Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:53 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:People seem to question a winger for scoring, but aren't arsed with the central midfielders who don't score. Mascheranho and Alonso between then have scored two goals all season (in the same match against Debry back in August) and between they've played a lot more than Pennant has.

Now Pennant should chip in with a few more, but so should many of our side, but it seems Pennant to be the scapegoat whereas Mascheranho is player of the year, a fella who hasn't scored at all. It can't be rule for one and one for others. Carrick, Essien and Flamini all play that defensive role Mascheranho does but they also chip in with a fair few goals. So surely if we're going to compare Pennant to other right wingers in terms of goals, lets compare Mascheranho's goal tally to those who play a similar position and Mascheranho would come out last which isn't a fair reflection on the lad because he's a top class player. So I think it's unfair just to blame Pennant for lack of goals in all honesty.

Why not compare Mascherano with Makelele then? Makelele has been one of, if not the best, holding midfield player over the last 5-6 years (he's probably just past it now). How many goals did he score for Real and then Chelsea?

Your argument is a joke really. A winger should certainly be on the score sheet more often than a defensive midfielder.

If you can't see the other qualities that Mascherano has which have made a lot of people say he's our player of the year, then just give up watching football mate.

by **RedBlood** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:55 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:People seem to question a winger for scoring, but aren't arsed with the central midfielders who don't score. Mascheranho and Alonso between then have scored two goals all season (in the same match against Debry back in August) and between they've played a lot more than Pennant has.

Now Pennant should chip in with a few more, but so should many of our side, but it seems Pennant to be the scapegoat whereas Mascheranho is player of the year, a fella who hasn't scored at all. It can't be rule for one and one for others. Carrick, Essien and Flamini all play that defensive role Mascheranho does but they also chip in with a fair few goals. So surely if we're going to compare Pennant to other right wingers in terms of goals, lets compare Mascheranho's goal tally to those who play a similar position and Mascheranho would come out last which isn't a fair reflection on the lad because he's a top class player. So I think it's unfair just to blame Pennant for lack of goals in all honesty.

i dont blame pennant for his lack of goals but i feel it is something he needs to work on to become a better player,
as does mascherano but i feel with him being a defensive midfielder his responsibilty is more towards not conceading goals where as pennants is more towards getting the team goals

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:05 pm

john craig wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:People seem to question a winger for scoring, but aren't arsed with the central midfielders who don't score. Mascheranho and Alonso between then have scored two goals all season (in the same match against Debry back in August) and between they've played a lot more than Pennant has.

Now Pennant should chip in with a few more, but so should many of our side, but it seems Pennant to be the scapegoat whereas Mascheranho is player of the year, a fella who hasn't scored at all. It can't be rule for one and one for others. Carrick, Essien and Flamini all play that defensive role Mascheranho does but they also chip in with a fair few goals. So surely if we're going to compare Pennant to other right wingers in terms of goals, lets compare Mascheranho's goal tally to those who play a similar position and Mascheranho would come out last which isn't a fair reflection on the lad because he's a top class player. So I think it's unfair just to blame Pennant for lack of goals in all honesty.

Why not compare Mascherano with Makelele then? Makelele has been one of, if not the best, holding midfield player over the last 5-6 years (he's probably just past it now). How many goals did he score for Real and then Chelsea?

Your argument is a joke really. A winger should certainly be on the score sheet more often than a defensive midfielder.

If you can't see the other qualities that Mascherano has which have made a lot of people say he's our player of the year, then just give up watching football mate.

Makelele scored once for once Chelsea, against Bolton on the day they won the league in 2005/06. Masceranho hasn't scored for us. That's good on your part eh mate?

As you'd see if you read it properly I've already stated Mascheranho is a top class player, but he still has to contribute with goals as does Pennant.

Pennant should be on the score sheet more often than Mascheranho, but then again people want Pennant to score as many as the other right wingers around the country, they should want Alonso and Mascheranho to score as many as other central midfielders do around the country. That's a simple fact that people aren't prepared to accept.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:17 pm

Rubbish John, Mascherano and Alonso scoring should be compared to Makele and Hargreaves who they are on par with. Forget the comparisons, Pennant as a forward should score at least some goals, and 2 (i think) in 70 games is absolute sh!t, even being an average scorer he should be a goal every 6 games or so. I can't believe you defend the bloke, every time i watch him live all i see is a lazy :censored:

who leaves the full back, usually Finnan with very few options, he never makes a decent run, or make an angle for the pass, basically very little off the ball. I think he is just thick.

It shows how poor he is that Kuyts recent foray out wide has been applauded so roundly.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:52 pm

The guy is a waster both as a human and as a footballer, ship him out ASAP.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:54 pm

If Alonso and Mascheranho shouldn't be compared, then why should Pennant's goal tally be compared to other wingers? Also I defend Pennant because when he's been given a chance for a long string of games we see the best of him. Like all players he needs minutes on the pitch. I think given a long stretch of games we'd see a different Pennant. Maybe not the best right winger in the world, but certainly better than most in the Premiership at the moment.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:01 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If Alonso and Mascheranho shouldn't be compared, then why should Pennant's goal tally be compared to other wingers? Also I defend Pennant because when he's been given a chance for a long string of games we see the best of him. Like all players he needs minutes on the pitch. I think given a long stretch of games we'd see a different Pennant. Maybe not the best right winger in the world, but certainly better than most in the Premiership at the moment.

I'm not comparing Pennant to anybody, but in the case of Mascherano and Alonso at least make the comparison like for like. What do you expect an attacking player to contribute in terms of goals for a start? As for games he played over 50 last year, fairly decent run i'd say.

The fact is he has always been a player that scores very few, and with a mediocre delivery into the box i fail to see the reasons for keeping him at the Club, especially, as i said earlier, that Kuyt has recently out-performed him.

by **username** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:19 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If Alonso and Mascheranho shouldn't be compared, then why should Pennant's goal tally be compared to other wingers? Also I defend Pennant because when he's been given a chance for a long string of games we see the best of him. Like all players he needs minutes on the pitch. I think given a long stretch of games we'd see a different Pennant. Maybe not the best right winger in the world, but certainly better than most in the Premiership at the moment.

Comparing a defensive CM to an attacking CM is like comparing a defender to a striker. Well in that case get rid of Carra cos he hasn't scored.

Your logic also says, lots of center backs for other teams have scored this season. But Carra hasn't scored. we must ship him out asap b/c hes not scoring...

Why arnt we saying that? Because hes not in the team to score, hes there to defend, just like Mascha

Pennants job is to set up and score goals, and hes not doing his job, simple as

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:24 am

redtrader74 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If Alonso and Mascheranho shouldn't be compared, then why should Pennant's goal tally be compared to other wingers? Also I defend Pennant because when he's been given a chance for a long string of games we see the best of him. Like all players he needs minutes on the pitch. I think given a long stretch of games we'd see a different Pennant. Maybe not the best right winger in the world, but certainly better than most in the Premiership at the moment.

I'm not comparing Pennant to anybody, but in the case of Mascherano and Alonso at least make the comparison like for like. What do you expect an attacking player to contribute in terms of goals for a start? As for games he played over 50 last year, fairly decent run i'd say.

The fact is he has always been a player that scores very few, and with a mediocre delivery into the box i fail to see the reasons for keeping him at the Club, especially, as i said earlier, that Kuyt has recently out-performed him.

Over 50 yes Red, I accept that, but in those 50...1) how many times did he play 90 minutes? 2) how often did he play with the same attacking line up like Kuyt has been doing so in recent weeks and 3) how many assists did he create during those 50 run outs?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:29 am

username wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If Alonso and Mascheranho shouldn't be compared, then why should Pennant's goal tally be compared to other wingers? Also I defend Pennant because when he's been given a chance for a long string of games we see the best of him. Like all players he needs minutes on the pitch. I think given a long stretch of games we'd see a different Pennant. Maybe not the best right winger in the world, but certainly better than most in the Premiership at the moment.

Comparing a defensive CM to an attacking CM is like comparing a defender to a striker. Well in that case get rid of Carra cos he hasn't scored.

Your logic also says, lots of center backs for other teams have scored this season. But Carra hasn't scored. we must ship him out asap b/c hes not scoring...

Why arnt we saying that? Because hes not in the team to score, hes there to defend, just like Mascha

Pennants job is to set up and score goals, and hes not doing his job, simple as

Who is comparing a defensive central midfielder with an attacking central midfielder?

Also you've missed the irony of the post all together. I wasn't for one minute saying lets sell players who aren't scoring, it was a simple enough thing to understand (or at least I thought so) that if people are going to compare Pennant's goal tally then they have to do the same with other players.

i.e. compare Mascheranho's goals to Flamini, Essien and Carrick who all play that holding role for their respective clubs and you will find Mascheranho coming out last...WHICH ISN'T A FAIR REFLECTION BECAUSE HE'S A TOP CLASS PLAYER AND BETTER THAN THOSE OTHER THREE. Which is why sitting there compalining about a winger not scoring isn't fair either. A forward yes, it's their main job to score. A winger's main job is to provide then chip in with a few. Pennant isn't chipping in with enough IMO but neither are Alonso or Mascheranho but I don't see many complaints about them, whereas Sissoko when he was here was slaughtered for not scoring.

To many people have one rule for one and another for others.

by **bigmick** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:30 am

Pennant has undoubtedly inproved since joining us and is a decent player. Unfortunately though, it says it all that Kuyt has been able to convert into a right midfielder and overnight offer more to the team than him. I would have thought that at the end of the season it might well be time to call it a day.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:47 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:i.e. compare Mascheranho's goals to Flamini, Essien and Carrick who all play that holding role for their respective clubs and you will find Mascheranho coming out last...WHICH ISN'T A FAIR REFLECTION BECAUSE HE'S A TOP CLASS PLAYER AND BETTER THAN THOSE OTHER THREE. Which is why sitting there compalining about a winger not scoring isn't fair either. A forward yes, it's their main job to score. A winger's main job is to provide then chip in with a few. Pennant isn't chipping in with enough IMO but neither are Alonso or Mascheranho but I don't see many complaints about them, whereas Sissoko when he was here was slaughtered for not scoring.

To many people have one rule for one and another for others.

Scoring goals is not a primary function of a defensive midfielder, they're not expected to contribute greatly goals-wise. For teams who want to win league titles year in year out, scoring goals is a far greater priority for wingers.

It's fair to compare Pennant's goal return with other players in his position because his return is very poor, and he occupies a position that demands a much better return.

You need around 70-80 goals to win the league, we've been getting between 52-57 in our last three seasons. Those extra 18-23 goals need to come from somewhere, and wingers should be looking at contributing to at least 5 per season, and if they're not contributing with goals, they should be making it up a big way by creating a lot. He doesn't contribute creatively enough, despite being a good crosser on the ball and having pretty good ability on the ball. If we had a top quality left-winger and a goal-scoring second forward, we may be able to get away with it, but we don't, and his lack of goal threat becomes more apparent.

I'd keep him unless a reasonable bid came in, because he does a pretty good job anyway, he's just not quite threatening enough.

by **username** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:55 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:i.e. compare Mascheranho's goals to Flamini, Essien and Carrick who all play that holding role for their respective clubs and you will find Mascheranho coming out last...WHICH ISN'T A FAIR REFLECTION BECAUSE HE'S A TOP CLASS PLAYER AND BETTER THAN THOSE OTHER THREE. Which is why sitting there compalining about a winger not scoring isn't fair either. A forward yes, it's their main job to score. A winger's main job is to provide then chip in with a few. Pennant isn't chipping in with enough IMO but neither are Alonso or Mascheranho but I don't see many complaints about them, whereas Sissoko when he was here was slaughtered for not scoring.

I agree it shouldnt be about goals

this season Flamini and Essien have scored 3 in the prem, Alonso with 2. While Carrick has scored one, with mascha as you have pointed out, with none. Not much of a margin, but still one or 2 (or 1 or 3)

However... Ronaldo has scored 21, Helb has 2, cole has 4, SWP has 2, Petrov has 4

Then if you look at attacking CM, united should be up shiter, Nani only has 2 Goals in the prem while Anderson has 0... pretty poor for what ild call attacking players and comparing to Gerrard and Fabrgas.

What does all this mean? That unless your a striker, scoring goals mean jack :censored:

(although, scoring alot makes you a good player).

It goes by how good a player is and what they offer , and pennant offers little compared to the others in his postion. That is what we should be talking about

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:59 am

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:i.e. compare Mascheranho's goals to Flamini, Essien and Carrick who all play that holding role for their respective clubs and you will find Mascheranho coming out last...WHICH ISN'T A FAIR REFLECTION BECAUSE HE'S A TOP CLASS PLAYER AND BETTER THAN THOSE OTHER THREE. Which is why sitting there compalining about a winger not scoring isn't fair either. A forward yes, it's their main job to score. A winger's main job is to provide then chip in with a few. Pennant isn't chipping in with enough IMO but neither are Alonso or Mascheranho but I don't see many complaints about them, whereas Sissoko when he was here was slaughtered for not scoring.

To many people have one rule for one and another for others.

Scoring goals is not a primary function of a defensive midfielder, they're not expected to contribute greatly goals-wise. For teams who want to win league titles year in year out, scoring goals is a far greater priority for wingers.

It's fair to compare Pennant's goal return with other players in his position because his return is very poor, and he occupies a position that demands a much better return.

You need around 70-80 goals to win the league, we've been getting between 52-57 in our last three seasons. Those extra 18-23 goals need to come from somewhere, and wingers should be looking at contributing to at least 5 per season, and if they're not contributing with goals, they should be making it up a big way by creating a lot. He doesn't contribute creatively enough, despite being a good crosser on the ball and having pretty good ability on the ball. If we had a top quality left-winger and a goal-scoring second forward, we may be able to get away with it, but we don't, and his lack of goal threat becomes more apparent.

I'd keep him unless a reasonable bid came in, because he does a pretty good job anyway, he's just not quite threatening enough.

18-23 more. 5 from wide. The other thirteen (minimum) from where then? Central midfielders, we don't have one who scores bar Gerrard.

Scholes is United'd main threat from the middle of the park yet Carrick chips in now and then.

Lampard/Ballack are Chelsea's main threats yet Essien comes in with three or four a season.

Fabregas has been Arsenal's main threat from midfield this season yet Flamini is still chipping in with his share.

Our central midfielders, however good they are at defending, don't score enough. With someone of Alonso's ability he should be chipping in with more than two.

I agree Pennant doesn't score enough, but for people to compare him to other right wingers yet leave blame away from central midfielders is wrong. I'm not asking you to compare Mascheranho's record to Scholes because it's a different position. But to Carrick yes. Pennant needs to score more than Mascheranho or Alonso but they also need to wade in with at least five between them.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:26 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:i.e. compare Mascheranho's goals to Flamini, Essien and Carrick who all play that holding role for their respective clubs and you will find Mascheranho coming out last...WHICH ISN'T A FAIR REFLECTION BECAUSE HE'S A TOP CLASS PLAYER AND BETTER THAN THOSE OTHER THREE. Which is why sitting there compalining about a winger not scoring isn't fair either. A forward yes, it's their main job to score. A winger's main job is to provide then chip in with a few. Pennant isn't chipping in with enough IMO but neither are Alonso or Mascheranho but I don't see many complaints about them, whereas Sissoko when he was here was slaughtered for not scoring.

To many people have one rule for one and another for others.

Scoring goals is not a primary function of a defensive midfielder, they're not expected to contribute greatly goals-wise. For teams who want to win league titles year in year out, scoring goals is a far greater priority for wingers.

It's fair to compare Pennant's goal return with other players in his position because his return is very poor, and he occupies a position that demands a much better return.

You need around 70-80 goals to win the league, we've been getting between 52-57 in our last three seasons. Those extra 18-23 goals need to come from somewhere, and wingers should be looking at contributing to at least 5 per season, and if they're not contributing with goals, they should be making it up a big way by creating a lot. He doesn't contribute creatively enough, despite being a good crosser on the ball and having pretty good ability on the ball. If we had a top quality left-winger and a goal-scoring second forward, we may be able to get away with it, but we don't, and his lack of goal threat becomes more apparent.

I'd keep him unless a reasonable bid came in, because he does a pretty good job anyway, he's just not quite threatening enough.

18-23 more. 5 from wide. The other thirteen (minimum) from where then? Central midfielders, we don't have one who scores bar Gerrard.

Scholes is United'd main threat from the middle of the park yet Carrick chips in now and then.

Lampard/Ballack are Chelsea's main threats yet Essien comes in with three or four a season.

Fabregas has been Arsenal's main threat from midfield this season yet Flamini is still chipping in with his share.

Our central midfielders, however good they are at defending, don't score enough. With someone of Alonso's ability he should be chipping in with more than two.

I agree Pennant doesn't score enough, but for people to compare him to other right wingers yet leave blame away from central midfielders is wrong.

No, 10 from wide, I meant 5 each minimum.

That leaves 8-13, a top quality second forward should be looking to chip in with a lot of those. If not, then our full backs should be looking to get one each per season minimum.

Alonso should be looking to scoring 4 or 5 consistently per season IMO (he averages about 1 in 10, which is about the same as Vieira and Keane managed at Arsenal and Man U), Mascherano isn't a requisite but one or two would be nice.

Carrick's scored one this season, he's no better than Alonso in the goalscoring department.

Essien contributes no more than Alonso does in goalscoring terms either.

Pennant needs to score more than Mascheranho or Alonso but they also need to wade in with at least five between them.

Alonso got four last season in the league. Flamini is no better in goalscoring terms just to nail that one.

I'm not asking you to compare Mascheranho's record to Scholes because it's a different position. But to Carrick yes.

Ok, Carrick's 1 to Mascherano's 0. There's not much of a difference.

It's not a necessity for Mascherano to score goals. Makelele scored one goal in his first three seasons with the club, in two of which he was widely regarded as being the best defensive CM in the league by a distance. In my view, rightly so. He was exceptional. To be the absolute best of the best, you need a greater goalscoring threat than Mascherano has shown, but it is not a necessity if we're to win the title, his attributes in every other department make up for this apparent lack of goal threat, and he remains top class.

It's the wingers and forwards we should be mainly looking to.

I suspect this will go in one ear and out the other, but never mind.

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