Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:33 pm

dawson99 wrote:the fatc as i see it is that altho we are obviously improving as a team we dont seem to have am anager who has the premiership title as his priority. Rafa is the man for us, dont get me wrong, but he needs to get his priorities right before we really see the progresion

In the interests of keeping the other thread on topic, I've raised this issue again here, Daws. What I'm really looking for is clarification. Do you truly believe that Rafa doesn't "care" about winning the league or do you just think the methods he employs to do so are flawed?

It's a key distinction, IMO.

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:40 pm

It's fúcking amazing how some people hear "he doesn't care to win the premiership" and then repeat it like a parrot until the point they believe is true. They seem to be able to enter Rafa's mind and read it as a book, ignoring all the facts that suggest the opposite:

If it's not for the league, he's won everything it's worth winning, the FA cup, and the Champions league. He has rejected an offer from his team Real Madrid, and he doesn't resign despite all the :censored:

written about him and the worst behaviour imaginable from the board with the Klinssman thing.

He does that, because he wants to win the league here. He has said so, all the facts indicate he wants the league for those fans who support the team week in week out, and Rafa will try to bring that achievement sooner rather than later. But suggesting he doesn't care? Based on what do people say that? I mean, decent-understandable-not laughable reasons?

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:40 pm

i dont think he doesnt care about it, it just seems from ive seen and heard him say hes happy to have his players on full blast for the end of season cup runs, rather than stabalise a decent run in the league. how is it we can beat the best in europe but struggle against the mediocrity of the premier league? i just want us to win the CL this year so next year he will concentrate 110% on the PL, thats just how i see it, may well be wrong but i know a lot of people who agree with me.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:08 pm

dawson99 wrote:i dont think he doesnt care about it, it just seems from ive seen and heard him say hes happy to have his players on full blast for the end of season cup runs, rather than stabalise a decent run in the league. how is it we can beat the best in europe but struggle against the mediocrity of the premier league? i just want us to win the CL this year so next year he will concentrate 110% on the PL, thats just how i see it, may well be wrong but i know a lot of people who agree with me.

Dawson, it won't matter if he wins the CL or not, mate, because he'll still be going for it again next year. Why? Because it's not either/or with Rafa, it's both. He rests players, not just for cup runs, but for league run-ins as well. He's said so...repeatedly. The fact that it hasn't come off yet doesn't mean he's not prioritizing it.

Here's a different take on this issue. Our worst run of form this season was in January when we weren't involved in the Champions League at all. So, failure to perform in the league is not directly correlated to success in the Champions League. In fact, if anything, success in the Champions League this season has coincided with success in the league, whilst our struggles early in the group stages coincided with indifferent form in the league:

1) In August we beat Toulouse in both qualifiers and went undefeated in the league

2) In September/October we managed a draw and two losses in Europe while racking up 3 wins and 4 disappointing draws in the league

3) In November/early December we bounced back with three big wins in Europe. In the league we were on a very nice run of form (3-1-0 and with a GD of +9) until the Reading match

4) In February/March our wins over Inter coincided with the start of our great run in the league (7-1-1)

5) In April we've continued our strong form in the league whilst drawing with and then beating Arsenal in Europe

So, quite how Rafa has been prioritizing Europe at the expense of our league form this year is beyond me.

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:12 pm

we just seemed out of contention as we do every year, and rafa has dasre i say gloated, stating how the players are raring to go later on... we just seem almost like a cup team nowadays.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:40 pm

dawson99 wrote:we just seemed out of contention as we do every year, and rafa has dasre i say gloated, stating how the players are raring to go later on... we just seem almost like a cup team nowadays.

Gloated? How's that?

Look, mate, it's alright to be p!ssed off that we failed to mount a challenge again. I'm bl.oody disappointed too. I just think there's no evidence to suggest that Rafa doesn't care about the league and thus it's unfair to accuse him of indifference. Frankly, it's a lazy argument to make.

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:51 pm

ok bad bob, show me how we have done first 10 games of seasnos since he came, how much weve swapped players and tried to settle in due to buying too many mediocre players.. just that my 'lazy arguament' is there because facts show that we dont perform early on when it matetrs in the league

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:03 pm

dawson99 wrote:ok bad bob, show me how we have done first 10 games of seasnos since he came, how much weve swapped players and tried to settle in due to buying too many mediocre players.. just that my 'lazy arguament' is there because facts show that we dont perform early on when it matetrs in the league

You misunderstand, mate. You're right to say we haven't performed well early doors in the league under Rafa (this past season being our best start under him but still not good enough). But that doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't care about the league. You (and several others) are turning a criticism about his methods into a criticism about his desire which is, IMO, both completely wrong and rather lazy. Clearly you think his rotation policy and his transfer policy are flawed and have cost us the opportunity to get off to good starts in the league. Those are valid questions worthy of discussion. But, just because you don't endorse these methods doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't employ them in good faith, with conviction that they will bring us success.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:04 pm

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:The alternative is getting in someone who will use the next 3-5 years re-building.

I must say that this in my view is one of the great urban myths, and I say this as somebody who is a recent convert to the idea of Rafa staying for a while yet.

To me, all this about if Rafa goes it'll "set us back ten years" is about as sensible as some of Rafa's staunchest supporters assuming that anybody who dares to criticise him wants Sam Allardyce as manager, or that all the players will immediately hand in transfer requests if he leaves.

Look if Rafa were to go (and none of this post applies if he goes because of Hicks, in that scenario I agree we are fecked choose whoever comes in) then the new manager wouldn't need to rebuild. He would sign a couple of players for sure (so will Rafa) but the idea that he would rip the whole thing apart and start again is nonsense in my view. Whoever came in, be it Sam Allardyce or GBJH is already in the Champions League next season, and my guess is we'll get out of the group at least and get into the last sixteen. I would also venture that unless you get a complete numpty in, provided we keep Gerrard, Masherano and Torres we will almost certainly finish in the top four as well. In so doing we would qualify for the group stages again, probably get out of the group etc etc and so on.

No as I've said before, coming in the top four in the league and then getting out of the group in the Champions League should be achieveable for any manager at Liverpool without too many problems. NO rebuilding required to achieve that.

Mick it may be your opinion that rebuilding would not be required if Rafa were to leave and a new manager turn up, but without doubt we'd be told by said new manager that he has a 3-5 year plan, and HE may just feel that ripping the team up is a must. Any new manager would find some players surplus to requirements, some players he just does not get on with, and there certainly would also be, like it or not, some players who choose to leave, either because they don't like the new manager, prefer to go with Rafa, feel the Club is going nowhere or that 3-5 years will almost certainly coincide with the end of their career.

IMO the assertion that reaching the top Four, (CL Football) is a given for any Liverpool manager is nonsense. For example in Rafas first year we only achieved fifth, and i think even you concede at the very least he is a good manager, had we not been allowed special dispensation that year how much weaker would that have made our squad? and how much closer to us would the teams beneath us be? because the additional millions we earnt would not have been there had we played in the Uefa cup. There are teams with at least as much money as us who are waiting in the wings to get into the top four, Spurs, Villa, City, Newcastle, if they got in one year they'd attract the CL players they can't now, what chance us or whoever fell out of the top four regaining it then? The fact is the first bit is hard enough, let alone just having to win a few home games in Europe, for any manager. Naa its not that easy.

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:12 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
dawson99 wrote:ok bad bob, show me how we have done first 10 games of seasnos since he came, how much weve swapped players and tried to settle in due to buying too many mediocre players.. just that my 'lazy arguament' is there because facts show that we dont perform early on when it matetrs in the league

You misunderstand, mate. You're right to say we haven't performed well early doors in the league under Rafa (this past season being our best start under him but still not good enough). But that doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't care about the league. You (and several others) are turning a criticism about his methods into a criticism about his desire which is, IMO, both completely wrong and rather lazy. Clearly you think his rotation policy and his transfer policy are flawed and have cost us the opportunity to get off to good starts in the league. Those are valid questions worthy of discussion. But, just because you don't endorse these methods doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't employ them in good faith, with conviction that they will bring us success.

well if you think my opinion is 'lazy', where are the facts about your oh so better opinion? because judging by league standings my point seems slightly more valid than your blind faith

by **redtrader74** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:35 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
dawson99 wrote:ok bad bob, show me how we have done first 10 games of seasnos since he came, how much weve swapped players and tried to settle in due to buying too many mediocre players.. just that my 'lazy arguament' is there because facts show that we dont perform early on when it matetrs in the league

You misunderstand, mate. You're right to say we haven't performed well early doors in the league under Rafa (this past season being our best start under him but still not good enough). But that doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't care about the league. You (and several others) are turning a criticism about his methods into a criticism about his desire which is, IMO, both completely wrong and rather lazy. Clearly you think his rotation policy and his transfer policy are flawed and have cost us the opportunity to get off to good starts in the league. Those are valid questions worthy of discussion. But, just because you don't endorse these methods doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't employ them in good faith, with conviction that they will bring us success.

well if you think my opinion is 'lazy', where are the facts about your oh so better opinion? because judging by league standings my point seems slightly more valid than your blind faith

Just because you fail to win a race it doesn't mean you didn't want to win it. In fact its bollox to even think for one second that Rafa does not want to win the League, especially as he knows how much it would mean to the fans, and how it would cement his place at the Cloob. We can and havehad a discussion on his methods, but its all irrelevant if people really do think he actually doesn't want to win the title or even places it distant second behind Europe.

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:40 pm

im not saying he doesnt want to win it (well i am, but not what i meant) but he seems to want to keep people fresh for the end of the season too much for the cups and it always ends up that by november we are already out of it and scrapping for 4th with teams like neverton. we are better than that. we need to focus on the league more, thats all i think

by **redtrader74** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:49 pm

dawson99 wrote:im not saying he doesnt want to win it (well i am, but not what i meant) but he seems to want to keep people fresh for the end of the season too much for the cups and it always ends up that by november we are already out of it and scrapping for 4th with teams like neverton. we are better than that. we need to focus on the league more, thats all i think

Unfortunatly we can't afford to put all our eggs in one basket, the situation being such that the debts on the Club need paying, and the difference between finishing fourth or first in the prem is a matter of a couple of months of SG's pay, yet getting to the latter stages of Europe is what would pay for another Torres. The pressure to succeed in the CL i guess is massive right now from the board, infact rumours ( i know i shouldn't ) suggested that had we not got past Marseille, Rafa was out. Rafa just has to do well in Europe each year to get that extra money, IMO he'd be nearer the exit door if he finished 2nd in the league and was knocked out the CL early, than the current position.

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:00 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
dawson99 wrote:im not saying he doesnt want to win it (well i am, but not what i meant) but he seems to want to keep people fresh for the end of the season too much for the cups and it always ends up that by november we are already out of it and scrapping for 4th with teams like neverton. we are better than that. we need to focus on the league more, thats all i think

Unfortunatly we can't afford to put all our eggs in one basket, the situation being such that the debts on the Club need paying, and the difference between finishing fourth or first in the prem is a matter of a couple of months of SG's pay, yet getting to the latter stages of Europe is what would pay for another Torres. The pressure to succeed in the CL i guess is massive right now from the board, infact rumours ( i know i shouldn't ) suggested that had we not got past Marseille, Rafa was out. Rafa just has to do well in Europe each year to get that extra money, IMO he'd be nearer the exit door if he finished 2nd in the league and was knocked out the CL early, than the current position.

what would u prefer tho? CL semis or second in league pushing for 1st?
and wed have money if we stopepd buying so many fecking mediocre players. why spend whatever on bellamy pennant and kuyt when we could lump the lot on villa or someone class

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:04 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
dawson99 wrote:ok bad bob, show me how we have done first 10 games of seasnos since he came, how much weve swapped players and tried to settle in due to buying too many mediocre players.. just that my 'lazy arguament' is there because facts show that we dont perform early on when it matetrs in the league

You misunderstand, mate. You're right to say we haven't performed well early doors in the league under Rafa (this past season being our best start under him but still not good enough). But that doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't care about the league. You (and several others) are turning a criticism about his methods into a criticism about his desire which is, IMO, both completely wrong and rather lazy. Clearly you think his rotation policy and his transfer policy are flawed and have cost us the opportunity to get off to good starts in the league. Those are valid questions worthy of discussion. But, just because you don't endorse these methods doesn't mean that Rafa doesn't employ them in good faith, with conviction that they will bring us success.

well if you think my opinion is 'lazy', where are the facts about your oh so better opinion? because judging by league standings my point seems slightly more valid than your blind faith

Alright, for the last time: it's lazy because it assumes that there is a lack of intent based on disappointing results. If we don't mount a challenge for the title but do well in the CL it's the easiest thing in the world to say that it's due to the fact that Rafa doesn't care about the league. But there's nothing to substantiate that claim. It's the same when people say that Gerrard can't be a.rsed when he has a poor game or (before the formation switch) that Kuyt's afraid to miss scoring opportunities and so spends all of his time running around in midfield and out on the flanks. The fact is, we know Rafa is a fierce competitor from everything he says. We know that he truly, honestly believes that his method will deliver the title and we know that he feels the pressure from supporters to mount a challenge. So, IMO, it does the man a great disservice to suggest that he can't be bothered about winning the league. If you think otherwise then we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid, because this discussion is going in circles.

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