Liverpool FC Forum

by **DAV** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:49 am

People say on TV and around the forums GH is the best man for the job. They say he works so hard, which is probabley true, and with his persistence he will turn Liverpool around. Persistence well GH has that. Only problem is he's showing to be persistanly incompetent. Don't get me wrong we will probabley end up 5th or 6th in the table. If this is what you want then let him stay. But not me. I prefered watching our football under souness. We wernt good then but at least it was entertaining. Everyone use to call Arsenal boring years ago. Well they were but at least they use to win stuff. Under GH we will never Win the League and probabley never make it into the champions League again. He has put together a large squad of over paid medioca players, either that or GH brings the worst out of them. Owen and Gerrard our best 2 players wont stick around for ever, they need to be at a club who regulaly compete against the best. I would have no grudge against them if at the end of the season they left.
So to sum up if we stick with GH and hope sooner probabley later he turns things around. We loose Owen and Gerrard.
(one other thing when is this goal rush happening that Heskey told us about after he scored his first goal of the season).
What a joke he is.

by **tockycol** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:19 pm

COULDNT AGREE MORE

by **supersub** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:17 pm

GH has now,by public demand,adopted a more attacking style which will need a little patience before we reap the benefits.To be honest I think we are benefiting now,but we are just not getting the results.They will come,honestly and we will make a good claim for a champions league place.Wether we win the big prize,maybe not this year but with Gerrard staying and the purchase of another striker,centre-half and we will be back in the reckoning.

by **tubby** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:55 pm

DAV wrote:People say on TV and around the forums GH is the best man for the job. They say he works so hard, which is probabley true, and with his persistence he will turn Liverpool around. Persistence well GH has that. Only problem is he's showing to be persistanly incompetent. Don't get me wrong we will probabley end up 5th or 6th in the table.

Im in a

mood tonight so I thought id bring back this old thread. Call me cynical but some of the things sound familiar no?

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:58 pm

supersub wrote:Whether we win the big prize,maybe not this year but with Gerrard staying and the purchase of another striker,centre-half and we will be back in the reckoning.

We've been saying words to this effect for years unfortunately.

by **tubby** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:13 pm

Yep all too true.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:43 am

I really think a lack of heavyweight spending power is letting us down badly at this point though.

I think Rafa banked on Kuyt having a really good season after a patchy debut year, it hasn't happened, and now we're talking about deja vu. In an alternate universe we've probably got none of the problems with the owners, and instead they've seen what's up and given the manager £20m to play with in the window.

Meanwhile, on our plane of existence, above us in the league we've got teams that isolate a weakness and throw £12m-£20m at the problem areas until they hit on the solution, whereas for us that's simply not possible.

I do think that our depth at the back is the best it has been since Rafa arrived, and obviously central mid is another strength. Either side and up top though, we just haven't found the right formula, and that's what happens when we have to shop in the £6-£10m bracket instead of being able to break the bank for a world class, repeatedly proven talent. Benayoun and Pennant have done a job at times, but when you look at Ronaldo at Man U, a player that looms over games even when he's playing well off his best, you have to admit that we're still way off.

In a way the capture of Torres actually makes the failings more obvious. Such has been his impact, our failure to add players of similar class up front and out wide has been horribly exposed.

I think when all is said and done, Rafa has done a phenomenal job with finances that simply aren't competitive with the Premiership's current top 3. To get among those teams though he needs continued backing with the chequebook. A one off investment of £20+m just isn't going to cut it.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:42 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:I really think a lack of heavyweight spending power is letting us down badly at this point though.

I think Rafa banked on Kuyt having a really good season after a patchy debut year, it hasn't happened, and now we're talking about deja vu. In an alternate universe we've probably got none of the problems with the owners, and instead they've seen what's up and given the manager £20m to play with in the window.

Meanwhile, on our plane of existence, above us in the league we've got teams that isolate a weakness and throw £12m-£20m at the problem areas until they hit on the solution, whereas for us that's simply not possible.

I do think that our depth at the back is the best it has been since Rafa arrived, and obviously central mid is another strength. Either side and up top though, we just haven't found the right formula, and that's what happens when we have to shop in the £6-£10m bracket instead of being able to break the bank for a world class, repeatedly proven talent. Benayoun and Pennant have done a job at times, but when you look at Ronaldo at Man U, a player that looms over games even when he's playing well off his best, you have to admit that we're still way off.

In a way the capture of Torres actually makes the failings more obvious. Such has been his impact, our failure to add players of similar class up front and out wide has been horribly exposed.

I think when all is said and done, Rafa has done a phenomenal job with finances that simply aren't competitive with the Premiership's current top 3. To get among those teams though he needs continued backing with the chequebook. A one off investment of £20+m just isn't going to cut it.

I'd rather my club was a plucky top 6 side in a 45,000 capacity stadium fighting the honest fight year after year than be the kind of club whose support hears the rustle of money and throws itself at a rich man's feet.

Yer lad.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:06 am

What's your point?

I'm saying in this thread that we simply aren't at the races in spending terms with our direct competitors.

In the other thread I'm saying that selling your soul to c*nt and c*nterson to get into those races isn't necessarily worth it. Think about how sh*t the last couple of weeks have been and stretch that feeling over a couple of years and predict how you'll feel then.

If we ever get to the point where our finances allow us to compete in the transfer market without us having to pray for manna from the US/Dubai (delete as applicable), then I'd love us to go toe to toe with Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U. If we have to get a generic stadium, hike the ticket prices and sell out the fanbase to get there in the short term though, I really don't think I want us to go there, and I'll take another 19 year weight for a title ta v much.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:15 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:What's your point?

I'm saying in this thread that we simply aren't at the races in spending terms with our direct competitors.

In the other thread I'm saying that selling your soul to c*nt and c*nterson to get into those races isn't necessarily worth it. Think about how sh*t the last couple of weeks have been and stretch that feeling over a couple of years and predict how you'll feel then.

If we ever get to the point where our finances allow us to compete in the transfer market without us having to pray for manna from the US/Dubai (delete as applicable), then I'd love us to go toe to toe with Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U. If we have to get a generic stadium, hike the ticket prices and sell out the fanbase to get there in the short term though, I really don't think I want us to go there, and I'll take another 19 year weight for a title ta v much.

On the one hand you bemoan our spending power, on the other you ridicule people's attitudes towards prospective owners who could well resolve this problem.

There is no other way but to opt for an owner who, in the short term can support our spending plans, that is one of the main reasons Moores decided to sell up. You can't rely on organic growth alone, the bar has been raised, it's only getting higher.

That's modern day football for you.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:31 am

Course it is. And, I'm saying, it f*cking stinks.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:41 am

I completely agree - 100%, but that's the way it is. Circumstances are forced upon us.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:27 am

apologies for recycyling my post from the other thread

... but it seems quite relevant here... my opinion is that:

bigmick wrote:I'll try and keep it less than 1000 words. If the owners are still here by the Summer, I hope Rafa is too because he has a lovely knack of getting under their skin. If however we have changed ownership, I will be advocating a change of manager before next season barring a seeing of the light moment on team selection, squad building and game approach.

and who will you be advocating to replace Rafa, bigmick? (I have a feeling you will say mourinho... if that fella were ever to become our manager you will have another heimdall on this forum...

)

there were some figures a while back that says we've spent more money than man united. Now i don't know whether that is really true or not but if it were, it is precisely because we had more managers than them throughout the years. It takes time and money whenever a new manager comes in and it is a financial strain on the club when we are forever in a state of rebuilding. I believe it is also this reason why we didn't manage to build a new stadium or enlarge our current one (don't know if it's possible) or improve our marketing and branding when the mancs have been improving in all those other areas. Whereas I'm not advocating keeping a manager if it is obvious that he's not up to the job, I don't believe rafa's time has come just yet. If we managed to sign one of the top managers in the game, which I believe rafa is, we gotta keep him and show some patience, and let him build his dynasty. Otherwise we'll be spending more money than man united and forever playing catch up to them.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:04 am

Well since the question has been asked twice now, I might as well answer it. I think we need a manager and ownership who are committed absolutely to us winning the league. Within the next couple of seasons, unless we do something about it Manchester United are going to overtake our total and my feeling is that if they do we will never peg them back. The Champions League may carry more cash built into the prizes, but the League is the one which carries the kudos for me.

So who do we go for if we do look elsewhere? Well the first question is who is available? Personally I wouldn't necessarily rule anyone out, and I wouldn't rule anyone in. If Mourinho is available however, it is only the thought that giving him the job would be a body blow to our current manager which would make me think twice about appointing him. From a football point of view, although I have found him nausiating in the past, he wouldn't for me be persona non grata by any means. Neither would any name that got thrown up however, all managers would be worthy of consideration and ought to be judged on their pedigree.

Now that last sentence will cause the Rafa supporters, of which there are still many, to talk about our current managers pedigree and ask the question "well why don't we stick with what we've got?" For me, the answer is quite simple. If you are outgunned in the transfer market by clubs with more spending power than you can muster (which we are and look like we are going to continue to be for the forseeable) then it seems to me you have two slim chances of success in a league scenario. Firstly, you could develop young players almost from scratch and go with a playing style which allows them to flourish, while trusting them over an extended run in the team to eventually form a unit and produce the goods. Arsenal are an example of this approach, but it requires an awful lot of patience and a shrewdness in the transfer market which is in all probability unrealistic to expect any manager to match. The second and most likely scenario is that you concentrate your meagre rescources on building a smaller group of players, less in number but higher in quality. Having put together that group of players, you play them continuously and allow them to find a rhythm and a team spirit which allows them the maximum opportunity to cope in adversity. You forge that "never say die" spirit, that "us against the World" mentality and hope that when injuries and tiredness kick in, you can stick the odd kid in here and there and get through.

We might not win it with the second approach, but at least we'd have a chance in my opinion. In all honesty and given our predicament, we can't afford to have millions of pounds worth of talent playing one game in five. We need a first team squad of eighteen players and some of the much vaunted youngsters can make up the rest.

It is this second approach which represents our most realistic chance of winning the title, but in any case I don't think the current manager is likely to adopt either method. If you are out-hit financially, the very best way to make it obvious is to try and build two teams rather then one and then rotate them continuosly throughout the year. If youa re going to go down the route of the second method I talked about, then Mourinho is certainly capable, and if he is available then I would have thought it would be foolish to not consider him on the grounds that he can be annoying to listen to when he's not your manager.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:49 am

I think you'd see Rafa reduce player-rotation ever so slightly if we had the capacity to sign players of a similar value as the Manc's and Chelsea on a reguar basis.

It's unreasonable to ask Rafa to 'do a Wenger', or any other manager for that matter, he has a knack of spotting quality youngsters and building quality sides (although he has signed some right turkeys aswell), but sometimes it's at the expense of time, and trophies.

I'd wait until the summer, assuming we go on a decent cup run and get fourth I'd keep Rafa as the manager. Basically, I don't necessarily agree with Rafa's approach to EPL games (i.e. it's not what I'd do), but I try and rationalise his approach on the basis that he is significantly more experienced than any of us when it comes to football, and if it was just that simple - every Tom, Dick and Harry who can talk the talk like some do on this forum, would be successful football managers. I don't mind player-rotation at all, I can tolerate that, I do however have reservations about the alteration of the system and formation.

I think you can rotate players game-to-game at more or less the same rate as Rafa does, but whilst keeping a balanced formation and system that suits the players within it, and still be successful in the Premier League, but to do so you'd require a fair bit more quality. Would Rafa alter the system and formation to the same extent as he does if he had more quality at his disposal? I think he'd temper it a little, because he'd know what he'd be getting and where a particular player is most effective. You could argue that with quality comes a greater degree of versatility and therefore the players would be able to adapt to any tweaks to the system. Any major alterations, and I'm not so sure. It would depend on the nature of the alterations also. I think if he had a nailed on left winger for example, he'd keep him there more often than he does with any of our current left-sided options. Similarly, if he had a nailed on Torres, or near-Torres quality second striker he'd keep him there more often than he does currently - by quite a margin I reckon. Torres can adapt, he can play deep, he can play on the edge of the opposition defence, he can drift wide, he can do almost anything - because he has the quality. Just as Gerrard can. It's partly but in quite a large way IMO the inconsistency and lack of adaptability of our current second strikers, and players in other positions that, IMHO, leads to indecision and subsequently more changes.

Ultimately though, we're probably looking at getting in a left winger, a right winger, a second striker and a possibly a left-back. Certainly long-term I see it being that way. At the very least, a second striker and a left-winger are imperative this summer. They've been two positions that form the crux of our imbalances and inabilitiies to break sides down.

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