Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:19 am

I can't disagree Mick, the fella was a great footballer, a true captain who put the sh!t up his own players which is why they rarely lost with him, and still haven't replaced him IMO. But as Liverpool manager, he's one man I never want to see.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:22 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Fair point Lando, but until they play against that level of standard. They'll never be ready for it surely?

Don't forget Insua played a few first team matches at the a*se-end of last season.

If he isn't ready, throwing him in at the deep end could wreck his future.

I know Insua played a few times last season, I've made this point meself elsewhere. With that, allbeit limited experince, he'd be the more obvious choice to be thrown in.

I agree he is more likely, but even still - if he isn't ready, then it would be a mistake.

I keep saying it Lando, the only way to know if they're ready or not is to give them a sustained run in the side. If they're not ready by the end, then you know it's not going to happen. But if with each game they grow more and more, it saves you a ton of bread you would of forked out for some 2nd/3rd rate player from Spain.

Obviously you can't put all kids in, but a left back like Insua, next to Carra/Agger/Arebloa would be able to take confidence and know he has 3 worthy defenders covering any mistake he MAY make.

I do agree - I too would like to see Insua in the first team, but I think that if he were good enough (or strong enough), he'd be playing.

I don't think it's to do with strenght in all fairness. Robbie Fowler was often told he was to weak to play at this level and he turned out alright. I think it must be talent or fear of giving him a go.

Unless of course you mean mentally strong enough, then I haven't the faintess where Insua is up to.

It's a bit different to the Fowler issue. If a striker gets pushed off the ball, the chance goes begging.

If a defender gets pushed off the ball, 9 times out of 10, you're a goal down.

But maybe it IS his mental condition. He could be a cocky little blurt who needs to mature a bit before he represents the best club in the World.

Cocky little blurt, sounds like an Argie.

I hear time and time again though, that Ashley Cole is the world's best left back (I don't agree with this 1 bit, Fabio Aurellio and John Arne Riise are twice the player Cole is ) but even so, he's hardly built like a brick sh!t house, so is it vital for a left back to look like Frank Bruno?

No, of course not, but then - Cole is English, and doesn't need time to adapt.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:26 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Fair point Lando, but until they play against that level of standard. They'll never be ready for it surely?

Don't forget Insua played a few first team matches at the a*se-end of last season.

If he isn't ready, throwing him in at the deep end could wreck his future.

I know Insua played a few times last season, I've made this point meself elsewhere. With that, allbeit limited experince, he'd be the more obvious choice to be thrown in.

I agree he is more likely, but even still - if he isn't ready, then it would be a mistake.

I keep saying it Lando, the only way to know if they're ready or not is to give them a sustained run in the side. If they're not ready by the end, then you know it's not going to happen. But if with each game they grow more and more, it saves you a ton of bread you would of forked out for some 2nd/3rd rate player from Spain.

Obviously you can't put all kids in, but a left back like Insua, next to Carra/Agger/Arebloa would be able to take confidence and know he has 3 worthy defenders covering any mistake he MAY make.

I do agree - I too would like to see Insua in the first team, but I think that if he were good enough (or strong enough), he'd be playing.

I don't think it's to do with strenght in all fairness. Robbie Fowler was often told he was to weak to play at this level and he turned out alright. I think it must be talent or fear of giving him a go.

Unless of course you mean mentally strong enough, then I haven't the faintess where Insua is up to.

It's a bit different to the Fowler issue. If a striker gets pushed off the ball, the chance goes begging.

If a defender gets pushed off the ball, 9 times out of 10, you're a goal down.

But maybe it IS his mental condition. He could be a cocky little blurt who needs to mature a bit before he represents the best club in the World.

Cocky little blurt, sounds like an Argie.

I hear time and time again though, that Ashley Cole is the world's best left back (I don't agree with this 1 bit, Fabio Aurellio and John Arne Riise are twice the player Cole is ) but even so, he's hardly built like a brick sh!t house, so is it vital for a left back to look like Frank Bruno?

No, of course not, but then - Cole is English, and doesn't need time to adapt.

Evra and Clichy were given the time to adapt and look at them now. So how long does it take for him to "adapt" and the only way he will is by playing at the highest level.

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:39 pm

Defending Rafa

It's getting more and more difficult to defend Rafa Benitez.

That first line sounds like this is going to be a tirade AGAINST our manager, but it isn't. This is really a tirade against all the 'facts' bandied about by anyone with an Anti-Rafa agenda. They make accusations about Rafa's policies as though they are 'facts'. They repeat ad nauseum the nonsense they've read or heard. If I watch a game on TV, and the commentator says something memorably anti-Rafa, I know someone will come onto this board and repeat it word for word. This week, against Chelsea, that phrase was [courtesy of Andy Gray]: "Chelsea were there for the taking." Lo and behold, it's there, in all it's glory in the post match thread.

The rotation argument has been explained elsewhere to death, so I'll avoid that here - there's no point starting a new thread to stamp over old ground. And that isn't the issue I want to tackle anyway.

Instead, I'm getting more and more frustrated with the people who say things like "Rafa has an obsession with a big squad", "Rafa likes to buy on the cheap", "if Rafa spent more than 7-8 million on players we'd be better off".

Yes, Rafa has spent a lot of money on players in that price bracket. Now, the question here has to be, is that Rafa's choice to do that? When he has been able to spend more, he's not afraid to take the gamble. Torres and Masch [if the deal ever gets finalised] show his willingness to spend big on quality. So why did he spend 7-8 mil on mediocre options? Does it suggest his policy has changed? Does it say that Rafa's initial policy was wrong?

The answer to that is no. Let's back that up with evidence:

Quote
“The signings we made in the summer cost us a lot of money and they’ve not worked, it’s the same old story. We were happy to spend £9m on a centre-forward but we were told we should be spending £30m. You can’t go out and get a Bentley all the time.”

Thanks to Mr Noel White for that. Gives an interesting insight into the constraints put on Rafa's buying, and shows he was entirely unable to compete with Chelsea and Manchester United for his top targets.

To all those who think Rafa can't do the job in the Premier League, just look at the evidence of the last few years and what we know now. Any manager who does not have his perfect team and have to make do if he has to settle for second or third best, or even scrabble around looking for cut-price bargains. Rafa is quick to ship out any players who do not measure up.

If Chelsea and Manchester United always get their #1 targets, how could Rafa compete having to 'make do' in comparison? We couldn't really expect Rafa to serve Champagne on a Blue Nun budget. Both Manchester United and Chelsea have been able to spend on one player in one year more than our entire buying budget for three or four players.

Mancehster United has spent more money on a single defender, than our top target as a striker.

Sadly, the backing given to GH for players like Cheyrou, Cisse, Diouf, Diao, etc made the old Liverpool board suspicous of giving Rafa free reign in case history repeated itself.

Although I liked GH (and still maintain it was his illness that changed his view of the game) his legacy didn't help Rafa's plans. GH didn't ever like to admit he was wrong. Rafa will stick by his principles, but he's not afraid to replace players if he thinks they aren't up to scratch. With less funds than he would have liked, Rafa bought (or signed) players to plug gaps for short terms (Zenden, Gonzales, Kromkamp, Nunez, Josemi) and dispatch them when no longer required.

After Athens, Rafa hinted as to what board influences had on his signings:

Quote from: Rafa Benitez
"We must not waste this moment. We must move quickly to sign our number-one targets.
"If we wait we will be chasing the players who are second and third on our list. We need to change the structure of the club on and off the pitch.
"We must make progress, and make it now to take us up two or three levels straight away."

Quote from: Rafa Benitez
"We have finished 21 points behind United and 15 behind Chelsea.
"They will both spend big money again and we will just be marking time. If we continue the way we are we will be fighting for fourth spot again at the end of the season, and we cannot have that all the time."

Is that not exactly what has happened?

It's funny looking back on those comments, because some people wanting Rafa sacked, would probably agree with every word he's saying. Whereas Chelsea had the opportunity to buy a whole squad at top prices in the space of two or three transfer windows, in the same time, Rafa has been buying 'value' options. Can we really expect the signing of Torres alone to stem that tide?

Of course not.

So please, if you're going to criticise Rafa, don't criticise his spending and signings, because for the majority of his Liverpool career, he's had exactly the same per-player spend you'd expect of Villa, Everton and even Portsmouth spend on single players. And there's plenty of evidence to prove that wasn't Rafa's choice.

Wthout doubt, these constraints have affected the shape and quality of the team Rafa has been able to produce.

We may be unimpressed with the American owners, but at least they allowed Rafa the freedom to sign Torres, smashing the old guard's restrictions on Rafa's buying. It may be the same amount spent, but the crucial part is how they allowed it to be spent.

Is it fair to castigate a manager for not signing his top targets, when in reality he had one hand tied behind his back and wasn't allowed to spend big?

Very good read and i think he has got some good points , not that i agree with all but that's what a forum is for .

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:54 pm

to highlight the article Toffeehater found above ^^^^. It probably didn't need its own thread and this thread seems to be the place for discussing the pros and cons of Rafa so I've moved it here.

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:58 pm

Thx bob , u 're the man and sorry for the inconvenience

by **LittleHobo** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:40 pm

the money arguement is clutching at straws in my opinion

valencia didnt have the most money, biggest budget, best players but he won the league with them

he has wasted money this past year in my opinion chosing to buy very expensive youngsters (lucas, babel) who blatantly wont be first teamers yet ahead of players for the "now" who could have been first team and made us stronger

if your gonna pay 12 million for babel ahead of signing a decent winger then surely you gotta play babel

its alot of wasted money just to sit him on the bench

if rafa gets sacked in the summer its the signing of lucas and babel ahead of signing players who would have made the first team stronger that could have done it for him.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:51 pm

Bad Bob wrote: to highlight the article Toffeehater found above ^^^^. It probably didn't need its own thread and this thread seems to be the place for discussing the pros and cons of Rafa so I've moved it here.

Every thread seems to be the place for discussing the pros and cons of Rafa at the moment Bob

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:10 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote::bump to highlight the article Toffeehater found above ^^^^. It probably didn't need its own thread and this thread seems to be the place for discussing the pros and cons of Rafa so I've moved it here.

Every thread seems to be the place for discussing the pros and cons of Rafa at the moment Bob

It's just a temporary hiatus from what we all want to talk about, mate: rotation. :nod

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:18 pm

LittleHobo wrote:the money arguement is clutching at straws in my opinion

valencia didnt have the most money, biggest budget, best players but he won the league with them

he has wasted money this past year in my opinion chosing to buy very expensive youngsters (lucas, babel) who blatantly wont be first teamers yet ahead of players for the "now" who could have been first team and made us stronger

if your gonna pay 12 million for babel ahead of signing a decent winger then surely you gotta play babel

its alot of wasted money just to sit him on the bench

if rafa gets sacked in the summer its the signing of lucas and babel ahead of signing players who would have made the first team stronger that could have done it for him.

OK so lets ASSUME we didn't buy Babel now, and went out and bought a natural left winger. Assuming the left winger is a flop, next season we would of needed to spend closer to 18-20 million on Babel to accomadate the previous winger who was a flop. An extra 6-8 million would be spent.

It's not the signings of Babel or Lucas who've cost Benitez, because they are two of his better buys IMO. What's cost Benitez is so many gambles not paying off.

by **big al** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:27 am

Can I say that that I forgot until recently how much I love Rafa. In 2004 on this very forum I started a personal campaign to get rid of Igor Biscan JBG you will remeber this. That so called footballer who was absolutely the worst effort of a football player I'd ever saw was symbolic of everything that was wrong about Liverpool. Last Night I was going over some old programmes. Sorry its a bit sad, should have been shagging the wife, not particular whose but anyway. looked at the back of a programme for the Blackburn game in April 2004 before GH left. The team was rubbish. Of 38 players only 6 remain Gerrard, Carragher, Riise, Kewell, Hypia and Finnan. 3 of those are probably on there way although I will be sad to see Sami leave. But the fact is Rafa has had to rebuild and alright he has'nt got it right yet. But we had some absolute crappy players back then. I am a ficklebugger I admit it, RAFA rules. Any manager who is as ruthless as Shankly deserves are support. The next person to slate RAFA just go back 4 years and look at the rubbish around then. The only good player to leave was Owen. The rest were rubbish or were finished.
The british labour party had an election chant for there second term it was 4 more years. So this ones for Rafa. 4 more years, 4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years

by **NANNY RED** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:33 am

big al wrote:Can I say that that I forgot until recently how much I love Rafa. In 2004 on this very forum I started a personal campaign to get rid of Igor Biscan JBG you will remeber this. That so called footballer who was absolutely the worst effort of a football player I'd ever saw was symbolic of everything that was wrong about Liverpool. Last Night I was going over some old programmes. Sorry its a bit sad, should have been shagging the wife, not particular whose but anyway. looked at the back of a programme for the Blackburn game in April 2004 before GH left. The team was rubbish. Of 38 players only 6 remain Gerrard, Carragher, Riise, Kewell, Hypia and Finnan. 3 of those are probably on there way although I will be sad to see Sami leave. But the fact is Rafa has had to rebuild and alright he has'nt got it right yet. But we had some absolute crappy players back then. I am a ficklebugger I admit it, RAFA rules. Any manager who is as ruthless as Shankly deserves are support. The next person to slate RAFA just go back 4 years and look at the rubbish around then. The only good player to leave was Owen. The rest were rubbish or were finished.
The british labour party had an election chant for there second term it was 4 more years. So this ones for Rafa. 4 more years, 4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years

I officially declare you chairman of The Raffa Club can i be your secratary, crackin post

by **big al** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:37 am

Thankyou Nanny Red you've got the job. Now your an officila post holder please remenber to sign of with are official chant 4 more years, 4 more years, 4 more years

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:47 am

big al wrote:Can I say that that I forgot until recently how much I love Rafa. In 2004 on this very forum I started a personal campaign to get rid of Igor Biscan JBG you will remeber this. That so called footballer who was absolutely the worst effort of a football player I'd ever saw was symbolic of everything that was wrong about Liverpool. Last Night I was going over some old programmes. Sorry its a bit sad, should have been shagging the wife, not particular whose but anyway. looked at the back of a programme for the Blackburn game in April 2004 before GH left. The team was rubbish. Of 38 players only 6 remain Gerrard, Carragher, Riise, Kewell, Hypia and Finnan. 3 of those are probably on there way although I will be sad to see Sami leave. But the fact is Rafa has had to rebuild and alright he has'nt got it right yet. But we had some absolute crappy players back then. I am a ficklebugger I admit it, RAFA rules. Any manager who is as ruthless as Shankly deserves are support. The next person to slate RAFA just go back 4 years and look at the rubbish around then. The only good player to leave was Owen. The rest were rubbish or were finished.
The british labour party had an election chant for there second term it was 4 more years. So this ones for Rafa. 4 more years, 4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years,4 more years

OK, go and look at the Arsenal side who WON THE LEAGUE 4 YEARS AGO. How many are still there now? I take it they were all sh!t as well that's why they won the league.

Lets look at Benitez' squad. Lets see if I can name that many of the current squad who've played this season or been in the squad (players loaned out included)

OK here goes:
1) Reina
2) Intandje *
3) Carson *
4) Finnan *
5) Agger
6) Carra
7) Riise *
8) Skrtel
9) Hobbs
10) Aurellio *
11) Arbeloa
12) Hyypia *
13) Gerrard
14) Kewell *
15) Mascheranho
16) Anderson
17) Hammill
18) Threllfall
19) Alonso *
20) Lucas
21) Leto
22) Babel
23) Pennant
24) Benayoun *
25) San Jose
26) Torres
27) Kuyt *
28) Crouch
29) Voronin *
30) Martin

That's off the top of my head, if I've missed anyone out, no doubt I'll be informed. But looking at those 30 players, there's at least 10 I would be happy to sell right now marked by the stars. That would leave us with 20 players. So one in every three isn't exactly a great squad for Benitez either is it? Houllier may of had some sh!t players, but it's not as bad as your making out. From the 2004 squad I can recall Hamman, Henchoz, Murphy (to some extent) Owen, Baros (to some extent) Kirkland (to some extent) Warnock and Anelka. All good players for this club, so saying it was only Owen who was let go is bollox. It was filled with players still playing in the Prem today. All of whom I mentioned are at prem clubs, even Henchoz who's in the reserves at Blackburn now, is still in the prem. Useless statement you made.

by **big al** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:06 am

They were sh1t premarily because Igor bloody Biscan was in the team.

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