Liverpool FC Forum

by **Igor Zidane** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:10 pm

Big no no on selling Lucas . The lad has got the talent and the abillity to become a very good player for LFC. Like i've said many a time , i've liked him from the start , he just needs to be a bit stronger on the ball and a bit quicker in posession of the ball and he will be a big asset this season . His positioning is sound , his passing and forsight are very good when he's got time and he likes to get into the box to score and create chances.

by **Owzat** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:49 pm

Simari wrote:Very misleading here mate.

The first 2 seasons were a clearout. If we'd only bought 1-2 top signings, we'd be left with half a team, literally and leaking goals over those seasons.

You could argue wholesale changes don't help the team, Rafa also managed to spend £10.5m on Alonso. The base spine of the previous incumbent's team remained, Dudek, Finnan, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Hamann, Kewell, Baros and Cisse (signed inbetween managers) not to mention Traore, Biscan, Warnock, Le Tallec, Pongolle and others.

So while I agree in theory some fresh signings were needed, some were so stop gap as to be pointless, even swapping one for another and both were gone in short spaces of time. And the squad was pretty big when Rafa took it over, if you've ever played CM06 you may be vaguely aware the squad size is near 60 - admittedly includes some of Rafa's first few signings, but plenty of loaned out (and other) Houllier players. The offloading of Houllier players wasn't as instant as you're having us believe, a lot of players were sent out on loan. Add to that the FREE signings of Pellegrino and Zenden and you can see that you don't have to spend to sign players, albeit only Zenden of the two was just about worth signing.

And four seasons in the Liverpool team still contained from time to time some or all of Finnan, Riise, Hyypia, Carragher, Gerrard and Kewell which is over half a team. I think we've had around three team's worth of different forward lines - Baros, Cisse, Pongolle, Mellor, Morientes, Fowler, Bellamy, Voronin, Kuyt, Crouch, Babel, El Zhar and Torres

Now if you were to say it wasn't easy finding buyers for a lot of Houllier's players then I may agree, one of the problems you may be all too aware of if you ever managed Liverpool on CM06.

So first season up you might forgive it, but two to four seasons in is less so. And the signings continue to leave me as full of fear as hope with Degen, Dossena and Diego the confirmed signings thus far (£10m the lot, let's hope we get £10m worth)

by **Owzat** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:55 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Big no no on selling Lucas . The lad has got the talent and the abillity to become a very good player for LFC. Like i've said many a time , i've liked him from the start , he just needs to be a bit stronger on the ball and a bit quicker in posession of the ball and he will be a big asset this season . His positioning is sound , his passing and forsight are very good when he's got time and he likes to get into the box to score and create chances.

While I am apprehensive about Rafa signing some of the younger players who look at least a couple of seasons shy of first team level, I would have to agree there's no point signing someone like Lucas only to offload him to raise funds. We wouldn't get best value right now anyway so it would have been better not to sign him in the first place than offload within a season or two. We did the same with Paletta and some others, while we're not spending the earth on some of these players it is rather a nothing process, like me building a fantastic Liverpool side in my first season on Championship Manager then second season buying one or two more top players maybe not available but clearing out the reserves to raise money I don't need and then dumping a whole load more kids in the reserves so I can repeat the process again the next season.

It would be great if that were possible in real life as I could easily raise £50m Tommy Cooper style, but there is no real point to it as most of the kids I sign never get near the 1st team and while they improve it would be simpler just to let the academy develop most of them and sign one or two of the better ones from other clubs. I'd hate to think how much Rafa has spent on the youngsters, Lucas I heard cost £5m which may or may not be true. Paletta cost £2m and who knows what others are coming in at. Even a few hundred thou could be put towards bigger fish, it's not as if our kids are the worst around.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:11 pm

Number 9 wrote:If Alonso does'nt go I think Rafa's plans will be up in the air.It seems we are relying on this deal to go through to put most of the money up for Barry!

That pretty much sums it up i'd say. Think we will be well and truly fooked for money if Barry comes in and Alonso stays.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:17 pm

bigmick wrote:What if my "opening day of the season" team is correct?

Reina

Arbeloa Carragher Agger Dossena

Kuyt Gerrard Masherano Barry

Keane

Torres

It looks a solid side (for our 4-4-2) to me but we won't be winning much this season if that turns out to be the regular side. Barry can play left-mid when we want a more compact side but I'd be surprised if he's been bought to play out wide on a regular basis.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:54 pm

Can't see the point of selling Lucas at the moment, TBPH. There's no way we'd recoup the 8 million (is that right? read that in another post) we paid last season for him, given that he's been a bit part player for us rather than latest BRAZILIAN PLAYER OF THE YEAR. I'm not sold on this lad for us but he does need at least another season to show whether he's up to it or not. Sadly, if we're skint, selling Alonso is the best way to generate the cash...even if I'd take him over Lucas every day of the week on the footy pitch.

by **kalos** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:10 pm

Quote

""As for Lucas i'd sell him no bother!
I think i've seen one match were he caught my eye and looked good.I fail to see anyother reason s in an LFC shirt he deserves any of the praise some give him on here""

Absolutley spot on . Lucas is getting on for 21.

Were there any doubts about Gerrard, Owen , Fowler , at that age?

Why are so many people undecided if he really is the top player that some claim he is /can be?

Lucas will NEVER be a top player in the premiership - too slow in thought and deed and not tough enough to operate in any central midfield role. Sell him sooner rather than later IMHO.

And yes you can quote me

by **Sabre** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:07 pm

Many people have said that Rafa can't be criticised in this forum.

Well, yesterday night I was reading a lengthy long post of Stu the Red, and while reading I was thinking "I cannot say this criticism is unfair", I could not argue much of what Stu was saying about the signing ups.

Others like Conn have brought some similar ideas

I think that Lucas has the ability to be a bloody good player..... To sell him now, IMHO, would be a bad mistake. From what I've seen of the lad, the potential is definitely there. Whether or not he blossoms into a world beater will depend on how much game time he's gonna get under Rafa as it's hard to imagine Rafa breaking up the triumvirate of Gerrard, Mascherano and Xabi/Barry.

8M are a lot of money for a midfielder and Lucas hasn't been used enough to make his value increase, so I hardly can consider him a good sell right now.

I'm a bit confused to be honest, because it seems that players like Alonso, or Lucas for that matter, who were supposed to be long term players for this project of winning the league, are going to be out, while other positions such as LW or RW are far from being convincing. It's more confusing to me to see selling the likes of Alonso or even Lucas, than the ones like Gonzalez or players who never really settled down. You cannot say that about Alonso, and he was supposed to be a very important player according to Rafa. So for me, "the situation" has indeed changed.

I think some mate (dunno remember who, sorry) defined it as if Rafa wanted to collectionate the ultimate CM.

To be honest, I'm a bit confused about all this, and I'll be able to answer what I think about the topic of this thread once we see if Barry comes, and once we see we're gonna sign quality for the wings.

So selling Lucas or Alonso? Alonso seems to be the best option money-wise, but both sellings would concern me.

When it comes to have the position covered, the holding midfield has Mascherano, Alonso, Plessi, and perhaps Barry. If Barry doesn't come then I'd see the Alonso selling reckless.

When we talk about midfielders who are not wingers nor holding, we can talk about Gerrard, as the main and best option, but I see Lucas as a great option for the future. We haven't much more. We have Benayouns, who's a jack in all trades but master in no one and doubtfully more productive than Luis Garcia, we have Babels, who I'd like him if he costed 3M but for 11M I'm far from satisfied so far, not that we have a lot of reliable options if Gerrard has a 2 month injury to play someone behind Torres or as a non defensive CM. Alonso would be a better selling, if Barry comes, money wise, and squad-needs wise.

by **Toffeehater** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:11 pm

ConnO'var wrote:I think that Lucas has the ability to be a bloody good player..... To sell him now, IMHO, would be a bad mistake. From what I've seen of the lad, the potential is definitely there. Whether or not he blossoms into a world beater will depend on how much game time he's gonna get under Rafa as it's hard to imagine Rafa breaking up the triumvirate of Gerrard, Mascherano and Xabi/Barry.

If money is the issue, then our most saleable player in central midfield is Stevie who is indispensable for us IMO.
It'll be crazy to sell Mascherano and that leaves Xabi.

Letting Xabi go to bring in Barry for the left wing slot will leave us with a a 4 man midfield looking like this on most days

Babel/Kuyt Gerrard Mascherano Barry

Should one of one central midfielders get hurt than Barry can swing back to cover with Lucas and possibly Plesis as 4th choice.
Not 100% desirable but workable.

On current form, Xabi is not far ahead of Lucas and is worth much more on the open market..... So Rafa has it spot on with the central midfielder he's put in the shop window. If Xabi does stay, sadly then I think Stevies's gonna be shipped out to the right. Else Xabi will either be put on the bench (and slowly devalue with every game he warms it) or he'd better rediscover his form.... something I don't think will happen in the immediate future unless something drastic occurs like a severe reduction in Rotation which will alow him to play back into form and build an understanding with the players around him which will consequently afford him more time on the ball to neutralize the tactic of harrying him.

Top post mate completely agree

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:34 pm

Not sure how anyone thinks that if sold now we would get anything like the money a) we paid for him or b) what Alonso would fetch, for Lucas

Granted he came at a young age to a different league with a different style of play and it can take time to adapt.
Lucas did ok, he showed some decent touches at first and you can see he has a little bit of pace, but he is rash at the moment and not strong enough. The strength can be sorted as can the composure to an extent, so AT THIS MINUTE AND TIME i cant see any reason to sell him. We would be writing off imo about 4-5 million in what we paid.
I dont really want to sell Alonso, but like bamaga said would rather have Barry and if we are as f'cked financially as it appears then i would sacrifice him for Barry.

Like most have said there should be others areas that are addressed first but lets hope Rafa will do both, if he doesnt then we will go into this season still struggling to break some sides down.

Just to summarise this, sell Alonso or Lucas ?

Well Xabi is a far far better player but might not be used enough, if we can get 16 million and we need it, then sell.
Lucas at this stage isnt worth selling, we might as well keep hold of him and cross our fingers that he shows more of the good side to his game than the rash and panicky other side.

by **Owzat** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:41 am

We're debating which one of two to sell to make way for a player just like them. Granted he'd probably be an improvement on Lucas but then we'd be paying many times the price for it. And we'll almost certainly lose money if we sell Alonso to make way for Barny, so where's the great gain? I could understand it if we were getting a vastly superior player at the cost of a few million, but that's not the case.

We should be getting a bit of cash in, already we have sold Crouch for £11m and Riise for £4m with Guthrie maybe for £2.5m and Carson may well be sold, hopefully for a bit more than the £3m reportedly paid for Diego. If we can offload Pennant to Blackburn for a minimum £5m then there would be some more funds, if we're going to sell Alonso I'd rather it was towards either a world class midfielder or a striker of something like Torres' class

by **JC_81** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:50 am

Scottbot wrote:
bigmick wrote:What if my "opening day of the season" team is correct?

Reina

Arbeloa Carragher Agger Dossena

Kuyt Gerrard Masherano Barry

Keane

Torres

It looks a solid side (for our 4-4-2) to me but we won't be winning much this season if that turns out to be the regular side. Barry can play left-mid when we want a more compact side but I'd be surprised if he's been bought to play out wide on a regular basis.

Spot on mate.

Barry has to play as a central midfielder when he signs. No big clubs came in for him when he was predominantly a left back/left mid and he was rarely in the England squads. Since his conversion to central midfield suddenly we are interested and he is in the starting 11 for England. To me that suggests his best position is central midfield.

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:18 am

john craig wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
bigmick wrote:What if my "opening day of the season" team is correct?

Reina

Arbeloa Carragher Agger Dossena

Kuyt Gerrard Masherano Barry

Keane

Torres

It looks a solid side (for our 4-4-2) to me but we won't be winning much this season if that turns out to be the regular side. Barry can play left-mid when we want a more compact side but I'd be surprised if he's been bought to play out wide on a regular basis.

Spot on mate.

Barry has to play as a central midfielder when he signs. No big clubs came in for him when he was predominantly a left back/left mid and he was rarely in the England squads. Since his conversion to central midfield suddenly we are interested and he is in the starting 11 for England. To me that suggests his best position is central midfield.

dont even need to make any subs to instantly change the team:

Reina
Arbeloa Carra Agger Dossena
Mascherano Barry
Kuyt Gerrard Keane
Torres

by **RedBlood** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:52 am

So get rid of a midfielder who has everything in his locker, the potential 2 become world class & is only 21

because were bringing in a player who is "top quality" but no higher & 27 going on 28

?

?

yes thats a brillant idea

& whats wrong with us having barry, alonso & lucas after all its not like were only going 2 play a 4-4-2 every game plus barry & lucas can play in a number of positons

by **RedBlood** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:55 am

Riena

Skrtel Carragher Agger

Mascherano

Gerrard Alonso Lucas Barry

Torres Babel

4 example

Liverpool FC Forum

If alonso does stay........ - What about flogging lucas?

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