Liverpool FC Forum

by **Redman in wales** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

john craig wrote:Can't believe some people want Pennant picked ahead of Babel or Kuyt for this game, it's crazy. Kuyt has performed really well in the CL, whatever else you may think about him. And we will be put under serious pressure against Chelsea away at times, and for that Babel is one of our best out-balls.

I see your point , and I do see both sides of the argument.

I feel that Kuyt is a definite start. However there are both advantages and disadvantages for Pennant vs Babel for the other wide role.

Pennant has been in good form of late, albeit against minor opposition, but did have a fairly good game against arsenal and has enjoyed playing against cole, leaving him for dust on many occasions in the past – and I really think he has the measure of him. And on the subject of games against Chelsea, one of his few goals in a Liverpool shirt has come against Chelsea.

Babel is a good ‘out’ – but I thick pennant can also provide that outlet – okay he is not as fast, but he does keep possession a lot better than babel.

One can always come on as a sub for the other if its not working out, but again I feel that babels pace coming into the game at 65 minutes would be even more of a bonus.

although the above arguments are leaning towards pennant, I can see both sides, but IMHO, if it were up to me… I’d put Kuyt on the left, Pennant on the right. Try that for 55/60 mins and if its not working bring babel on.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:49 pm

Redman in wales wrote:Babel is a good ‘out’ – but I thick pennant can also provide that outlet – okay he is not as fast, but he does keep possession a lot better than babel.

In these types of games though (Inter Milan both legs, Arsenal away, Chelsea home, Man U away, Blackburn first half) he hasn't proved to be a good 'out'. He's struggled in tight spaces, and can be pressured out of possession too easily. He's proven to be effective ad a good 'out' when he has space to run into - and against tired legs/minds/defenders who don't mark tight enough e.g. Arsenal home late on, Bolton away, Newcastle away.

This is my concern, but do we upset the 'cohesion' and 'fluency' this formation, and the personnel within this formation has (apparently) brought us?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:41 pm

Number 9 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Owzat wrote:To put Gerrard wide would be a waste, he's at least twice the goalscoring threat that Crouch is

we get it you don't rate Crouch. Why go OTT on your bias?

lets play you at your game shall we? lets used stats based on starts...Gerrard 44 starts, 21 goals works out at a goal every 2.09 game. Crouch 21 starts 11 goals works out a goal every 1.90 game. So obviously if Crouch starts he offers more of a goal threat.

If you think Crouch should start,who would you sacrifice out of the 5 midfielders Rafa usually starts?ie Babel on the left,Alonso and Mascherano in the middle,Kuyt on the right and Gerrard in his advanced role in the centre?

I pressume you are not so daft that you want Torres on the bench so id say you are talking of playing a 4-4-2 with Cruch alongside Torres.

And another thing how can you not see that since we have adopted the 4-2-3-1 it is the most balanced our team has been since Rafa took control.You may of course argue that but the results are power enough to counter any such debate.

So tell me where,when and how should Crouch play?
Or should be revert back to the 4-4-2 out of sentiment and pity or just for the reason you like Crouch?
For the record i rate Crouch quite highly,but Rafa has found a system that works and unfortunately for the big lad he is a casualty of its success.

If we stick with this 4-2-3-1 formation (which has picked results up of late...still not against the top sides, 3-0 defeat to united, two 1-1's with arsenal and a 1-1 with chelsea...only time we beat a top side this year was Arsenal at anfield in champions league 4-4-2 Crouch and Torres up front) but if we stick to the current formation then Crouch has to miss out obviously, but I can't see us keeping this formation from next year, certainly not on a regular basis and in a 4-4-2 system I'd rather see Crouch play up front and out of the five midfielders you listed (kuyt, babel, alonso, mascherano, gerrard) I'd plump for Alonso to miss out. I think Gerrard and Mascherano can do what Alonso and Mascherano are doing currently.

I just think that we play better with Crouch. Anybody who thinks we play long ball only when Crouch is on, must be blind, because we play more hopeful long balls up to Torres than we do Crouch. Ahead of the return leg against Arsenal, it was said Liverpool have played the most long balls out of any side left in the champions league (excluding qualifiers as well) So that was a number of eight games, Crouch had started in 2 of those games as well as 60 minutes off the bench. So are we really a long ball team just when Crouch plays? Not in a million years.

If Crouch and Torres started up front together on a more regular basis, I think we'd be a lot closer to winning the league. And those who don't rate Crouch and think he misses chances, well whoopty do, what forward doesn't? Those who say Crouch "only scores well against little sides" answer me this...who has Crouch scored his hattrick against and then answer me who has Torres scored his hattricks against? There's a huge difference between Arsenal and Middlesborough. This isn't a slate on Torres because I think he's world class, it's a slate on those fans who think Crouch isn't worthy of a place in the Liverpool side because he can only score against "Fulham and Birmingham" The fella is quality, and fully deserves to play for Liverpool Football Club.

Liverpool legend John Toshack who was a similar type of player to Crouch, wasn't exactly prolific. Here's a comparison between Crouch and Tosh in their first three years at Liverpool.

Toshack (1st season) 33 games 7 (4.7 goals games per goal)
Crouch (1st season) 49 games 13 goals (3.7 games per goal)

Toshack (2nd season) 34 games 13 goals (2.6 games per goal)
Crouch (2nd season) 49 games 18 goals (2.7 games per goal)

Toshack (3rd season) 40 games 17 goals (2.3 games per goal)
Crouch (3rd season) 36 games 11 goals (3.2 games per goal) so far (probably will improve)

You might be wondering what this proves, but what it proves is that given more games, Toshack scored more goals more reguarly. Also he played along side Keegan nearly every week. Obviously the quality of our side back then is a million times more than what we have now, but give Crouch the games with a settled partner (torres) we could easily be remembering years of old of Keegan and Toshack. Big man little man (although torres isn't keegan size)

by **Number 9** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:58 pm

Fair enough but i dont agree John i think Raffa will stick with 4-2-3-1 mate.I also think he should.You mention the fact that we still dont perform against the "big teams".I dont think thats anything to do with the formation,more so to do with they have more quality overall and we are a couple of world class players short of challenging them consistantly!

Our strong finish in the league in my opinion is solely to do with the change in formation.Since we adopted it we have been turning games we were drawing before into wins.Also we have been scoring more freely as Gerrard can get forward more and can create.Alonso and Masch in front of the defence has bolstered it and made the team more solid.

I do agree with you about Crouch he's a good player and given his chance he performs but as long as we are playing 4-2-3-1 there is no place for him in the starting 11!
And sorry you lost me on the Toshack/Keegan thingy!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:17 pm

Number 9 wrote:Fair enough but i dont agree John i think Raffa will stick with 4-2-3-1 mate.I also think he should.You mention the fact that we still dont perform against the "big teams".I dont think thats anything to do with the formation,more so to do with they have more quality overall and we are a couple of world class players short of challenging them consistantly!

Our strong finish in the league in my opinion is solely to do with the change in formation.Since we adopted it we have been turning games we were drawing before into wins.Also we have been scoring more freely as Gerrard can get forward more and can create.Alonso and Masch in front of the defence has bolstered it and made the team more solid.

I do agree with you about Crouch he's a good player and given his chance he performs but as long as we are playing 4-2-3-1 there is no place for him in the starting 11!
And sorry you lost me on the Toshack/Keegan thingy!

you won't get any arguement from me that the formation has picked up results. I suppose I can't really blame the formation for results against the big teams because we've failed to beat them in the 4-4-2 system as well in the past...BUT we've played 4-4-2 with Torres and Crouch up front against a top three side once and won. Maybe a fluke, but it does make me wonder that had those two played up front together on a regurlar basis, would we still be so far behind the league leaders.

I'm not to sure that this system gives Gerrard more freedom than he used to have, because since the new system (inter at home) Gerrard has scored six goals (1 pen) So it's not like he's scoring anymore freely than he used to. Fair enough in that time we've had Arsenal three times, Inter twice, United, Everton and Chelsea as well as a couple of games where Gerrard hasn't played/started. So maybe I'm being a little unfair on our skipper.

Keegan/Toshack...lost meself pal. I think the point I was making is, Toshack improved his goals to game ratio the more reguarlly he played, with a settled partner. If Benitez give Crouch more games alongside Torres, I think we'd see Crouch score even more than we have now.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:27 pm

I actually wonder if Rafa will go with Kuyt on the left to add a bit of defensive security over on that side, particularly if it is Riise that gets the nod over Arbeloa.

There's definitely value to having either Babel or Pennant as a late impact sub, and in European ties you have to admit that Babel has earned his wages in that role.

Whichever way you look at it, we're in a damn sight better position in terms of options than we have been for a while. I can think of about 4 or 5 different configurations of players for out wide, and I personally wouldn't be unhappy with any of them. Haven't been able to say that for years. Not quite the calibre of Ronaldo and Giggs I admit, but we do have effective options.

by **JC_81** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:34 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Fair enough but i dont agree John i think Raffa will stick with 4-2-3-1 mate.I also think he should.You mention the fact that we still dont perform against the "big teams".I dont think thats anything to do with the formation,more so to do with they have more quality overall and we are a couple of world class players short of challenging them consistantly!

Our strong finish in the league in my opinion is solely to do with the change in formation.Since we adopted it we have been turning games we were drawing before into wins.Also we have been scoring more freely as Gerrard can get forward more and can create.Alonso and Masch in front of the defence has bolstered it and made the team more solid.

I do agree with you about Crouch he's a good player and given his chance he performs but as long as we are playing 4-2-3-1 there is no place for him in the starting 11!
And sorry you lost me on the Toshack/Keegan thingy!

you won't get any arguement from me that the formation has picked up results. I suppose I can't really blame the formation for results against the big teams because we've failed to beat them in the 4-4-2 system as well in the past...BUT we've played 4-4-2 with Torres and Crouch up front against a top three side once and won. Maybe a fluke, but it does make me wonder that had those two played up front together on a regurlar basis, would we still be so far behind the league leaders.

I'm not to sure that this system gives Gerrard more freedom than he used to have, because since the new system (inter at home) Gerrard has scored six goals (1 pen) So it's not like he's scoring anymore freely than he used to. Fair enough in that time we've had Arsenal three times, Inter twice, United, Everton and Chelsea as well as a couple of games where Gerrard hasn't played/started. So maybe I'm being a little unfair on our skipper.

Keegan/Toshack...lost meself pal. I think the point I was making is, Toshack improved his goals to game ratio the more reguarlly he played, with a settled partner. If Benitez give Crouch more games alongside Torres, I think we'd see Crouch score even more than we have now.

GBJH - we get it you rate Crouch, but have a think about what you're suggesting in playing 442.

Yes Crouch would probably get goals in that formation alongside Torres, but look at the bigger picture. Not only would we be more likely to concede goals with one less holding midfielder, but Gerrard's attacking threat is diminished as he has more defensive responsibilities. Gerrard can't have the same attacking threat if we play two out-and-out strikers.

So it really comes down to - who is the bigger goal threat, Crouch or Gerrard? And who is more likely to score an important goal in a big game? The answer to both is Steven Gerrard. Even when Crouch played regularly, Gerrard still outscored him from right midfield. Therefore I say we stick to what is working, and that's Torres up front on his own with Gerrard supporting.

The only thing holding back our formation is a lack of attacking quality from wide positions, but the same was true when we played 4-4-2. The priority for this summer has to be to address this, as we have failed to do so far since Benitez took charge.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:35 pm

Benayoun, Ivor. If I saw him starting anywhere (especially out wide) I'd be disappointed.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:38 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Owzat wrote:I'll repeat for the zillionth time in not many weeks, why do people keep wanting to disrupt a winning formula? Especially based on performances against FULHAM and BRUM.

Could ask you the same question, really. Carragher and Skrtel handled Drogba nicely and Arberloa was decent at RB last week yet you want Carragher at RB and Arbeloa at LB tomorrow. Why are you so hell-bent on disrupting a winning formula?

different circumstances because Aurelio is hurt now, and the quesiton now become do you just stick in Riise and play the same system or is he mentally scarred from last week and we need to move Arbeloa to LB and if you do that you have two choices Finnan Carra Skrtel, or Carra Skrtel Hyypia. I think Carra Skrtel and Arbeloa are the only definates, and then you gotta pick 1/3 between Hyypia, Riise, and Finnan. But at the same time its not as simple as who is the best out of the three, the question is what combination of the entire back 4 is best for the team.

And early you proposed the idea of who is more likely to go missing at the bridge and the answer was Babel, which I agree. But I don't think that is a valid question considering the circumstances. Maybe if we were going in 1-0 up that would be a good question. But I think you need to flip it positive and ask who has the best chance of either creating OR scoring a goal, because that is going to be the task at hand, especially for the role we are talking about. I like Pennant more than almost anybody on the forum, and I think based on watching Rafa's interview where he said he is "considering two options" (options as in ideas for the team and not in deciding between two different players for one position) for the Chelsea match, that Pennant is in one of those options.
But as for the question of between Babel and Pennant, who has the best chance of either scoring OR creating a goal, I think its a toss up, and tie probably should go to consistency.

Also, if Rafa wants to include Crouch, that throws everything else out the window

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:12 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Benayoun, Ivor. If I saw him starting anywhere (especially out wide) I'd be disappointed.

I wouldn't mind in the slightest if he started on the left. I think he's down the pecking order as a wide player, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge him a game - he has done well recently. That's the beauty really - everybody has had decent games recently, and all four of the obvious options have all got goals in the last couple of weeks.

The more I think about it, the more I think either (or, for that matter, both) Pennant and Babel will be more valuable to us as impact subs than starters. Can you imagine it at 0-0 after a brutal hour, and both of those guys suddenly lining up on the flanks?

by **Reg** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:29 pm

Jeeeeeeeez you lads are suffering from cabin fever today.

Games not til tomorrow so suggest everyone goes for a long walk and gets some fresh air, these threads are way too intense.

by **Toffeehater** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:57 pm

john craig wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Fair enough but i dont agree John i think Raffa will stick with 4-2-3-1 mate.I also think he should.You mention the fact that we still dont perform against the "big teams".I dont think thats anything to do with the formation,more so to do with they have more quality overall and we are a couple of world class players short of challenging them consistantly!

Our strong finish in the league in my opinion is solely to do with the change in formation.Since we adopted it we have been turning games we were drawing before into wins.Also we have been scoring more freely as Gerrard can get forward more and can create.Alonso and Masch in front of the defence has bolstered it and made the team more solid.

I do agree with you about Crouch he's a good player and given his chance he performs but as long as we are playing 4-2-3-1 there is no place for him in the starting 11!
And sorry you lost me on the Toshack/Keegan thingy!

you won't get any arguement from me that the formation has picked up results. I suppose I can't really blame the formation for results against the big teams because we've failed to beat them in the 4-4-2 system as well in the past...BUT we've played 4-4-2 with Torres and Crouch up front against a top three side once and won. Maybe a fluke, but it does make me wonder that had those two played up front together on a regurlar basis, would we still be so far behind the league leaders.

I'm not to sure that this system gives Gerrard more freedom than he used to have, because since the new system (inter at home) Gerrard has scored six goals (1 pen) So it's not like he's scoring anymore freely than he used to. Fair enough in that time we've had Arsenal three times, Inter twice, United, Everton and Chelsea as well as a couple of games where Gerrard hasn't played/started. So maybe I'm being a little unfair on our skipper.

Keegan/Toshack...lost meself pal. I think the point I was making is, Toshack improved his goals to game ratio the more reguarlly he played, with a settled partner. If Benitez give Crouch more games alongside Torres, I think we'd see Crouch score even more than we have now.

GBJH - we get it you rate Crouch, but have a think about what you're suggesting in playing 442.

Yes Crouch would probably get goals in that formation alongside Torres, but look at the bigger picture. Not only would we be more likely to concede goals with one less holding midfielder, but Gerrard's attacking threat is diminished as he has more defensive responsibilities. Gerrard can't have the same attacking threat if we play two out-and-out strikers.

So it really comes down to - who is the bigger goal threat, Crouch or Gerrard? And who is more likely to score an important goal in a big game? The answer to both is Steven Gerrard. Even when Crouch played regularly, Gerrard still outscored him from right midfield. Therefore I say we stick to what is working, and that's Torres up front on his own with Gerrard supporting.

The only thing holding back our formation is a lack of attacking quality from wide positions, but the same was true when we played 4-4-2. The priority for this summer has to be to address this, as we have failed to do so far since Benitez took charge.

I can't believe i'm agreeing with GBJH , crouch should play he's one of the reason why we beat arsenal this season . back to the 4-4-2 with crouch up top wud give terry and carvalho alot more to handle then just torres alone

by **redmikey** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:13 pm

i'm am bais on this subject as i would like pennant to be picked first out of squad to face a firing squad and i don't mean the one's armed with a p45

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:24 pm

john craig wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Fair enough but i dont agree John i think Raffa will stick with 4-2-3-1 mate.I also think he should.You mention the fact that we still dont perform against the "big teams".I dont think thats anything to do with the formation,more so to do with they have more quality overall and we are a couple of world class players short of challenging them consistantly!

Our strong finish in the league in my opinion is solely to do with the change in formation.Since we adopted it we have been turning games we were drawing before into wins.Also we have been scoring more freely as Gerrard can get forward more and can create.Alonso and Masch in front of the defence has bolstered it and made the team more solid.

I do agree with you about Crouch he's a good player and given his chance he performs but as long as we are playing 4-2-3-1 there is no place for him in the starting 11!
And sorry you lost me on the Toshack/Keegan thingy!

you won't get any arguement from me that the formation has picked up results. I suppose I can't really blame the formation for results against the big teams because we've failed to beat them in the 4-4-2 system as well in the past...BUT we've played 4-4-2 with Torres and Crouch up front against a top three side once and won. Maybe a fluke, but it does make me wonder that had those two played up front together on a regurlar basis, would we still be so far behind the league leaders.

I'm not to sure that this system gives Gerrard more freedom than he used to have, because since the new system (inter at home) Gerrard has scored six goals (1 pen) So it's not like he's scoring anymore freely than he used to. Fair enough in that time we've had Arsenal three times, Inter twice, United, Everton and Chelsea as well as a couple of games where Gerrard hasn't played/started. So maybe I'm being a little unfair on our skipper.

Keegan/Toshack...lost meself pal. I think the point I was making is, Toshack improved his goals to game ratio the more reguarlly he played, with a settled partner. If Benitez give Crouch more games alongside Torres, I think we'd see Crouch score even more than we have now.

GBJH - we get it you rate Crouch, but have a think about what you're suggesting in playing 442.

Yes Crouch would probably get goals in that formation alongside Torres, but look at the bigger picture. Not only would we be more likely to concede goals with one less holding midfielder, but Gerrard's attacking threat is diminished as he has more defensive responsibilities. Gerrard can't have the same attacking threat if we play two out-and-out strikers.

So it really comes down to - who is the bigger goal threat, Crouch or Gerrard? And who is more likely to score an important goal in a big game? The answer to both is Steven Gerrard. Even when Crouch played regularly, Gerrard still outscored him from right midfield. Therefore I say we stick to what is working, and that's Torres up front on his own with Gerrard supporting.

The only thing holding back our formation is a lack of attacking quality from wide positions, but the same was true when we played 4-4-2. The priority for this summer has to be to address this, as we have failed to do so far since Benitez took charge.

well to put it bluntly, Steven Gerrard is world class and will score from wherever you play him. We don't lose a holding midfielder because Gerrard throughout his career (club and country) he's proven he's as good as anybody at sitting deep as well. We don't lose Gerrard's goals because earlier in the season when we played 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the centre of the park Gerrard scored 15 goals in all competitions. He's got a further six since he's been playing behind Torres. But 15 goals from central midfield up to mid feburary isn't bad going, so I don't see how people say we'd miss his goals by putting him in a 4-4-2. Also he's more likely to score more with Crouch up front than Kuyt, because Crouch is the best forward we have of bringing others into play (i include torres in that, because his link up play needs alot of work)

The whole problem with 4-4-2 earlier in the season was it either Kuyt or Voronin who Crouch or Torres were paired with. Put Torres and Crouch up front together, and we'd be a lot better off than we are now IMO.

by **Redman in wales** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:56 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:Babel is a good ‘out’ – but I thick pennant can also provide that outlet – okay he is not as fast, but he does keep possession a lot better than babel.

In these types of games though (Inter Milan both legs, Arsenal away, Chelsea home, Man U away, Blackburn first half) he hasn't proved to be a good 'out'. He's struggled in tight spaces, and can be pressured out of possession too easily. He's proven to be effective ad a good 'out' when he has space to run into - and against tired legs/minds/defenders who don't mark tight enough e.g. Arsenal home late on, Bolton away, Newcastle away.

This is my concern, but do we upset the 'cohesion' and 'fluency' this formation, and the personnel within this formation has (apparently) brought us?

I agree that Babel struggles under pressure more than pennant... only when there's space does babel become dangerous.

another thing to note 6 out babels 9 goals have come from him coming on as a sub, his only goals from starts were against Bolton, Luton and Derby. - I think Babel is much more effective as a sub. - and personally I would be willing to risk the cohesion, as I believe it would be for the good of the team.

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