Liverpool FC Forum

by **Dundalk** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:32 am

League - Same as last year Im afraid not really good enough we need to get closer

Champions League - A great effort and the games can be decided by the slightest of margins.

Fa Cup - Should not be getting dumped out by a team like Barnsley

Carlimg Cup - Who cares??

by **lakes10** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:33 am

s@int wrote:What this thread is short of is a Rose Tinted glasses look at the season. TBH i don't know how Tompkins manages to make even the most damning of facts seem almost acceptable and and positive. I suppose thats why he gets paid for his posts and we just get abuse

TOMKINS: SILVER LININGS ABOUND
Paul Tomkins 01 May 2008
Everything in life has a silver lining. Even the worst things imaginable, providing they are survived, can make you stronger, or more humble, or more appreciative.

Liverpool may end the season empty-handed, but have shown the guts and determination to try and rescue lost causes, right from the fourth game of the group stage onwards when the most remarkable escape act was undertaken. And, of course, there's been no little quality too. Goals have been in plentiful supply, and it's been a memorable campaign that was alive until the 120th minute of the semi-final second-leg.

In football, you have to take the rough with the smooth. Character is borne from setbacks, whether deserved or not. As with last year, I don't think a potential Champions League Final against Manchester United was what this relatively young team needed right now in terms of its development. I know a lot of fans feel the same, but of course, no Red wanted anything other than a Liverpool win once the semi-final kicked off.

It's not that I think United's recent record against Liverpool, and the fact that they're ahead in terms of team development, made them massive favourites; for a game like that it had to be 50-50.

After all, Benítez had won the only cup game against United, back in 2006, and Liverpool have a better psychological air in the Champions League. But it would have been too big a game –– the biggest club game Europe has ever seen; I said the same a year ago when the possibility was on the horizon. Liverpool have improved since then, but United are still the older, more experienced and more expensively-assembled side.

It would have been 50-50 odds, but like in a game of Russian roulette with three bullets in six chambers –– an especially apt metaphor, given the location of the final. United fans weren't keen on the idea either, but at least they had the league title in the bag as something to fall back on.

They could bounce back more easily from losing the final, and as things stand, Liverpool, I feel, can bounce back more easily from losing the semi-final than had defeat occurred in Russia. But it wasn't to be.

The law of averages suggested Chelsea had to win a semi-final against Liverpool sooner or later. The first goal is always crucial, and that it was offside in the build-up is irritating but par for the course of rubbish decisions when Liverpool play Chelsea. Even the one decision Chelsea feel they were cheated out of, in 2005, saved them from conceding a penalty and having Cech sent off. (The ref that night seems to be the only person outside of Liverpool fans who acknowledges this.)

The two decisions involving Sami Hyypia summed up Liverpool's luck with officials in games against Chelsea –– the Finn gave away a blatant penalty (no arguments there) but won an equally blatant one, too. Or rather, he would have had the referee not bottled it, putting his whistle to his lips but mysteriously changing his mind.

At least the officials rightly struck off Essien's goal, with a player jumping up and down in front of Reina as one of four offside players. If these type of offences aren't offside, as with the one at the weekend at Birmingham, then the law is an absolute joke.

Liverpool also had the worse luck with injuries, losing defenders in both games. So everything went against the Reds.

I have to say that didn't agree with Rafa's tactic of singling out Drogba for criticism, even though I totally agreed with the sentiment over the way such a powerful player can be strong when he wants to be, but when the defenders stand up to him with equal force, as they have to, he crumples like an aneamic anorexic. But Drogba would have been fired up for this one either way.

So overall I'm disappointed –– but not disheartened; far from it. I look for the positives, the signs of progress, as a matter of course. There's been plenty this season; alas, other teams are progressing too, and you can't do anything about that. I'm sure Rafa would love to be able to buy players like Anelka for £15m in the middle of the season, just to use them from the bench. But how many managers have such a luxury?

This season Liverpool have scored far more goals than in recent years (116 so far), but on the whole not without sacrificing defensive stability. Progress. Six players have got into double figures, and I can't recall the last time that happened. Again, progress. The overall balance of the side is very strong, and as with last summer the right additions can take the team up another level; unlike last summer, the project is that bit nearer completion. But there's still room for improvement in a couple of positions, and in the overall depth of the squad.

What Benítez has done is create a side that never says die; this team has come from behind to win key games ever since he arrived –– Olympiacos, Luton, AC Milan, and most recently, Arsenal –– and defensive or one-dimensional teams don't do that. It gave every last ounce of effort at Stamford Bridge, and over the two games Petr Cech had the more meaningful saves to make.

Unfortunately, one newspaper piece this morning read: "After four seasons under Benítez Liverpool are no closer to Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal in the league than they were in 2004 when Gérard Houllier left Anfield."

I respect the author, having known him a few years ago, but this is utter tripe, as was the suggestion that Benítez is still living off Istanbul. The gap was 30 points in 2004, and 21 points last season. Currently it's down to 11 points. How is that being 'no closer' to the other three big clubs? I'm no mathematician, but even I can spot a closing gap. Over the past three seasons, Liverpool have accrued more league points than Arsenal, lest we forget.

Meanwhile, the gap to fifth has been extended, with three good away results recently secured with a 'squad' team. Again, more signs of progress.

As a result, Liverpool are comfortably established within the top four, something that wasn't the case four/five years ago. But the challenge to win the title remains an immense one, given that the other three teams are also especially strong, particularly the top two with their far greater riches.

The Reds didn't lose to either Chelsea or Arsenal in the league, or to either London side over 90 minutes in four Champions League games (defeat to Chelsea came in extra-time, and in the League Cup which is now a virtual reserves competition). That's eight meaningful games of parity between Liverpool and two clubs who were miles ahead when Benítez arrived. Manchester United still have the upper hand in head-to-heads, but a bit more luck for Liverpool at Anfield and that will deservedly change.

I've mentioned the success of the Reds' youth and reserve teams a few times lately, but that's all part of the overall improvement; it took both Ferguson and Wenger years to get their systems right before players started filtering through to the first team, so Benítez and his staff have done an excellent job in this respect. I'd expect journalists to pay some kind of attention to all the work a manager does, particularly laying foundations.

Six of this season's signings –– Torres, Babel, Benayoun, Skrtel, Lucas, and the now permanently-signed Mascherano –– have all added new dimensions, with each looking a very astute buy; the average age of that sextet is just 23. Voronin and Leto haven't quite worked out as yet, for a number of reasons including injury, but neither is a bad player. Also, a number of teenagers have featured in the first team in the league this season.

And all this during another European season that was very, very good, and fell just a fraction short of being excellent. But it's more experience to bank, more victories against top sides on the way to almost making a third final in four seasons.

Regardless of who wins this year's final, no team in Europe has a better Champions League record than the Liverpool manager in Benítez's four years –– the Reds are joint-best with AC Milan, who have also won one of two finals, reached one further semi-final, and fallen at the last-16 stage since Benítez took charge.

If that's not progress for a club ailing in the UEFA Cup in 2003/04, I am utterly at a loss to suggest what is.

lol well i can see why he is paid so much now, i wonder if he can do my Tax bill for me....he might make it look good.

by **lakes10** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:34 am

Dundalk wrote:League - Same as last year Im afraid not really good enough we need to get closer

Champions League - A great effort and the games can be decided by the slightest of margins.

Fa Cup - Should not be getting dumped out by a team like Barnsley

Carlimg Cup - Who cares??

"Carlimg Cup - Who cares??"

I do, its the old Milk cup..........Our Cup

by **CardinalRed** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am

Yes, at the moment Stevie IS indispensable, he is without doubt (and not with my Red specs on!) the best Midfielder in this league and his link play makes Torres what he is......
To me, our main fault lies in the amount of soft draws we have had this year, 13 is just not good enough, had we been able to close just half of those games out we would have 82 points now...... Drawing at home to the likes of Birmingham and Wigan will be our eternal achilles heel if we don't develop a killer instinct and the relentlessness shown by our rivals in the top two......

:cool:

by **jonnymac1979** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:36 am

Kharhaz wrote:And to top it all your name is barry !

Fucking brilliant insult!!! :laugh:

by **Sabre** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:46 am

I think the aftermath of an important lost game is not the best moment to make reviews of the season, because chances are high that angry supporters will join the thread and start swearing, and the thread will soon head to a "sack Rafa" debate, and we do not want that. Well some people do but

, I think it's better off to wait a couple of weeks for a calmer reviews.

Anyhow, it's obvious it's not been a good season. I expected more in September. Back then I didn't expect to win the CL, that's very difficult, but I expected to be closer to winning the league. Hence, I cannot say it's been a good season.

So it's not been a good season, but that doesn't mean I don't see progress in this 4 years. Rafa has to be spot on with the signings in summer, he must be helped by the board instead of petty internal fights, and, pretty much like Dalglish says in an excellent post, walk on.

by **bigmick** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:48 am

s@int wrote:The gap was 30 points in 2004, and 21 points last season. Currently it's down to 11 points. How is that being 'no closer' to the other three big clubs? I'm no mathematician, but even I can spot a closing gap.

Feck me he's right. 30 points in 2004, 21 last season and probably about 13 this. the gap IS fecking closing. Mind you hang on, didn't we get within 9 points about three seasons ago? Ah well, I guess it wasn't convenient to mention that just now

.

by **puroresu** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:02 pm

s@int wrote:What this thread is short of is a Rose Tinted glasses look at the season. TBH i don't know how Tompkins manages to make even the most damning of facts seem almost acceptable and and positive. I suppose thats why he gets paid for his posts and we just get abuse

TOMKINS: SILVER LININGS ABOUND
Paul Tomkins 01 May 2008
Everything in life has a silver lining. Even the worst things imaginable, providing they are survived, can make you stronger, or more humble, or more appreciative.

Liverpool may end the season empty-handed, but have shown the guts and determination to try and rescue lost causes, right from the fourth game of the group stage onwards when the most remarkable escape act was undertaken. And, of course, there's been no little quality too. Goals have been in plentiful supply, and it's been a memorable campaign that was alive until the 120th minute of the semi-final second-leg.

In football, you have to take the rough with the smooth. Character is borne from setbacks, whether deserved or not. As with last year, I don't think a potential Champions League Final against Manchester United was what this relatively young team needed right now in terms of its development. I know a lot of fans feel the same, but of course, no Red wanted anything other than a Liverpool win once the semi-final kicked off.

It's not that I think United's recent record against Liverpool, and the fact that they're ahead in terms of team development, made them massive favourites; for a game like that it had to be 50-50.

After all, Benítez had won the only cup game against United, back in 2006, and Liverpool have a better psychological air in the Champions League. But it would have been too big a game –– the biggest club game Europe has ever seen; I said the same a year ago when the possibility was on the horizon. Liverpool have improved since then, but United are still the older, more experienced and more expensively-assembled side.

It would have been 50-50 odds, but like in a game of Russian roulette with three bullets in six chambers –– an especially apt metaphor, given the location of the final. United fans weren't keen on the idea either, but at least they had the league title in the bag as something to fall back on.

They could bounce back more easily from losing the final, and as things stand, Liverpool, I feel, can bounce back more easily from losing the semi-final than had defeat occurred in Russia. But it wasn't to be.

The law of averages suggested Chelsea had to win a semi-final against Liverpool sooner or later. The first goal is always crucial, and that it was offside in the build-up is irritating but par for the course of rubbish decisions when Liverpool play Chelsea. Even the one decision Chelsea feel they were cheated out of, in 2005, saved them from conceding a penalty and having Cech sent off. (The ref that night seems to be the only person outside of Liverpool fans who acknowledges this.)

The two decisions involving Sami Hyypia summed up Liverpool's luck with officials in games against Chelsea –– the Finn gave away a blatant penalty (no arguments there) but won an equally blatant one, too. Or rather, he would have had the referee not bottled it, putting his whistle to his lips but mysteriously changing his mind.

At least the officials rightly struck off Essien's goal, with a player jumping up and down in front of Reina as one of four offside players. If these type of offences aren't offside, as with the one at the weekend at Birmingham, then the law is an absolute joke.

Liverpool also had the worse luck with injuries, losing defenders in both games. So everything went against the Reds.

I have to say that didn't agree with Rafa's tactic of singling out Drogba for criticism, even though I totally agreed with the sentiment over the way such a powerful player can be strong when he wants to be, but when the defenders stand up to him with equal force, as they have to, he crumples like an aneamic anorexic. But Drogba would have been fired up for this one either way.

So overall I'm disappointed –– but not disheartened; far from it. I look for the positives, the signs of progress, as a matter of course. There's been plenty this season; alas, other teams are progressing too, and you can't do anything about that. I'm sure Rafa would love to be able to buy players like Anelka for £15m in the middle of the season, just to use them from the bench. But how many managers have such a luxury?

This season Liverpool have scored far more goals than in recent years (116 so far), but on the whole not without sacrificing defensive stability. Progress. Six players have got into double figures, and I can't recall the last time that happened. Again, progress. The overall balance of the side is very strong, and as with last summer the right additions can take the team up another level; unlike last summer, the project is that bit nearer completion. But there's still room for improvement in a couple of positions, and in the overall depth of the squad.

What Benítez has done is create a side that never says die; this team has come from behind to win key games ever since he arrived –– Olympiacos, Luton, AC Milan, and most recently, Arsenal –– and defensive or one-dimensional teams don't do that. It gave every last ounce of effort at Stamford Bridge, and over the two games Petr Cech had the more meaningful saves to make.

Unfortunately, one newspaper piece this morning read: "After four seasons under Benítez Liverpool are no closer to Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal in the league than they were in 2004 when Gérard Houllier left Anfield."

I respect the author, having known him a few years ago, but this is utter tripe, as was the suggestion that Benítez is still living off Istanbul. The gap was 30 points in 2004, and 21 points last season. Currently it's down to 11 points. How is that being 'no closer' to the other three big clubs? I'm no mathematician, but even I can spot a closing gap. Over the past three seasons, Liverpool have accrued more league points than Arsenal, lest we forget.

Meanwhile, the gap to fifth has been extended, with three good away results recently secured with a 'squad' team. Again, more signs of progress.

As a result, Liverpool are comfortably established within the top four, something that wasn't the case four/five years ago. But the challenge to win the title remains an immense one, given that the other three teams are also especially strong, particularly the top two with their far greater riches.

The Reds didn't lose to either Chelsea or Arsenal in the league, or to either London side over 90 minutes in four Champions League games (defeat to Chelsea came in extra-time, and in the League Cup which is now a virtual reserves competition). That's eight meaningful games of parity between Liverpool and two clubs who were miles ahead when Benítez arrived. Manchester United still have the upper hand in head-to-heads, but a bit more luck for Liverpool at Anfield and that will deservedly change.

I've mentioned the success of the Reds' youth and reserve teams a few times lately, but that's all part of the overall improvement; it took both Ferguson and Wenger years to get their systems right before players started filtering through to the first team, so Benítez and his staff have done an excellent job in this respect. I'd expect journalists to pay some kind of attention to all the work a manager does, particularly laying foundations.

Six of this season's signings –– Torres, Babel, Benayoun, Skrtel, Lucas, and the now permanently-signed Mascherano –– have all added new dimensions, with each looking a very astute buy; the average age of that sextet is just 23. Voronin and Leto haven't quite worked out as yet, for a number of reasons including injury, but neither is a bad player. Also, a number of teenagers have featured in the first team in the league this season.

And all this during another European season that was very, very good, and fell just a fraction short of being excellent. But it's more experience to bank, more victories against top sides on the way to almost making a third final in four seasons.

Regardless of who wins this year's final, no team in Europe has a better Champions League record than the Liverpool manager in Benítez's four years –– the Reds are joint-best with AC Milan, who have also won one of two finals, reached one further semi-final, and fallen at the last-16 stage since Benítez took charge.

If that's not progress for a club ailing in the UEFA Cup in 2003/04, I am utterly at a loss to suggest what is.

The points gap isnt the issue. The issue is whether we have anytime been in the race for the title. It may be 11 points this year but we never were in the hunt to win it so that gap means nothing even though it is smaller. Oh and a CL final can never be a bad thing!!!

by **HacksawJimDuggin** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:15 pm

2 words sum up our season -

STATUS QUO

We have neither progressed or regressed this season. We finish in 4th and do well in the Champions League just like last year.

What has changed is the state of the club in the background...become a farce! Unless we get this resolved then it'll be regression next year as opposed the progression we all crave.

I still believe that we are not a millions miles from Man Utd and Chelsea. Hopefully Rafa has learnt more about the EPL this year, buys well in the summer (includes a clear out) and we come back bigger and stronger...once we get the boardroom issues resolved!!

by **figgis** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:18 pm

at some point this season rafa realised you have to play your strongest team to get anywhere in the prem. gerrard is the best midfielder in the country rafa will continue to tinker next season and with the addition of some new players we will be closer next season maybe third but i would say more of the the same which would explain why gerrard seems a bit down at the moment. we wont be ready for at least 3 years for the yanks have to go with parry and a new set up will see a genuine title challenge.

by **hello_red** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:37 pm

Agreed with Sabre. A season review thread the day after crashing out of the champs league is not gonna be veru inbiassed is it.

Anyway, I see progress its small but its there.

by **bunglemark2** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:40 pm

bigmick wrote:
s@int wrote:The gap was 30 points in 2004, and 21 points last season. Currently it's down to 11 points. How is that being 'no closer' to the other three big clubs? I'm no mathematician, but even I can spot a closing gap.

Feck me he's right. 30 points in 2004, 21 last season and probably about 13 this. the gap IS fecking closing. Mind you hang on, didn't we get within 9 points about three seasons ago? Ah well, I guess it wasn't convenient to mention that just now .

True mate, but the top two especially, are not only the points ahead, but the "quality" ahead, and by a country mile.
Much as I am loathe to admit, you'd have to say that Manure have played more watchable footie than we have this season by a long way. It's one thing hammering Derby 6-0....then again, a Sunday league side could have done that.
We might be closer in mathematical terms, but the inability to kill off games, to add one or two more goals when we have all the possession is the reason we ended up where we did.
Who knows what would have happened if we didn't have JUST Torres to rely on to score goals....the what-ifs, if another striker could poach a la Rush, Aldridge, Owen....
Hopefully Rafa stays, and finds A.N. Other who can be as successful as Torres was in his first season. And I've said here before that the defence frightens me no end. Get Agger back fit. Bolster with a couple of first class CB's and a LB. If you don't concede, you don't lose

by **bunglemark2** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:45 pm

Oh, and one more thing. Another suggestion for Rafa.
Go and settle your differences with Paco. Be humble and accept you can't do everything at a top club like LFC. Look at the clubs around you - why are you so unique ?
It's not a failing to admit you need help - in fact, it's a sign of strength

If Paco isn't the man, go find a suitable alternative.

by **Kash_Mountain** » Thu May 01, 2008 1:15 pm

It's been a very disappointing season, I'm gutted. I for one had thought that we'd be at the top of the tree this campaign.

We need good quality 1st team players to be brought into the club. Also add to that, a good quality number 2 for Rafa.

We do have a number of good youngsters and maybe they'll make a mark next season (I hope so).

IMHO I think we rely to heavily on Stevie.G (afterall he is the driving force of the team). If he's playing well, the whole team plays well. If he's having a stinker then the whole team just looks subdued.

We need to bring in to our club, those players that take the bull by the horns and drives the team forward. Maybe Mascher is slowly getting to be one of those players? Having said that we need many more drivers all over the pitch from the back to the front. We've had these types of players in the past and we most certainly need them now.

Now the season is over, I hope this nonsence in the boardroom comes to a close and everything gets sorted, it better had and if it doesn't by the time the new season starts, then we're in for another rollocoaster.

As for the CL, I hope Cheaski do the Mwanckers and Arsenal win the EPL.

by **StevieL** » Thu May 01, 2008 1:21 pm

we were 20 pts behind in the prem last year. We cut it to 10.
True, we are now 4th, but thats due to arsenal playing much better this season.
we didnt make the CL final, but we took a long and winding road all the way to the semi's...

you cant expect to instantly cut 20 pts off the league leaders in one season, nor make the CL finals EVERY year.

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