Liverpool FC Forum

by **Thingy** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:22 am

Id keep Pennant , but only as cover if we get a world class right winger. If he's willing to be second choice and fight for his place, keeping the new winger on his toes to perform, then it would benefit the team. Oh and GBJH, Makelele did score once for Chelsea, albeit a penalty in I think the last home game of that season, they let him take it as a joke because he hadnt scored for them. He missed the pen but followed up the rebound

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:33 am

Thingy wrote:Oh and GBJH, Makelele did score once for Chelsea, albeit a penalty in I think the last home game of that season, they let him take it as a joke because he hadnt scored for them. He missed the pen but followed up the rebound

I know mate. I made the same point. It was against Bolton. Lampard also scored in a 2-0 win in which they won the league.

by **Thingy** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:38 am

I said it mate cos your comparing Masch to Flamini, Essien ect saying he hasnt scored yet. Makalele only has one more, and a lucky one at that, and no one says should be scoring 5 or so a season.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:47 am

Thingy wrote:I said it mate cos your comparing Masch to Flamini, Essien ect saying he hasnt scored yet. Makalele only has one more, and a lucky one at that, and no one says should be scoring 5 or so a season.

I'm not saying Mascheranho has to score five a season, I am saying however, if people are going to whinge about Pennant's lack of goals by comparing him to other right wingers in the game, then the same must be said about other players and compared to other defensive minded midfielders, Mascheranho's goal tally isn't up there.

If Penannt scored more than Mascheranho's lack of goals wouldn't worry me so much, but for a world class player he has to score more.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:47 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Thingy wrote:I said it mate cos your comparing Masch to Flamini, Essien ect saying he hasnt scored yet. Makalele only has one more, and a lucky one at that, and no one says should be scoring 5 or so a season.

I'm not saying Mascheranho has to score five a season, I am saying however, if people are going to whinge about Pennant's lack of goals by comparing him to other right wingers in the game, then the same must be said about other players and compared to other defensive minded midfielders, Mascheranho's goal tally isn't up there.

If Penannt scored more than Mascheranho's lack of goals wouldn't worry me so much, but for a world class player he has to score more.

Read what's already been posted, it explains this clearly.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:55 am

It doesn't explain clearly. People are very happy to bemoan the fact Penannt has only 1 goal to his name this season but ignore the fact that others haven't even that. I think Mascheranho is brilliant at what he does, but for a world class player he has to score. Considering he's had chances as well. He's done it for Argentina, so he must do it for club as well. Likewise Pennant must score more, but his lack of goals doesn't exclude Mascheranho or anybody else from not scoring either.

If we want to go further back, Graeme Souness was a similar type of player to Mascheranho (a better version of Mascheranho if truth be told) he always waded in with 7-10 goals a season. Roy Keane scored his fair share. Patrick Viera scored a fair few. All who were playing in sides where their wingers scored as well. Maybe what we need is for Pennant to score 10 a season then Mascheranho will score his five.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:00 am

Dear me.

by **Thingy** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:02 am

Pennant hasnt scored that many goals wherever he's played. Mascherano is a defensive midfielder, JP is a attacking one. Yes i understand what your sayin mate but he dosent score enough for an ATTACKING midfielder. He dosent create enough either, but there is some potential there. Its a tough one. In my opinion not first choice material yet, and im not too sure he ever will be.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:06 am

I'm not saying I want Mascheranho to be the top scorer, but he has to wade in, just because the rest of his game is ideal doesn't mean he's above criticism. The only way to win a football match is by scoring goals. We need more goals from all positions, not just right wing and not just defensive midfielders.

Our forwards could do with banging in a few more, as could our wide players, as could our defensive minded players. We've lost points because we can't score so often this season. If Pennant/Kewell/Alonso/Mascheranho chipped in with a few more, maybe we wouldn't be 9 points off the top.

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:08 am

No, adding Masherano into the Pennant debate isn't credible John TBPH. I think once we have three central midfielders in the same match as we have at the moment, its entirely sensible to expect either alonso or Masherano to get more involved in the play and hopefully score a goal or two. Much of the time this season though Masherano has played alongside Gerrard ina central two, and given the fact that the captain plays just about the most advanced as any midfielder in the Premiership I don't think we can realistically expect Masherano to be holding midfielder, Gerrard coverer and regular scorer. He's good but he isn't that good and I'm not sure anybody is.

As for Pennant, unlike Masherano he plays in a position from which comparable players score goals. Ronaldo, Cole, Hleb, Pires, Ljundberg, Robben, Park, Giggs etc etc etc etc all score much more regularly than Pennant. Even Babel who is about as unlike a left sided midfielder as you could possibly get, scores from left midfield. So does Benayoun from either flank, and the only concieveable reason that Pennant doesn't get on the scoresheet more often is that he doesn't stand in the right place often enough. I've done the boring explanations to death, and I'm well aware that most people in the UK will be on the black Coffee just to read this so I won't do it again. Suffice to say until he sorts that out, he'll never score regularly and therefore will never be good enough to feature as wide midfielder in a title winning team.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:22 am

Mick, Mascheranho and Gerrard have been paired together many times this season, but also during many games Mascheranho has been further advanced than Gerrard. So it is fair to expect him to pop up now and then. Sissoko, I'll go back to it, was constantly slaughtered for his lack of goals, as were Diao, Biscan, Cheyrou and Hamman. They've all been there and taken criticism for not scoring, so Mascheranho (however good at his job he is) must take some criticism for not scoring...NOT AS MUCH AS PENNANT, I take this point and keep repeating it, that Pennant should score more than he does and score more than Mascheranho.

But if people are or were prepared to moan about other "defensive minded midfielders" then they have to do the same for Mascheranho. Likewise if I slaughter Kewell for not getting on the scoresheet enough, I must do the same for Pennant. Which I am doing, he doesn't score enough, mainly because in his mind a winger's position is right on the touch line and not to move. So yes Pennant must score more as must many of our players.

I think in all competitions so far this season we've got TWO players in double figures in terms of goals, Torres and Gerrard. Early March to only have two players is a disgrace. All round, not just Pennant, not just Mascherano and not just Kuyt. But as a team that's pathetic. By this stage (no matter how much rotation has gone on) I'd expect Kuyt and Crouch to have racked up ten, with Babel very close to it. Riise and Aurellio with the amount of free kicks and shots those two have, they should have more than one goal between them. Alonso and Mascheranho should have more than two. Voronin should have more than five (all of which came in the opening months of the season) Our defenders could contribute a bit at corners also. Our wide players really need to push a few more goals (mainly Pennant) So overall I think our eye in front of goal (bar Gerrard and Torres) is poor at best.

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:38 am

Fair enough John, agree with nearly all of that. BTW in your four point plan which is part of your signature, I would expect Torres to have comfortably surpassed sixty league goals in his first four seasons if he is still here.

by **Toffeehater** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:50 am

bigmick wrote:Fair enough John, agree with nearly all of that. BTW in your four point plan which is part of your signature, I would expect Torres to have comfortably surpassed sixty league goals in his first four seasons if he is still here.

thats gootta be ur shortest post ever . lol . I'd have to agree with mick , at the rate he's going he's gonna maybe hit what 100 if he gets 25 a season , 20 in the league will make it 80

by **maguskwt** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:30 am

bigmick wrote:Fair enough John, agree with nearly all of that. BTW in your four point plan which is part of your signature, I would expect Torres to have comfortably surpassed sixty league goals in his first four seasons if he is still here.

owen's first 4 full seasons with us = 23 + 23 + 12 + 24 = 82 goals... surely torres needs to beat that to be able to claim that he's better than owen...(note: I didn't count the 96-97 season as his first because he only had 2 appearances)

owen's best 4 season with us = 28 + 28 + 24 + 23 = 103 goals...

I like torres alot but come on... he still has a way to beat owen's accomplishments...

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:45 am

maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:Fair enough John, agree with nearly all of that. BTW in your four point plan which is part of your signature, I would expect Torres to have comfortably surpassed sixty league goals in his first four seasons if he is still here.

owen's first 4 full seasons with us = 23 + 23 + 12 + 24 = 82 goals... surely torres needs to beat that to be able to claim that he's better than owen...(note: I didn't count the 96-97 season as his first because he only had 2 appearances)

owen's best 4 season with us = 28 + 28 + 24 + 23 = 103 goals...

I like torres alot but come on... he still has a way to beat owen's accomplishments...

Definately impressive numbers there mate. Things to consider though are firstly Owen took penalties, secondly are those his LEAGUE goals you are talking about, and thirdly, something else which has temporarily slipped my mind. Shame that, because out of the three things to remember it was the one above all others which categorically proved Torres was much the better player. It'll come back to me.

Anyway, Fowler was better than Owen as well.

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