their looking at the bigger picture in all this. I find myself now in two minds as to whether we should sell him. Not just because of a couple of positive displays from him (but this helps, whether its changed Rafas mind I'm not so sure) , but mainly because I'm not so sure it would be worth shelling out a whopping 18 million on Barry, especially as that money IMO is desperately needed elsewhere amongst the team.

You're no doubt right, many who are singing Xabi's name now do so because they now think the Barry deal doesn't add up. But, there are still many of us who NEVER thought the Barry deal made sense. If nothing else--and this addresses Saint's point as well--there's clear passion for Xabi amongst a lot supporters. I'm not sure Riise ever attained that level of support and, rightly or wrongly, I think that tells its own story about their relative value to the team.

Alonso may not have been at his peak these past couple of seasons but I'd suggest that he was still performing at a higher level than Riise was for the team

And I completely disagree with this because Riise by and large has been part of a very successfull and misely defence over this period. We cant just brush Riise aside and give those accolades to Finnan, Carra, Hyypia and Reina, to suggest that is like saying the back three have been carrying Riise all this time, and that is wide of the mark.

While Alonsos' dip in form has had more of an impact on the team as a whole IMO. Our midfield has lacked a cutting edge even more so when Gerrards not playing in it. I think out of the two positions midfeild and defence, the defence has been the better of the two and played more part in the teams success. Where as like now even, the midfield still needs additions out wide and with Alonso being below par in the middle, I'd say its more in need of attention more so than the defence ever was.

Like I said, I didn't expect to convince you on this point. To me, Riise's been more of a liability than Alonso has been, despite playing his part in a very stingy defense. There's no way to definitively prove this, of course--how do you measure the relative success of a LB/LM and a CM across a couple of seasons? I comes down to impressions, which leads to...

So to catergorically state that Alonso was performing at a higher level for the team than Riise was is IMHO a very biased statement.

*Ahh, the old question of bias. Here, I'll tie back into what I said above and admit that, yes, of course I'm biased. No question about it. I think Alonso's a fantastic player and well worth a place in the team. Riise, IMO, isn't on his level. I won't deny it because there's no getting away from it. We're all biased. There is no such thing as a completely objective opinion. You, for instance, are biased against Alonso. Not in any kind of blind, irrational way--just in the sense that he'll have to do a fair bit to impress you. Chalk that up to dips in performance, annoyance with the pro-Alonso brigade, or whatever...it's just as evident as my pro-Alonso bias. So, while it's fun to have these kinds of discussions it won't get very far because I'm never going to convince you that Alonso's been better than Riise and you're never going to convince me that Riise deserved to stay while Alonso got sold. =

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:23 pm

Just a little poetic licence Sabre

You did say "unseen work", which intimated that the people who where defending him were somehow more knowledgeable and able to see things others couldn't.

I think that Alonso like Rafa has suffered a bit of a backlash of criticism due to the initial overprotection. Just as Alonso was never perfect earlier in his Liverpool career, there is no way that he has been as bad as some have indicated over the last couple of seasons.

When Alonso came he was probably the second most important player at the club( after Gerrard), with the money spent since and improvements made to the team that is no longer the case, now he is perhaps not even in the top five or six. This shows more the growth of the team than of Alonso's decline, but it does open up the door to allow more criticism of him.

I have always thought he was a deep-lying playmaker rather than a conventional defensive midfielder, and think maybe this is were some of his problems arose. Once we signed a more conventional defensive midfielder (Masch) the comparison between the two became very onesided as Masch showed how much better he was...... but only as a defensive midfielder!

Alonso's vision and range of passing are far superior to Mascherano's, but if Alonso is only passing the ball 10yards sideways that ability is of no real value. Like Pirlo we need to see Alonso creating more, because defensively he is always going to be second best to a genuine top class defensive midfielder.

I could argue that the lack of interest of any side being willing to buy Alonso for over £12million puts a question mark over his value as well Sabre, but its all supposition and guesswork as to respective values anyway.

I think besides the obvious loss of form Riise suffered, he was also sold because Rafa thought he was bringing in a player in Barry that could play both of Riise's positions when required, as well as taking Alonso's place in the team (We also needed the money). I certainly have seen little improvement so far from Dossena and while many think that Aurelio is also much better than Riise, I havent seen it......yet.

While unlike with Sissoko, I don't think we will live to regret Riise being sold, I think if Rafa had known Barry wasn't coming Riise would not have been sold!

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:26 pm

Far too early to slag off Dossena. You have to remember he has been playing in a very different league for his entire career. Now I'm not going to say he is going to be the best LB in the Premiership but lets give the guy a chance to get used to
1) the speed of the Premiership
2) working with new team mates
3)probably being asked to do a slightlt different job as Rafa has his own ways of doing things
4) new language
5) dealing with the pressure that comes when you are playing for one of the biggest clubs in world football

He has played 1 premiership game. Everyone has admitted his 2nd half performance was better than his first. Lets give the guy a chance to keep improving before we slag him off completely.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:31 pm

Ola Mr Benitez wrote:Far too early to slag off Dossena. You have to remember he has been playing in a very different league for his entire career. Now I'm not going to say he is going to be the best LB in the Premiership but lets give the guy a chance to get used to
1) the speed of the Premiership
2) working with new team mates
3)probably being asked to do a slightlt different job as Rafa has his own ways of doing things
4) new language
5) dealing with the pressure that comes when you are playing for one of the biggest clubs in world football

He has played 1 premiership game. Everyone has admitted his 2nd half performance was better than his first. Lets give the guy a chance to keep improving before we slag him off completely.

I can't say I have seen anyone "slag off " Dossena, certainly not in this thread anyway.

by **Sabre** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:36 pm

Just a little poetic licence Sabre You did say "unseen work", which intimated that the people who where defending him were somehow more knowledgeable and able to see things others couldn't

Ah yes, I may have said that. We call unseen or "covered" work to the kind of work that isn't seen in the highlights, but Alonso's unseen or unsung or thankless

work isn't any different to other player's unseen work. I understand though that some people felt offended if they got my sentence as I'm more knowledgeable. I only would say that to wind up someone, and not too seriously :laugh:

I could argue that the lack of interest of any side being willing to buy Alonso for over £12million puts a question mark over his value as well Sabre, but its all supposition and guesswork as to respective values anyway.

Yes, it's debatable, and it also depends on how much you need to sell, how much money there's in the market -- if Ronaldo was sold chain reactions would have unfold.

I think that Alonso like Rafa has suffered a bit of a backlash of criticism due to the initial overprotection. Just as Alonso was never perfect earlier in his Liverpool career, there is no way that he has been as bad as some have indicated over the last couple of seasons.

When Alonso came he was probably the second most important player at the club( after Gerrard), with the money spent since and improvements made to the team that is no longer the case, now he is perhaps not even in the top five or six. This shows more the growth of the team than of Alonso's decline, but it does open up the door to allow more criticism of him.

We agree here. I think that Alonso was too praised the first two seasons. I remember good old Ciggy telling me things like "bit harsh with Alonso there" when **I** was making a criticism of Alonso :laugh:

I think aswell that that hasn't helped him later.

I also agree that the very positive impact of Mascherano -- no doubts -- made some comparisons sharper.

All in all, fair enough your post. But rest assured I don't have a special gift further than being able to drink a 1L beer jar in a record time.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:44 pm

s@int wrote:
Ola Mr Benitez wrote:Far too early to slag off Dossena. You have to remember he has been playing in a very different league for his entire career. Now I'm not going to say he is going to be the best LB in the Premiership but lets give the guy a chance to get used to
1) the speed of the Premiership
2) working with new team mates
3)probably being asked to do a slightlt different job as Rafa has his own ways of doing things
4) new language
5) dealing with the pressure that comes when you are playing for one of the biggest clubs in world football

He has played 1 premiership game. Everyone has admitted his 2nd half performance was better than his first. Lets give the guy a chance to keep improving before we slag him off completely.

I can't say I have seen anyone "slag off " Dossena, certainly not in this thread anyway.

maybe "slaggin off" is a bit strong but nobody seems to have anything positive to say.. In fact, its all been very negative..

I come from an era when players played for a season with the reserves, getting used to the speed of the game and the way Liverpool played. New players do not have that luxury, but a lot of fans seem to think a player is expected to walk into the team and play like he has only ever played with the reds.

Very few players do that, especially from abroad.. Torres is probably one of the few exceptions.. (thanks the lord!)

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:17 pm

To be honest mate , that was always a bit of a myth, very few expensive players have had the luxury of spending time in the reserves. McDermott , Molby and Kennedy being 3 that spring to mind, but most have always been thrown in to the team to sink or swim. Certainly we have always bought players for the future such as Hanson who spent time in the reserves but so do all clubs.

Going back to when I first started watching Liverpool in the 60's even ...... Hateley, Hughes and Evans all were thrown in to the first team, Keegan, Cormack, Toshack etc etc right up to the present manager with Alonso, Garcia, Morientes.

Usually if a player DOESN'T make a good early impression they tend not to make it.... Josemi, Nunez,Pelligrino, Gonzales etc

While its much too early to make any sort of real assessment of Dossena yet, he has certainly not shown enough to claim the fullback spot as his own so far.

by **Owzat** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:21 pm

Good points S@int. Don't forget Dossena has the burden of being our most expensive defender ever.................................

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:57 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Well, let me respond by saying, first, that I have always liked Riise--definitely one of my favourite players during the Houllier years and the first few under Rafa--and I thought the stick he received on here was often over the top. So, if I'm biased toward Alonso* that shouldn't be mistaken for meaning I'm anti-Riise, because I'm not. I just think it was time for him to move on (like it was Hamann's time to move on and Dudek's and Murphy's and other great servants of the club).

Bamaga man wrote:Riise IMO performed to the best of his abilities and has been pretty consistent with his form up until last season where he did have a dip in form. Granted some people may have not rated him as a top LB, but he never was, and people saw weakness' in him from day dot. Most players have weakness' as does Alonso. I just think Riise performed and consistently played to his capabilities more often than Xabi did over the last two seasons.

Alonso hasnt, simple really. So How you can sit there and say it was pretty obvious that Riise would of been shown the door is pretty mystifing to me, especially as you can see Alonso "salvaging" his place after two very average years, but not being able to see the writing on the wall for him is a little ironic personally ?

So, simply performing to the best of one's abilities is the criteria we're using? Kuyt, during the run-in last season, was performing near enough to the best of his abilities (as they apply to English football), IMO, and most people would still not consider that good enough. It's got to be about more than that. Alonso, IMO, while of course having weaknesses, is a better player than Riise and would be harder to replace. That's why I felt and still feel that Riise should have gone and Alonso should stay.

Many people have changed their opinion about Rafa selling Alonso because I think their looking at the bigger picture in all this. I find myself now in two minds as to whether we should sell him. Not just because of a couple of positive displays from him (but this helps, whether its changed Rafas mind I'm not so sure) , but mainly because I'm not so sure it would be worth shelling out a whopping 18 million on Barry, especially as that money IMO is desperately needed elsewhere amongst the team.

You're no doubt right, many who are singing Xabi's name now do so because they now think the Barry deal doesn't add up. But, there are still many of us who NEVER thought the Barry deal made sense. If nothing else--and this addresses Saint's point as well--there's clear passion for Xabi amongst a lot supporters. I'm not sure Riise ever attained that level of support and, rightly or wrongly, I think that tells its own story about their relative value to the team.

Alonso may not have been at his peak these past couple of seasons but I'd suggest that he was still performing at a higher level than Riise was for the team

And I completely disagree with this because Riise by and large has been part of a very successfull and misely defence over this period. We cant just brush Riise aside and give those accolades to Finnan, Carra, Hyypia and Reina, to suggest that is like saying the back three have been carrying Riise all this time, and that is wide of the mark.

While Alonsos' dip in form has had more of an impact on the team as a whole IMO. Our midfield has lacked a cutting edge even more so when Gerrards not playing in it. I think out of the two positions midfeild and defence, the defence has been the better of the two and played more part in the teams success. Where as like now even, the midfield still needs additions out wide and with Alonso being below par in the middle, I'd say its more in need of attention more so than the defence ever was.

Like I said, I didn't expect to convince you on this point. To me, Riise's been more of a liability than Alonso has been, despite playing his part in a very stingy defense. There's no way to definitively prove this, of course--how do you measure the relative success of a LB/LM and a CM across a couple of seasons? I comes down to impressions, which leads to...

So to catergorically state that Alonso was performing at a higher level for the team than Riise was is IMHO a very biased statement.

*Ahh, the old question of bias. Here, I'll tie back into what I said above and admit that, yes, of course I'm biased. No question about it. I think Alonso's a fantastic player and well worth a place in the team. Riise, IMO, isn't on his level. I won't deny it because there's no getting away from it. We're all biased. There is no such thing as a completely objective opinion. You, for instance, are biased against Alonso. Not in any kind of blind, irrational way--just in the sense that he'll have to do a fair bit to impress you. Chalk that up to dips in performance, annoyance with the pro-Alonso brigade, or whatever...it's just as evident as my pro-Alonso bias. So, while it's fun to have these kinds of discussions it won't get very far because I'm never going to convince you that Alonso's been better than Riise and you're never going to convince me that Riise deserved to stay while Alonso got sold. =

Thats a fair enough point Bob, I'm not going to carry it on. Just wanted to see your point a little more clearly.

As for me being biased against Alonso, I wouldnt say thats totally true though mate. Its simple for me really, if a player playes like a water carrier I'll call it. If hes blinding for us I'll give credit where its due, same with the manager.

unfortuntely in my eyes Alonsos form over the last couple of seasons has been below average, and quite frankly its more than just a "handful" of people who have admitted it.

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