Liverpool FC Forum

[nobybob]

So no other manager out there could actually keep us in a title race?  No other Manager could find better players than Kuyt, Crouch, Pennant for the money spent on them? Rafa aint infallible and has made some poor buys.  U may say its down to lack of funds but to me its also down to poor judgment. Rafa seemed more than happy with his squad at the start of the season as did the fans yet 6 months later and suddenly more money needs to be spent.  I agree that our squad isn't good enough but rafa has bought the players and has to live or die buy those decisions.  The answer is not just to give him more money.  Other questions need to be answered and I dont think Rafa can deliver us the title regardless if he got more money.  We play too defensive under Rafa and it doesnt matter what players we have it will always be that way.

Name another manager that would win us the title under this crop of players we currently have, then. I still haven't heard one single name, and don't say Jose. If anyone thinks he can do better than Rafa with the current team is mental.

Hello Red is spot on!

OK Here are some names of managers who would do better in the league than Rafa:

Ferguson
Wenger
Mouriniho
O'Neill
Ramos
Erikson

Just to name managers from the Prem league.

How you guys still have faith in Rafa is beyond comprehension. How you can you defend a manager who never promotes youth players to the squad despite the fact that they have won the youth cup twice and who also keeps playing Kuyt??

I can kind of accept the yanks wanting to get rid of rafa they are at the end of the day ignorant of what Liverpool really  is. OK they may have been to a few games they may have seen a few videos spoke to a few ex players etc but that's it.

But us the fans we have no excuse we have lived the history we have been there , we've felt the ecstasy and at times the pain. For most of us LFC is an integral part of our lives ,like family and friends , how could the yanks ever understand that???

Now some fans are turning on RAFA. One question who would you replace him with ??  who has done as much for us as RAFA?? who could give us that instant success we crave?? is there some one can give us all what we want with no mistakes, i seriously doubt it.
has Rafa made mistakes !most definitely, but he has something that maureen and the other names being spouted don't have THE MAN LOVES THE CLUB,THE FANS ,THE CITY, enough to put up with all the sh-t he has taken and guess what i love the man right back if only for that.

[bigmick]

People get more and more vehement about their position as the debate on whichever subject is currently doing the rounds intensifies. It was like the rotation thing, anybody who disagreed with the way the manager was doing things was an idiot, clueless, a knee-jerker and a whole host of other things. Well a couple of years down the track, you don't get that so often these days and there seems to be a general acceptance that it is at the very least, reasonable to wonder if perhaps we do over rotate just a fraction. People can make their own minds up, but at least we're allowed to debate it now without being slagged from all angles.

A little while ago I said that in my view we were out of the title race and a similar scenario was played out. Not many people dispute it now, but at the time it was a bitter pill to swallow and there was a fair bit of over reaction to what was after all, an opinion. I've long said that in my opinion it is impossible for a football team to challenge for the English Premier League whilst employing the methods that Rafa chooses to, that has been my stance since pretty much the day he came here but no matter, saying we were out of the title race this season was a step too far at the time.

Now the debate doing the rounds (from a football point of view) is one regarding the managers position. Some people believe that we are unlikely to mount a title challenge under Rafa (that "some" includes me as I've already said) and therefore should consider options at the end of the season, while others think that we should stick with the current manager as he will deliver a challenge. They bellieve that at the very least he deserves to have a proper go with proper backing given his achievements in other competitions.

Now from my side of the fence, I can totally understand anyone who has an opposite view on this to my own. I don't agree with them, but I can appreciate their argument 100%. Additionally, there is the possibility that they are right and I am wrong. Lifes like that. What I do find a bit tiresome though, are the constant attempts to discredit an opposing view. Those who are considering the managers position (with fairly obvious exceptions) are not clueless in most cases, neither are they knee jerkers or idiots. I suppose though things being as they are, we'll have to endure a couple of months of name calling, belittlement, pigeon holing and the like before it becomes a subject which is fair enough to debate. Once we get to that point, perhaps then we can all be sensible.


One last thing. For ages and ages anti-rotationers were answering the same points over and over. YOU CAN'T PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME! yes, I know. There were others too but I want to try and keep this post under a couple of thousand words. The current ones visa vis the manager are, in no particular order. So you want to change the manager in mid season? (I'm not sure many if anybody does). Who would you bring in then? (it would kind of depend who is available whenever the current manager leaves, be it in the Summer or in ten years time). If Rafa leaves all the players will leave as well, (Erm, I just think this is kind of unlikely and I'll leave that one there).

Lets support the team and the manager until the end of the season. When these threads come up though, lets try and at least respect other peoples rights tro have a view which opposes our own. As other debates have shown, the more vehemently people defend their position and ridicule all detractors, the higher the risk of looking foolish in the fullness of time.

[Sabre]

Fair enough Bigmick. That's a reasonable petition. I respect every opinion that has a proper respect to Rafa.

I find that saying that he must leave is ok, it's just an opinion. Saying the situation is not good enough aswell. I just ask some respect as in don't call him clueless, or an idiot, or to discredit the ones who defend the other position, as you have said, because I've spotted aswell some disrespect in the past in the other way.

[redtrader74]

I've long said that in my opinion it is impossible for a football team to challenge for the English Premier League whilst employing the methods that Rafa chooses to,

Hi Mick, in less than 1000 words   ( sorry it was a light hearted dig), can you please explain why you believe this? Maybe i have missed an explaination previously, but i have read this often from you, but without reason.....not including 'we have not challenged for the league so far' what makes the EPL so unique? I know its a little off topic, so you can reply in the rotation thread IF you do.

In regard to the belittlement etc. I know that from where you sit it may seem one way, but its not, the protagonists are usually on a wind up, and are just as abusive in their own way. I suppose in the way posters who will say they survived abuse in the past for their 'foresight' only to be 'proven right now' when no proof has indeed been provided, get right under my skin.

[bigmick]

I've long said that in my opinion it is impossible for a football team to challenge for the English Premier League whilst employing the methods that Rafa chooses to,

Hi Mick, in less than 1000 words   ( sorry it was a light hearted dig), can you please explain why you believe this? Maybe i have missed an explaination previously, but i have read this often from you, but without reason.....not including 'we have not challenged for the league so far' what makes the EPL so unique? I know its a little off topic, so you can reply in the rotation thread IF you do.

In regard to the belittlement etc. I know that from where you sit it may seem one way, but its not, the protagonists are usually on a wind up, and are just as abusive in their own way. I suppose in the way posters who will say they survived abuse in the past for their 'foresight' only to be 'proven right now' when no proof has indeed been provided, get right under my skin.

I will answer that one Red in the rotation thread as you suggest, but I think in the last part of your question, the bit with the  you've missed my point a bit.

I would accept 100% that nobody has been categorically proven right or otherwise on any subject. You could probably argue that nobody ever will, as we'll never know one way or another what would have happened if for instance we hadn't ever given Rafa the job but had given it to Glen Roeder instead. We can guess, but even wining the Champions league hasn't proven Rafa was a better pick, who knows what Glen would have achieved   

My point is not that anybody was right or wrong about rotation, (there are a number of perople of which you are probably one, who argue it is still unproven either way) but simply that I find the initial howls of derision which inevitably accompany the debate somewhat unecessary.

As far as "surviving abuse",    maybe I over-dramatised it a bit but it does get a bit wearing. It's the same when we discuss players, you do an "I know it's early thread" and you can be certain you'll get a bunch of people saying "it's far too early to judge", "get behind the team FFS". Six months later and you're in a Kuyt situation, or a Morientes scenario whereby it's suddently OK to talk about a subject without being derided.

Quite simply those who think Rafa is the man for the job are entitled to do so. I would also guess that a tthe moment they sit is a fairly comfortable majority. Those who dare to think a bit differently though, don't always (although they do sometimes I'll grant you  ) deserve the abuse. They will though, no doubt survive it, right or wrong.

[redtrader74]

Well the swathes of numb nuts who offer very little reasoned arguement are evident on whichever side of a discussion you sit on. Its a matter of perspective we will all notice the derision against a point we agree with rather than the opposite.

So far as the R discussion the apparent pro's (i fcking hate the term ) i will dare to suggest, differ from the other boat on the whole in regards as to how much it affects the team. I say this because nearly all the committed (not to the asylum) supporters have all questioned a team change. Also if we must criticise Rafas ways, then they should be dissected, Team selection, rotating and formations are all separate entities and i would argue that formations and poor selection of those formations has cost us far more than rotation. Add to that the owners participation and i don't think we can really judge the manager this year.

[jeffiroquai]

Yeah I think we need money as you can never have enough but Rafa has spent £140m (approx) which imo is enough to at least make a challenge, put it this way we've spent more than enough to be getting into fights for 4th place with Everton and Villa, it's not good enough 

You're looking at it the wrong way.  We are fighting for 4th place right now because of the troubles off the field.  Rafa is also still building the ideal team why cant people see that?  Let's not forget that Man U, Chelsea, and Arsenal have also improved over last year.  Why should we suddenly expect the title challenge when teams like Chelsea and Man U are allowed to buy world class talents but we've only bought Torres to add to our pretty average team. 

Rafa needs more time and funds.  Just this summer we started to heavily rebuild the youth academy.  We've brought in a lot of highly rated youngster.  We should not forget that some of them will break into the first team in a couple of years, don't forget that.

Many laughed at  Wenger a couple of seasons ago when the could barely get 4th place and now look where they are.  I know a lot of ignorant Arsenal fans who were calling for Wenger's head but some more intelligent Arsenal supporters knew the team was in a process of rebuilding and they were willing to give him time.  They stuck with their manager through the through the storm and now they are rewarded for it.

Rp, we were fighting for 4th place long before this off field trouble came about.  The owners are an easy scapegoat at this point in the season and I think that is an easy excuse for fans and players to point to when they are simply not getting it done on the pitch.  Unfortunately we have owners who are learning the game, a manager who is stubborn in his ways and sees the oppotunity in ownership to show himself as a victim, and players who simply are not living up to the wages they pull in each week.  It is easy to find an excuse, it is hard to use adversity to step above yourself and excel to be the best.

Point fingers at whomever you want, but G&H don't pick the squad, nor do they run out on the pitch.  The true finger in this mess needs to be pointed at everyone in the club, from boardroom to bootroom.  Dumping money on the next big thing in the market is not going to cure the problems at this club.  Every single employee of this glorious club needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves what it is going to take to bring this team to the top, and do it.

[LFC2007]

Yeah I think we need money as you can never have enough but Rafa has spent £140m (approx) which imo is enough to at least make a challenge, put it this way we've spent more than enough to be getting into fights for 4th place with Everton and Villa, it's not good enough 

You're looking at it the wrong way.  We are fighting for 4th place right now because of the troubles off the field.  Rafa is also still building the ideal team why cant people see that?  Let's not forget that Man U, Chelsea, and Arsenal have also improved over last year.  Why should we suddenly expect the title challenge when teams like Chelsea and Man U are allowed to buy world class talents but we've only bought Torres to add to our pretty average team. 

Rafa needs more time and funds.  Just this summer we started to heavily rebuild the youth academy.  We've brought in a lot of highly rated youngster.  We should not forget that some of them will break into the first team in a couple of years, don't forget that.

Many laughed at  Wenger a couple of seasons ago when the could barely get 4th place and now look where they are.  I know a lot of ignorant Arsenal fans who were calling for Wenger's head but some more intelligent Arsenal supporters knew the team was in a process of rebuilding and they were willing to give him time.  They stuck with their manager through the through the storm and now they are rewarded for it.

Rp, we were fighting for 4th place long before this off field trouble came about.  The owners are an easy scapegoat at this point in the season and I think that is an easy excuse for fans and players to point to when they are simply not getting it done on the pitch.  Unfortunately we have owners who are learning the game, a manager who is stubborn in his ways and *sees the oppotunity in ownership to show himself as a victim*, and players who simply are not living up to the wages they pull in each week.  It is easy to find an excuse, it is hard to use adversity to step above yourself and excel to be the best.

Point fingers at whomever you want, but G&H don't pick the squad, nor do they run out on the pitch.  The true finger in this mess needs to be pointed at everyone in the club, from boardroom to bootroom.  Dumping money on the next big thing in the market is not going to cure the problems at this club.  Every single employee of this glorious club needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves what it is going to take to bring this team to the top, and do it.

The owners are an easy scapegoat for poor results, unquestionably though off the field activities have probably had quite an unsettling effect on the club, and more specifically - the team and manager. Our owners approached Kilnnsmann back in November, before the Reading game. It's quite conceivable that Rafa was made aware of that fact back then - directly or indirectly. We weren't fighting for fourth place back then, 7 pts off the top with game in hand. Off the field troubles were evident well before now. They've only been exacerbated by our naive, amateurish owners in recent times.

There's been a gradual build up of negative publicity, instigated by our owners. *You're implying that Rafa has used this publicity to portray himself as a victim, thus trying to offset culpability for results on the pitch. He's not, if there's anything you can take from Rafa's time at the club, it's that he's driven to succeed and is very sincere. I think that comment shows a lack of judgement on your part.*

[maguskwt]

Fair enough Bigmick. That's a reasonable petition. I respect every opinion that has a proper respect to Rafa.

I find that saying that he must leave is ok, it's just an opinion. Saying the situation is not good enough aswell. I just ask some respect as in don't call him clueless, or an idiot, or to discredit the ones who defend the other position, as you have said, because I've spotted aswell some disrespect in the past in the other way.

absolutely spot on Sabre...

Newton's third law is true even on an internet forum...

[66-1112520797]

I suppose in the way posters who will say they survived abuse in the past for their 'foresight' only to be 'proven right now' when no proof has indeed been provided, get right under my skin.

No proof FFS ! What rock have you been under for the last four years.

TBH its posters like you who get under my skin, who cant see the obvious right infront of them, the fact that we're yet again miles behind the league leaders is proof enough that rotation isnt going to win us the league, what do you want scientic bl.oody research done on it FFS. Ah but thats right, play the G&H card, blame it on a blip, blame it on injurey or blame it on a lack of funds! But whatever you do dont blame it on rotation as there still isnt any proof, well as sure as a bear s.hits in the woods, rotation will not WIN you the league.


Its funny as the pr0 rotationalists had all gone quiet for the best part of two months and had silenced right down to the point where I think they even doubted rotation. But thankfully for them this debacle thats going on right now, seems to be the perfect opportunity for them to bring up the rotation jargan. Your now piping up this rotation thing as you seem to think you have a valid excuse for it. I might say on that notion your probably quite happy with whats going on at the club just to be proven right Redtrader.

[redtrader74]

I suppose in the way posters who will say they survived abuse in the past for their 'foresight' only to be 'proven right now' when no proof has indeed been provided, get right under my skin.

No proof FFS ! What rock have you been under for the last four years.

TBH its posters like you who get under my skin, who cant see the obvious right infront of them, the fact that we're yet again miles behind the league leaders is proof enough that rotation isnt going to win us the league, what do you want scientic bl.oody research done on it FFS. Ah but thats right, play the G&H card, blame it on a blip, blame it on injurey or blame it on a lack of funds! But whatever you do dont blame it on rotation as there still isnt any proof, well as sure as a bear s.hits in the woods, rotation will not WIN you the league.


Its funny as the pr0 rotationalists had all gone quiet for the best part of two months and had silenced right down to the point where I think they even doubted rotation. But thankfully for them this debacle thats going on right now, seems to be the perfect opportunity for them to bring up the rotation jargan. Your now piping up this rotation thing as you seem to think you have a valid excuse for it. I might say on that notion your probably quite happy with whats going on at the club just to be proven right Redtrader.

Predictable and 

[66-1112520797]

says the protagonist. 

[redtrader74]

says the protagonist. 

Well at least its led to you learning a new word 

Just taking the p iss, not DING DONGing

[Toffeehater]

4 years is not enough for a manager... give rafa 2 more years... and it's not like he has won zero trophies in 4 years... just because we don't want the mancs to overtake us in league championships we shouldn't be sacking a world class manager... look far... not near...

Spot on mate , ppl seem to forget that ferguson had not much success until his seventh season and rafa has won us something in each season be it the charity shield or a chmapions league medal , we have also been to 2 champions league finals with 3 years at rafa at helm , it took wenger almost his whole career so far to get there and even then he could not win it , ferguson same except that he managed to win , rafa 2 finals 1 , victory with very medoicre money spent compared to the rest

As for this season , i am not astounded by the results , we have a better squad but yet we seem to be doing worse , rafa has to learn that u can't take small teams lightly and that has cost us many times this season , i personally would give rafa 2 more season and if no premier league crown by then well ....

[Toffeehater]

Yeah I think we need money as you can never have enough but Rafa has spent £140m (approx) which imo is enough to at least make a challenge, put it this way we've spent more than enough to be getting into fights for 4th place with Everton and Villa, it's not good enough 

You're looking at it the wrong way.  We are fighting for 4th place right now because of the troubles off the field.  Rafa is also still building the ideal team why cant people see that?  Let's not forget that Man U, Chelsea, and Arsenal have also improved over last year.  Why should we suddenly expect the title challenge when teams like Chelsea and Man U are allowed to buy world class talents but we've only bought Torres to add to our pretty average team. 

Rafa needs more time and funds.  Just this summer we started to heavily rebuild the youth academy.  We've brought in a lot of highly rated youngster.  We should not forget that some of them will break into the first team in a couple of years, don't forget that.

Many laughed at  Wenger a couple of seasons ago when the could barely get 4th place and now look where they are.  I know a lot of ignorant Arsenal fans who were calling for Wenger's head but some more intelligent Arsenal supporters knew the team was in a process of rebuilding and they were willing to give him time.  They stuck with their manager through the through the storm and now they are rewarded for it.

good post