Liverpool FC Forum

by **PhiLFC** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:09 pm

Great article in the Daily Mirror by a Mirror columnist last week:

3 games when Wenger myths were exposed
Brian Reade 12/04/2008

Arsene Wenger reckoned those three games with Liverpool would produce a moment of truth for his team.

But when the truth was delivered he tried to swat it away with a lie. An embarrassing one at that. Blaming the referee for the 4-2 Anfield defeat was a lamentable diversionary tactic. Wenger failed in Europe once again because his squad wasn't strong enough and his leadership wasn't good enough.

A few myths were shattered in those three meetings about a team whose free-flowing football is hailed as the best in the land. Easy on the eye it undoubtedly is. But you don't win games by adding up the passes and you don't win trophies without a killer's mentality.

In the two games at the Emirates, Arsenal failed to score from open play and at Anfield Pepe Reina was hardly tested outside the two goals. Over the two European ties the Gunners threw away a leading position three times. Each time, very cheaply.

Wenger has clearly needed to dip into his £60million war chest but refused to on the grounds it might upset the balance of a team of kids who were developing together. Another myth. Most aren't kids anymore. The average age of the starting line-up at Anfield was 25.

The Frenchman's real moment of truth will come tomorrow if he fails to beat Manchester United, meaning his trophy haul these past four years comprises one FA Cup. Benitez can match his FA Cup over the same period, throw in a European Cup and possibly add a second one next month. So how come Wenger is perceived in this country as one of the great managers of modern times yet Benitez is consistently derided?

The Spaniard recently masterminded wins home and away against Italian league leaders Inter Milan. Wenger beat their ageing Milan rivals (who lie 20 points behind them) in the San Siro but failed to do so at the Emirates. Yet whose achievement had English football in raptures? Wenger's of course.

The Arsenal boss rested five first-team regulars against Liverpool last Saturday to keep them fresh for Europe. It cost them the points which probably cost him the title but no one said a peep. When Benitez did that earlier in the season he was slaughtered for being a Tinkerman.

Liverpool clawed their way back into Wednesday's game via Sami Hyypia's free header at a corner, yet no one pointed out the deficiencies of Wenger's man-to-man marking system. Whenever Liverpool concede from a set-piece, Benitez is savaged for employing zonal marking.

Maybe it's time Benitez's legion of critics within football (and Anfield) faced their own moment of truth, and admitted he is not in his third Champions League semi-final in four years because he has pact with the devil, but because he is one of the modern game's great coaches, whose only failing in top-flight management has been an inability thus far to deliver the Premier League title to Anfield.

Maybe they should accept he's been up against clubs like Chelsea and United these past four seasons, with far greater resources, and recall it took Alex Ferguson seven years to win his first title.

Maybe, now the blood is drenching the boardroom carpets, they will realise civil war has been raging at Anfield all season, and Benitez has been caught in the middle. His mental health publicly questioned, judgments undermined, spending ridiculed and forward planning sabotaged. They even admitted to actively seeking his replacement.

Yet his reserve side has just walked the northern section of the Premier Reserve League league, he stands on the brink of a Champions League Final and qualification for next season's competition. I'm sure his many critics will dismiss it as a fluke. Just like his two La Liga titles and UEFA Cup wins were at Sevilla.

What did Gary Player once say about being lucky. The more he practised the luckier he became. In the biggest club competition in the world Rafa keeps getting plenty of practice.

Maybe one day he'll get lucky, unlike Wenger, and win it. Oh . . he already has.

by **cpc4eva** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:15 pm

s@int wrote:Phil Thompson went over to Portugal to watch Ronaldo and was reported to have said, " he is not what we are looking for."

Admittedly at the time we were looking for first team players not players with potential, but even so.......

The mancs then failed in their bid to sign Ronaldhino and switched targets, the price rocketed and we lost interest.

so big nose thommo overlooks the next keegan or owen or king kenny at 4million what was he thinking

and look how that has ended up -

gay boy has scored at will and is the key to back to back titles for manure

and ronaldhino has turned into an aboriginal and gone walk about

by **cpc4eva** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:20 pm

great article there thanks for posting phil fc

by **Sabre** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 pm

2 years ago a friend gifted me a book because "I like english football". It was called "The Boss", and it was about Alex Ferguson. My friend didn't know I hate him, but I didn't tell her anything for courtesy.

Thing is, that I have read the book with the hope of learning something indirectly about Liverpool Football Club, and I did it.

Lesson a) Why Ferguson hates us.

At some point Ferguson praised our crowd highly. His hate against Liverpool came after a humilliating defeat in Anfield (4-0, 1980, European cup and because the attitude of Liverpool players when he was assistant of the Scottish national side, from the book

When Ferguson asked for advice on how to counter the threat of their Liverpool teammate Ian Rush, neither Kenny Dalglish nor Alan Hansen nor the midfielder Steve Nicol would say anything very helpful. This was in complete contrast to Arthur Albiston, who was happy to advise his fellow Scots on how to handle Manchester United colleague Mark Hugues.

When Stein and Ferguson raised the matter later with Souness, Souness explained it was the Liverpool version of Omerta -- say nothing about anything

This is when he started to hate us, not related to the Rafa point I will make now, but I loved to read it

Lesson 2: Ferguson also received stick when in his fourth year he wasn't winning the premiership for Manchester United

Read, it's fun

One fan, Pete Molyneux, created a banner from a bed sheet, with the stark message "3 YEARS OF EXCUSES AND IT'S STILL ... TARA FERGIE"

As you can see in 1989 the "excuses" arguement also was wielded for most impatient united fans. :;):

, 25 years wating were too much. A classic.

Like Rafa, Ferguson also had a legion of players and ex players giving opinions about his job

"It's becoming obvious he's not the man for United" said his former Aberdeen striker Joe Harper, "the club and the job are too big for him". Brian Clough said that he himself should have been made United's manager years ago, while the former Liverpool captain Emlyn Hughes had already awarded Ferguson the OBE -- Out Before Easter

So you can conclude that Ferguson also had the Hansens and the Grays giving stick, and that not only Sabre fails blatantly in his predictions, great pundits and players also do

Lesson 3: Under these circunstances you have to be stubborn and belief in what you're doing

Ferguson said

"No, don't worry, I'll win the league, it will just take longer than I thought".

Our Rafa is also confident. The difference is that Ferguson didn't have a CL cup, another CL final, and a FA cup when he was asking for more time his fourth season. But we ask Rafa "is that enough?"

Well, Ferguson got away of dead man walking-esque articles, pundits that said he was out, and only had a FA cup to justify his work in 4 years:

United FA Cup run disguised the fact that their league results had barely improved in the second half of te 1989-1990 season. They had eleven league games without a win between November and February -- their worst run for eighteen years. though long term injuries to Robson and Webb hadn't helped. Their final league position, 13th, was United's lowest placing since relegation in 1974.

So he also had bliiiiiiips, a 13th position in the league (Rafa's never been that low), and injuries to cope with.

But they had the patience with him, with just an FA cup in 4 years.

Lesson 4: Same old arguements are used 20 years later

The world wasn't convinced that Ferguson could translate his FA cup triumph into inmediate league success. The reality was that Manchester United were still only a good cup-winning side, able to rise to the occasion in knockout ties, but unable to find the needed consistency to win the league

Nowadays we have the classic "We're only good in Europe and cups". Pretty much the same thing.

I cannot find the quotes right now in the book, but the reasons to explain all these, ironically were that Ferguson "changed the team too much", which was the closest thing to rotation they had those days

So reading all this about Ferguson, you have to ask yourself "are we patient enough?". The arch enemy board knew to be patient with Ferguson. He only needed time, and money, only when he started to buy the likes of Cantona, and products from the youth system like Giggs came into the first team he was able to win the premiership.

We're too impatient sometimes. It's obvious to me that Rafa is strenghtening little by little the squad (Mascherano, Torres), in very key positions. We just need he gets spot on the wing men. And he's been provided with the money to do this kind of signings only very recently.

Give him time, FFS, he's got more silverware than this envious - non forgiving red nosed cúnt.

ARE WE PATIENT ENOUGH?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:41 pm

I think a lot of people are getting carried away with our recent form tbh. We have beaten non of the top 3 sides in the league home or away.(the cup is different and always has been under Rafa) obtaining 4 points out of a possible 18, and scoring 3 goals whilst conceeding 7. While it is possible to win the league without winning against your rivals it certainly makes it much more difficult.

Until we start to convert some of these draws and narrow defeats into wins I think we are going to struggle to make a genuine challenge.

I think we have made progress in that we have a better team, but we have made little real progress against our rivals as they also have improved. Unless Rafa gets his transfer targets right in the summer I think we may see a set back as big as after the summer 2006 when he got most if not all his transfers wrong and we slipped back badly against our rivals.

This is of course compounded by the problems of planning for the summer market when his own job, the amount of money available and who arranges the transfers are all open to question.

by **kazza** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:04 pm

Sabre wrote:Lesson 2: Ferguson also received stick when in his fourth year he wasn't winning the premiership for Manchester United

My brother went to see Liverpool at Crystal Palace and the Liverpool fans were singing "your going down with United" :laugh:

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:05 pm

Ask yourself, are Liverpool F.C. capable of scoring three or four goals past any of the top sides and winning a match against those team convincingly?

The answer is clearly no.

Can the other top teams do that to us? The answer is they have, numourous times.

We aren't as good as the top three, not even close. We're at least two or three first team players away from being able to challenge.

by **Thingy** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:08 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Ask yourself, are Liverpool F.C. capable of scoring three or four goals past any of the top sides and winning a match against those team convincingly?

The answer is clearly no.

Can the other top teams do that to us? The answer is they have, numourous times.

We aren't as good as the top three, not even close. We're at least two or three first team players away from being able to challenge.

We put 4 past Arsenal

. Nah mate your right though we dont score hardly ever against the big teams. Okay we got one each game agaisnt Arsenal this year but there the team we usually do well against out of the rest, we havent scored against United in the league since Rafas first season if my memory serves me right.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:09 pm

duk wrote:
How far have we progressed? Well we're no closer to winning the league,

bo-lax my friend

we've lost the same number as th mancs this season, too many draws but we aint losin very often

We've lost the same amount as games as United...so what? Does this somehow excuse us from criticism? "oh its alright lads, it's alright we're 14 points behind United because we've lost the same amount of games as them" is that what Benitez should be telling the players? If that's what you think, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

We're no closer to winning the league. Next season will be the same (although I expect us to win the league because I do every year) because we still won't be consistant enough or have a good enough squad to compete. I can see the yanks throwing Benitez a maximum of 30 million next year, so he won't be able to sign the likes of David Villa and Queresma. That's not to say he can't buy world stars though, Danny Agger cost 5 million, Reina 7 and Alonso 14, but he won't be able to bring in 3 players of 15 million or more IMO. Also before people think I'm jumping ship here, I'm not using this as an excuse and won't be using it as an excuse for why we failed again next season, I'm just simply pointing out that I wouldn't get overexcited with the prospect of Villa, Queresma, Ronaldinho, Raffinha and any other so called world star because we might get one if we're lucky. Next season will be another "rebuilding" season, while we look for new investors because I can't see the yanks leaving anytime soon.

by **kazza** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:20 pm

Fo Dne wrote:We aren't as good as the top three, not even close. We're at least two or three first team players away from being able to challenge.

A few years ago we were six players away. Last year we needed four players to challenge and this year we are two players away.

That is progression and we are not that far away, maybe a summer spending spree. That in spite of how much Utd spend which you know they will.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:27 pm

kazza wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:We aren't as good as the top three, not even close. We're at least two or three first team players away from being able to challenge.

A few years ago we were six players away. Last year we needed four players to challenge and this year we are two players away.

That is progression and we are not that far away, maybe a summer spending spree. That in spite of how much Utd spend which you know they will.

it's not only players we're behind the other teams though. we're behind them in simple consistantcy and in my eyes togetherness. I don't know if there is any truth in the stories, but there does seem to be rifts amongst our players alot more than the other clubs. I think it's more than just particular player ability that we're behind.

by **Thingy** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:31 pm

Off the field where way behind too. Stadium wise, United and Arsenal have a much better stadium, as much as Anfield is what it is if we gunna compete we need a stadium reeking in the profits like it has for Arsenal recently. Money wise, behind again. Merchandise wise again although that p.rick Hicks said it this week its true we havent hit it off in that department either.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:36 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Ask yourself, are Liverpool F.C. capable of scoring three or four goals past any of the top sides and winning a match against those team convincingly?

Liverpool 4 - 2 Arsenal

Fo Dne wrote:Can the other top teams do that to us? The answer is they have, numourous times.

When ?

This season:

Sunday, 13 April 2008
Man Utd 2-1 Arsenal

Saturday, 05 April 2008
Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool

Sunday, 23 March 2008
Chelsea 2-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 3-0 Liverpool

Sunday, 10 February 2008
Chelsea 0-0 Liverpool

Sunday, 16 December 2007
Arsenal 1-0 Chelsea
Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd

Saturday, 03 November 2007
Arsenal 2-2 Man Utd

Sunday, 28 October 2007
Liverpool 1-1 Arsenal

Sunday, 23 September 2007
Man Utd 2-0 Chelsea

Sunday, 19 August 2007
Liverpool 1-1 Chelsea

So only twice has it happened this season that a team has won by mroe than one goal.

by **JBG** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:41 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Still a few games to go, but heres where I see us at:

Three draws that could/should have been wins, (Wigan (h), Man City (a) and Birmingham (h) are three I would suggest where close enough) and a better reflection of the games against United and Chelsea at home (we outplayed both teams by a mile, would have beaten Chelse but for the ref and should have gotten a draw against United) would yeild us 9 points, whilst deducting one from Chelsea and two from United. The table would then look like this:

P W D L F A GD Pts
1 Manchester United 34 24 6 4 72 18 53 78
2 Liverpool 34 22 13 3 60 26 34 75
3 Chelsea 33 22 7 4 58 23 35 73
4 Arsenal 34 20 11 3 64 29 35 71

These changes in results may well have been by not rotating, although an easier way would be the addition of two TOP QUALITY players would have seen us get those points.

Point being, not as far away as some might have us think.

Hold on, we didn't completely outplay UTD at Anfield. Maybe we had more possession in that game, but we didn't really deserve a win.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:49 pm

JBG wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Still a few games to go, but heres where I see us at:

Three draws that could/should have been wins, (Wigan (h), Man City (a) and Birmingham (h) are three I would suggest where close enough) and a better reflection of the games against United and Chelsea at home (we outplayed both teams by a mile, would have beaten Chelse but for the ref and should have gotten a draw against United) would yeild us 9 points, whilst deducting one from Chelsea and two from United. The table would then look like this:

P W D L F A GD Pts
1 Manchester United 34 24 6 4 72 18 53 78
2 Liverpool 34 22 13 3 60 26 34 75
3 Chelsea 33 22 7 4 58 23 35 73
4 Arsenal 34 20 11 3 64 29 35 71

These changes in results may well have been by not rotating, although an easier way would be the addition of two TOP QUALITY players would have seen us get those points.

Point being, not as far away as some might have us think.

point being we drew or lost those games.

I'm sure Derby fans are saying if we won every game we'd of won the league. So what if we "should" of won, the point is we didn't, so we are a long way off. Does that table include United beating Bolton, West Ham and Man City because they "should of won" Does it include Arsenal beating us at Anfield because "they outplayed us and deserved to win". I take it the table doesn't show those results, so it's really pathetic for you to even suggest that.

Liverpool FC Forum

Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Who is online