Liverpool FC Forum

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:09 pm

LittleHobo wrote:summing it all up

rafa has failed to do what he did at valencia

at Valencia he didnt have the best team,he didnt have the money of barca and real madrid BUT his team had the best organisation, winning mentality and tactical nouse to outwit the big teams

for some reason he hasnt brought that to the premiership

That's unfair!

Rafa has to compete with 3 very consistent and wealthy rivals in England. Back in Spain he was competing against two highly under-performing teams.

by **LittleHobo** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:12 pm

ruskiy playmaker wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:summing it all up

rafa has failed to do what he did at valencia

at Valencia he didnt have the best team,he didnt have the money of barca and real madrid BUT his team had the best organisation, winning mentality and tactical nouse to outwit the big teams

for some reason he hasnt brought that to the premiership

That's unfair!

Rafa has to compete with 3 very consistent and wealthy rivals in England. Back in Spain he was competing against two highly under-performing teams.

the wealthy bit doesnt matter, he outwitted barca and real madrid despite having less spending power and overall having a worse set of players

so i dont buy the wealth bolloxxx

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:13 pm

ruskiy playmaker wrote:
bigmick wrote:As a development on Saints extremely fair but inevitably unanswered question, my question is this.

If the new owners gave Rafa unlimited funds in the Summer, Abrhamovic style, do you think he will win the title in one of the next two seasons after this one?

Yes, even I could win the title with that much cash.

Not if you rotated Rafa style you wouldn't unfortunately.

Neither will Rafa either. You could sign Queresma, Villa, Forlan, Henri, Ferdinand, Rooney, Ronaldo and Fabregas. It would make no difference if you change the team/formation/positions as often as Rafa does.

Sooner or later you'll run into a team which is playing with fluency and cohesion and you'll get beat. Alternatively, you'll run into a team full of yard dogs who'll want to kick you off the park. You'll need a togetherness and a fighting spirit which you won't have if you've been Rafa styling it and you'' get beat.

Some people are saying "give him another year and if I'm wrong I'll admit it". This would be a huge mistake in my opinion, it's time for a change.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:15 pm

maguskwt wrote:top winger I can't believe the anti rafa peeps have totally disregarded the role the owners played in the team's downfall this season... it is not an excuse it is a FACT. it is a fact that we were still up there within striking distance before all the dirty laundry got washed in public.

saint, when all the the owners created started coming out, I remember you commenting that our players seemed not themselves on the pitch and no wonder it must be all those off the pitch issues that's distracting them... amnesia?

our overall team perfomance will greatly improve next season if:

1. we sign masherano
2. the owners won't create the sort of mess they did this season and fully supports rafa

because:

our existing players WILL improve. mascherano, lucas and gerrard in the middle. Torres and babel/benayoun/kuyt up front. Kuyt will come good again... he's not a world class player but he's alot better than what he's showing now. Pennant/Benayoun/Babel/Gerrard/Riise on the wings. At the back agger will be back... so agger and carra as the best defensive pairing in the league and we will have the stability back (with skrtel as back up). at the full backs aurelio will be 100% again. So aurelio, arbeloa, finnan and riise.

it is not a bad team...a team with an outside chance... but unfortunately still not good enough... a top 3 team IMO

we will definitely challenge the title if:

1. we sign a top creative striker (Diego, Van der Vaart, Podolski, etc)
2. we sign a top winger (mancini, milner, etc)

with 2 top signings, we will have a squad as good as any and if rafa fails to challenge for the title then I will not defend him... (unless he wins another CL again )

I honestly don't remember saying anything like :-

I remember you commenting that our players seemed not themselves on the pitch and no wonder it must be all those off the pitch issues that's distracting them

I am not a great one at looking for excuses.

I prefer to see things as they are rather than hiding behind "excuse of the week".

It was the end of November when the trouble with the owners first flaired up, we were already struggling in the league and the CL, so to blame it all on the owners seems a little bit strange to me.

Were we having trouble with the owners when we were top of the league (for one week) or was it the week after when we drew with Portsmouth away, Porto away and Birmingham at home? No it was months later.

I have no doubts that with the addition of a creative striker and a top winger we will have a team capable of winning the league , I said that at the beginning of THIS season.

My doubt is not that the team is not good enough, my doubts are that the manager is not good enough to win the league.

by **LittleHobo** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:18 pm

another comparison to his valencia team

at valencia he didnt change the formation every game

he kept with the 4-5-1

attacking wingers,two defensive mids, one creative guy behind the striker

why hasnt he found a formation and stuck with it in the premiership?

Because of this we never look like a team, we never look like we have partnerships and pairings who really link well and work well together and we never have fluent football because the players simply havent had long enough to gel together

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:21 pm

LittleHobo wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:summing it all up

rafa has failed to do what he did at valencia

at Valencia he didnt have the best team,he didnt have the money of barca and real madrid BUT his team had the best organisation, winning mentality and tactical nouse to outwit the big teams

for some reason he hasnt brought that to the premiership

That's unfair!

Rafa has to compete with 3 very consistent and wealthy rivals in England. Back in Spain he was competing against two highly under-performing teams.

barcelona and real madrid both had better players and more money to spend and rafa outwitted them

why hasnt he done the same here?

Don't you understand what under-performing means? Real-Madrid had all these galacticos but they were very inconsistent because they kept changing managers and systems, basically they were a mess. Barcelona were also under-performing before Rijkaard came in.

While in England you have teams like Arsenal, Man U who have veteran managers, who have been in England for ages and are masters at winning the league. There is a major difference.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:24 pm

LittleHobo wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:summing it all up

rafa has failed to do what he did at valencia

at Valencia he didnt have the best team,he didnt have the money of barca and real madrid BUT his team had the best organisation, winning mentality and tactical nouse to outwit the big teams

for some reason he hasnt brought that to the premiership

That's unfair!

Rafa has to compete with 3 very consistent and wealthy rivals in England. Back in Spain he was competing against two highly under-performing teams.

the wealthy bit doesnt matter, he outwitted barca and real madrid despite having less spending power and overall having a worse set of players

so i dont buy the wealth bolloxxx

I will try to be objective and answer this... of course these are all my opinions...

1. ferguson's and wenger's stranglehold on the premier league was much stronger than real madrid's and barca's on the spanish league. Barca had been underperforming for decades (similar to chelsea before abramovich) real madrid was failing because of the galactico system and fickle owners changing managers every year.

2. rafa was naturally much more familiar with spanish teams, players and how they played.

3. this might be abit controversial... but spanish players and english players are totally different species... spanish players are technically better IMO... whereas english players are more direct using pace and power... I know that we have spanish players too but not really the key ones... somehow the valencia players under rafa seemed to have suited his tactics better than our players now... not being able to recruit players that suits his tactics is rafa's weakness IMO... but he did have to work with constraints.

by **LittleHobo** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:24 pm

ruskiy playmaker wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:summing it all up

rafa has failed to do what he did at valencia

at Valencia he didnt have the best team,he didnt have the money of barca and real madrid BUT his team had the best organisation, winning mentality and tactical nouse to outwit the big teams

for some reason he hasnt brought that to the premiership

That's unfair!

Rafa has to compete with 3 very consistent and wealthy rivals in England. Back in Spain he was competing against two highly under-performing teams.

barcelona and real madrid both had better players and more money to spend and rafa outwitted them

why hasnt he done the same here?

Don't you understand what under-performing means? Real-Madrid had all these galacticos but they were very inconsistent because they kept changing managers and systems, basically they were a mess. Barcelona were also under-performing before Rijkaard came in.

While in England you have teams like Arsenal, Man U who have veteran managers, who have been in England for ages and are masters at winning the league. There is a major difference.

yeah i see your point

the fact still remains that he outwitted teams with much more money and much better players

barca and real madrid were hardley poor in those times as valencia never ran away with the league

by **maguskwt** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:27 pm

s@int wrote:
maguskwt wrote:top winger I can't believe the anti rafa peeps have totally disregarded the role the owners played in the team's downfall this season... it is not an excuse it is a FACT. it is a fact that we were still up there within striking distance before all the dirty laundry got washed in public.

saint, when all the the owners created started coming out, I remember you commenting that our players seemed not themselves on the pitch and no wonder it must be all those off the pitch issues that's distracting them... amnesia?

our overall team perfomance will greatly improve next season if:

1. we sign masherano
2. the owners won't create the sort of mess they did this season and fully supports rafa

because:

our existing players WILL improve. mascherano, lucas and gerrard in the middle. Torres and babel/benayoun/kuyt up front. Kuyt will come good again... he's not a world class player but he's alot better than what he's showing now. Pennant/Benayoun/Babel/Gerrard/Riise on the wings. At the back agger will be back... so agger and carra as the best defensive pairing in the league and we will have the stability back (with skrtel as back up). at the full backs aurelio will be 100% again. So aurelio, arbeloa, finnan and riise.

it is not a bad team...a team with an outside chance... but unfortunately still not good enough... a top 3 team IMO

we will definitely challenge the title if:

1. we sign a top creative striker (Diego, Van der Vaart, Podolski, etc)
2. we sign a top winger (mancini, milner, etc)

with 2 top signings, we will have a squad as good as any and if rafa fails to challenge for the title then I will not defend him... (unless he wins another CL again )

I honestly don't remember saying anything like :-
I remember you commenting that our players seemed not themselves on the pitch and no wonder it must be all those off the pitch issues that's distracting them
I am not a great one at looking for excuses.

I prefer to see things as they are rather than hiding behind "excuse of the week".

It was the end of November when the trouble with the owners first flaired up, we were already struggling in the league and the CL, so to blame it all on the owners seems a little bit strange to me.

Were we having trouble with the owners when we were top of the league (for one week) or was it the week after when we drew with Portsmouth away, Porto away and Birmingham at home? No it was months later.

I have no doubts that with the addition of a creative striker and a top winger we will have a team capable of winning the league , I said that at the beginning of THIS season.

My doubt is not that the team is not good enough, my doubts are that the manager is not good enough to win the league.

you clearly changed your tune then saint... because I remember you clearly saying that in one of the match threads... but I can't be bothered digging for the proof...

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:28 pm

I know that we have spanish players too but not really the key ones.

I would fkn duck when Lando and Sabre come on mate

Reina, Alonso and Torres............Sabre will have a nervo

by **LittleHobo** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:30 pm

heres another one

valencia had an amazing team work ethic, out passed their opponents, out moved their opponents and had amazing together team spirit

we have none of those qualities

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:31 pm

bigmick wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:
bigmick wrote:As a development on Saints extremely fair but inevitably unanswered question, my question is this.

If the new owners gave Rafa unlimited funds in the Summer, Abrhamovic style, do you think he will win the title in one of the next two seasons after this one?

Yes, even I could win the title with that much cash.

Not if you rotated Rafa style you wouldn't unfortunately.

Neither will Rafa either. You could sign Queresma, Villa, Forlan, Henri, Ferdinand, Rooney, Ronaldo and Fabregas. It would make no difference if you change the team/formation/positions as often as Rafa does.

Sooner or later you'll run into a team which is playing with fluency and cohesion and you'll get beat. Alternatively, you'll run into a team full of yard dogs who'll want to kick you off the park. You'll need a togetherness and a fighting spirit which you won't have if you've been Rafa styling it and you'' get beat.

Some people are saying "give him another year and if I'm wrong I'll admit it". This would be a huge mistake in my opinion, it's time for a change.

Mick i honestly believe if he brought the missing links in of the Torres and Masherano standard i feel that you would be posting less and less in the rotation thread :
D In my heart and well go one then my head Raffa will play a more settled side than he is doing now, and if he does do a wrongin and carry on Rotating with them then ill hold my hands up and admit defeat.

Mick your just worried you might be out of a rotation posting job

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:31 pm

maguskwt wrote:
s@int wrote:
maguskwt wrote:top winger I can't believe the anti rafa peeps have totally disregarded the role the owners played in the team's downfall this season... it is not an excuse it is a FACT. it is a fact that we were still up there within striking distance before all the dirty laundry got washed in public.

saint, when all the the owners created started coming out, I remember you commenting that our players seemed not themselves on the pitch and no wonder it must be all those off the pitch issues that's distracting them... amnesia?

our overall team perfomance will greatly improve next season if:

1. we sign masherano
2. the owners won't create the sort of mess they did this season and fully supports rafa

because:

our existing players WILL improve. mascherano, lucas and gerrard in the middle. Torres and babel/benayoun/kuyt up front. Kuyt will come good again... he's not a world class player but he's alot better than what he's showing now. Pennant/Benayoun/Babel/Gerrard/Riise on the wings. At the back agger will be back... so agger and carra as the best defensive pairing in the league and we will have the stability back (with skrtel as back up). at the full backs aurelio will be 100% again. So aurelio, arbeloa, finnan and riise.

it is not a bad team...a team with an outside chance... but unfortunately still not good enough... a top 3 team IMO

we will definitely challenge the title if:

1. we sign a top creative striker (Diego, Van der Vaart, Podolski, etc)
2. we sign a top winger (mancini, milner, etc)

with 2 top signings, we will have a squad as good as any and if rafa fails to challenge for the title then I will not defend him... (unless he wins another CL again )

I honestly don't remember saying anything like :-
I remember you commenting that our players seemed not themselves on the pitch and no wonder it must be all those off the pitch issues that's distracting them
I am not a great one at looking for excuses.

I prefer to see things as they are rather than hiding behind "excuse of the week".

It was the end of November when the trouble with the owners first flaired up, we were already struggling in the league and the CL, so to blame it all on the owners seems a little bit strange to me.

Were we having trouble with the owners when we were top of the league (for one week) or was it the week after when we drew with Portsmouth away, Porto away and Birmingham at home? No it was months later.

I have no doubts that with the addition of a creative striker and a top winger we will have a team capable of winning the league , I said that at the beginning of THIS season.

My doubt is not that the team is not good enough, my doubts are that the manager is not good enough to win the league.

you clearly changed your tune then saint... because I remember you clearly saying that in one of the match threads... but I can't be bothered digging for the proof...

I am not saying I didn't say it mate, I am saying I can't remember saying it. Its not the sort of thing I would usually say, maybe I said it "getting " at H&G.

Doesn't alter my argument in the slightest though mate.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:48 pm

s@int wrote:
I know that we have spanish players too but not really the key ones.

I would fkn duck when Lando and Sabre come on mate Reina, Alonso and Torres............Sabre will have a nervo

... torres just joined us this season so doesn't count... he hasn't even played a full season...

reina is not an outfield player...

alonso is one key player... but he can't change the way the others play now can he....

by **maguskwt** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:50 pm

mick, if a new manager comes in what's ur specialty gonna be on this forum?

i'm afraid you have invested too much in the rotation topic...

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